Praying to saints past?

[winsome]

(treeoflife;54806)
Excuse you, but I never said anything different. Don't insult me by saying that I am "accepting his truth". You lie. And, if you say otherwise, you lie more. Of course we are conscious and alive in heaven... but the saints who are there, have died, and they cannot hear us, and cannot hear our prayers. The debate is not whether we are alive in heaven... of course we are, in our heavenly bodies. The debate is whether we can hear the prayers of all people, being omnipresent or having that power.Believe your fabricated myths if you wish, but your prayers fall onto deaf ears... accept to God, who alone has the power to hear and answer our prayers.
You keep referring to dead saints. But if I misunderstood that as you not accepting them as alive in heaven then I apologise for my mistake.(treeoflife;54806)
Still waiting for scripture please. Though, I will say this... I do not know that the saints are *currently* conscious in heaven... I do not know one way or the other. But, I am certain from scripture, they are most certainly not receiving our prayers. You and everyone else who believes that, makes it up out of your own hearts.
See post #36

 

[Christina]

(winsome;54774)
treeoflife, krissWhy do you continue to contradict scripture by calling the saints that have gone before us to heaven dead when they are alive?I made this post earlier and you have avoided answering it.Is your failure to respond because scripture is clear that they are alive but you just will not accept what scripture says?LGF has shown you many passages that show that the saints in heaven are alive.Let me add some more:What does Jesus say?Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28)The soul does not die, it can only be destroyed in hellThis is a non argument its not even on subject its talking about the second death we are not to be concerned with our physical death but death of our soul The fact that we will all become spirit soul bodies (1 Cor 15) at the second coming has nothing to do with the saints in heaven hearing prayers of the living today What does Paul say?my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you. (Phil 1:23-24)Why would Paul desire to depart [this life] and be with Christ if he would only be dead with him? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord no one denies this No one denies the soul/spirit lives on with the Lordbut this still has nothing to do with the hearing the living again a non argumentAs treeoflife pointed out earlier To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8)What does the writer of Hebrews say?“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel”. (Heb 12:22-24).What does John say in Revelation about who is in heaven?The twenty four elders are worshipping God in Rev 4And what are they doing?And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall before the one who is seated on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing,“You are worthy, our Lord and God,to receive glory and honor and power,for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” (Rev 4:9-11)The multitude from every nation dressed in white before the throne in Rev 7 They cried out in a loud voice, saying,“Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (Rev 7:10)andFor this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple, (Rev 7:15)They all sound very much alive to me.What else is going on in heaven?“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
My answers are in Red Above. you are confusing subjects the dead Saints and all are with the Lord this is True, but that in NO WAY means they have anything to do with living including interceding for anyone in fact scripture says the opposite the Dead KNOW NOTHING of the living under the Sun (on earth). No one said they do not know of the things happening in heaven, In fact we have an example in Lazzarus he was aware of where he was and what was going on there, but he wasn't aware of what was happening on earth. You are taking the happenings in heaven and trying to apply them to earth and flesh. We are told the DEAD Know Nothing of the earth, We are even told there is a gulf that can not be crossed between the two. Rev 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? They cried out from under the Alter how long O LordThey are asking God how Long before they are avenged, they clearly do not know, as they are not aware of things on earth so they are asking God how long. Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. God tells them they should keep resting for a little longer Do you see they are resting NOT INTERCEEDING for anyone.

 

[Christina]

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. Lets look a little deeper into this verse We see the saints are resting what does this Word rest mean exactly We see it is the greek word anapauō .....1) to cause or permit one to cease from any movement or labour in order to recover and collect his strength2) to give rest, refresh, to give one's self rest, take rest3) to keep quiet, of calm and patient expectationThe saints are regaining strength resting cease from their work keeping quiet Not hearing prayers not interceding, THEY ARE AT REST.

 

[winsome]

krissThis is a non argument its not even on subject its talking about the second death we are not to be concerned with our physical death but death of our soul The fact that we will all become spirit soul bodies (1 Cor 15) at the second coming has nothing to do with the saints in heaven hearing prayers of the living today No way is it talking about a second death. Jesus is sending out the apostles on a mission and warning them of the persecutions they will face. He warning them not to be afraid of the death of their body here and now. What is important is that they do not allow Satan to destroy their souls.It is relevant because it shows that our souls remain alive when our bodies die.Like TreeofLife you keep referring to the saints in heaven as deadTo be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord no one denies this No one denies the soul/spirit lives on with the Lordbut this still has nothing to do with the hearing the living again a non argumentGood so you are agreeing that the Saints are alive in heaven. We can put that one to rest then.Now perhaps you can answer my post #36 about how the Saints in heaven hear opur prayers.

 

[Christina]

Well you are wrong winsome it most certainly is talking about the second death. It has nothing to do with sending out the Apostels. There is only one who can destroy your soul and that is God Satan/sin can be the reason for this..... but he does not have the power to kill your soul.. to kill ones soul means you cease to exist will not even be remembered..killing not your flesh body but your very soul.. this is what God will do to Satan. Only God has the power to destroy ones very soul/spirit body.There will be a day of judgement for those who continue in rebellion against the principles of God's government. And thet will be a punishment as a result of that judgement. The Bible calls that punishment the "Second Death.""And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15......But reguardless you are arguing a different point/subject No one has ever said that souls do not live on after death. We all belief that. thats not even the argument. Its wether the dead are aware of the prayers of the living and we are told they KNOW NOTHING of the living? They are resting. You can protest all you like but that is what the scripture says Praying to the dead is useless in Vain. They know nothing of earthly things, and with God resting,being quite, not working,building their strengh. My best advice to my catholic friends is why bother? why take a chance? even if you are not convinced of this truth being Gods word. Pray only to God in the name of Christ, You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

[Letsgofishing]

(kriss;54812)
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. Lets look a little deeper into this verse We see the saints are resting what does this Word rest mean exactly We see it is the greek word anapauō .....1) to cause or permit one to cease from any movement or labour in order to recover and collect his strength2) to give rest, refresh, to give one's self rest, take rest3) to keep quiet, of calm and patient expectationThe saints are regaining strength resting cease from their work keeping quiet Not hearing prayers not interceding, THEY ARE AT REST.
first, let’s put that verse in context. "9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Note that “they” are “those who had been slain for the word of God.” Not all saints are slain martyrs. Our Lady, for example, died a natural death. Second,as you have said the word “rest” in v. 11 means to relax (to give rest, refresh, to give one's self rest, take rest). It’s the same as Sunday being a day of rest – but nothing prevents us from doing good works on Sunday, just as Jesus often healed on the Sabbath. So this verse does not mean these particular martyrs do not pray for us and again let’s look at two more passages in Revelation: 5:8 and 8:3. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; Rev 5:8 (RSV) And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; Rev 8:3 (RSV) The prayers of the saints ascend before the throne. Obviously then, saints do pray! Where does it say that they cannot pray for us, which is all we ask them to do? Take a look at the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:19-31. Note that the rich man prays to Abraham, who is one of the saints, and Jesus nowhere says this is wrong. and lets not forget God Rested on the seventh Day!! . .yet I think He was still perfectly cognizant and aware on that day, no?Your brother in ChristRyan Fitz

 

[Christina]

jamesrageI deleted your post it was out of line you are entitled to your personal opinion but your post breaks our rules.

 

[Christina]

(Letsgofishing;54831)
first, let’s put that verse in context. "9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Note that “they” are “those who had been slain for the word of God.” Not all saints are slain martyrs. Our Lady, for example, died a natural death. These are the saints God is speaking to as they are given the white Robes, Mary was named a Saint by the catholic church.. Men... not God, No where in the bible are we ever told Mary is a saint that is doctrine of the church alone. Whether she is or isnt doesnt even matter we are never told to pray for her to intercede for us anymore than any other dead personSecond,as you have said the word “rest” in v. 11 means to relax (to give rest, refresh, to give one's self rest, take rest). It’s the same as Sunday being a day of rest – but nothing prevents us from doing good works on Sunday, just as Jesus often healed on the Sabbath. So this verse does not mean these particular martyrs do not pray for us The word rest is as I have presented reguardless of where else it may be used it still means rest, from ones work they are not interceding they are resting. and again let’s look at two more passages in Revelation: 5:8 and 8:3. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; Rev 5:8 (RSV) And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; Rev 8:3 (RSV) The prayers of the saints ascend before the throne. Obviously then, saints do pray! Where does it say that they cannot pray for us, which is all we ask them to do? These are heavenly things again no one said things are not happening in heaven. But to claim the saints hear your prayers has no basis in scripture. God says there is one medator Christ it also says he reads one heart the saints can not do this? How can God read the sincerity of your prayers if devlivered through a thrid person???It says the dead Know Nothing of the earthly matters. They are either resting or doing heavenly things. If you claim the saints can read ones heart also you are getting dangerously close to giving them godly qualities resevered for the Lord aloneTake a look at the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:19-31. Note that the rich man prays to Abraham, who is one of the saints, and Jesus nowhere says this is wrong. and lets not forget God Rested on the seventh Day!! . .yet I think He was still perfectly cognizant and aware on that day, no?Your brother in ChristRyan Fitz
My Answeres to scriptures are above in red And where was the rich man? in a good place? are we to use him as our example???And yes God rested on the 7th Day from what?? his Work. yet according to the church the saints are not resting but working interceeding with prayers of men. God says they are resting.You contradict your own argument The fact the 24 elders are holding all the prayers of the saints of all times does not mean the Saints are hearing the prayers and interceeding for the living I do not no how you would claim this.Their prayers are their prayers,same as mine are mine and yours are yours. Isnt that rather presumptuious to assume that the saints own prayers are those other than their own??? Im sorry LGF there is no where we are encouraged to do this, nor does it say asking/praying for the saints to interceed is anything but a teaching of men.

 

[Letsgofishing]

So Kriss, just to be sure I know what you believe do you believe in Soul Sleep???

 

[Christina]

No LGF if your talking the soul sleeping between death and judgement

 

[Jordan]

(Letsgofishing;54843)
So Kriss, just to be sure I know what you believe do you believe in Soul Sleep???
I know I don't. Why? Cause soul can't literally sleep at all.

 

[winsome]

(kriss;54809)
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? They cried out from under the Alter how long O LordThey are asking God how Long before they are avenged, they clearly do not know, as they are not aware of things on earth so they are asking God how long. Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. God tells them they should keep resting for a little longer Do you see they are resting NOT INTERCEEDING for anyone.
Rest can have many meanings. For example the online etymological dictionary gives one of the meanings as "mental peace" which is what is meant here, not having a celestial sleepover. Rest here means peace. They were told be at peace a little longer before they were avenged. This is the peace the world cannot give (Jn 14:27). The word in Hebrew is related to Shalom which means peace.Revelation is symbolic but it tells us in symbolic terms of what is happening in heaven.There is praise and worship by the eldersAnd whenever the living creatures give glory and honour and thanks to the one who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall before the one who is seated on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing,“You are worthy, our Lord and God,to receive glory and honor and power,for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” (Rev 4:9-11)The multitude from every nation dressed in white before the throne are praising God They cried out in a loud voice, saying,“Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (Rev 7:10)andFor this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple (Rev 7:15)There are the martyrs crying out for justice.they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” (Rev 6:10)There are the prayers of the saints (us) are being offered to God. “When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)It's busy up there not a slumber room.

 

[winsome]

(thesuperjag;54846)
I know I don't. Why? Cause soul can't literally sleep at all.
They can't rest in the physical sense either.

 

[winsome]

(kriss;54816)
Well you are wrong winsome it most certainly is talking about the second death.
I'm not wrong but we'll have to leave it as I can see we will not agree.(kriss;54816)
Its wether the dead are aware of the prayers of the living and we are told they KNOW NOTHING of the living? They are resting. You can protest all you like but that is what the scripture says Praying to the dead is useless in Vain. They know nothing of earthly things, and with God resting,being quite, not working,building their strengh. My best advice to my catholic friends is why bother? why take a chance? even if you are not convinced of this truth being Gods word. Pray only to God in the name of Christ, You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Where are we told that the know nothing of the living?And you still haven't responded to my post #36 which explains about the saints in heaven hearing prayers.

 

[winsome]

(kriss;54809)
No one said they do not know of the things happening in heaven, In fact we have an example in Lazzarus he was aware of where he was and what was going on there, but he wasn't aware of what was happening on earth. You are taking the happenings in heaven and trying to apply them to earth and flesh. We are told the DEAD Know Nothing of the earth, We are even told there is a gulf that can not be crossed between the two. .
How do you work out that Lazarus didn’t know what was happening on earth? I don’t see that in the text. As to the gulf or chasm, that was “so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us” (Lk 16:26). But we are no talking about someone trying to cross from heaven to earth so your point has no relevance.

 

[Christina]

(winsome;54887)
How do you work out that Lazarus didn’t know what was happening on earth? I don’t see that in the text. As to the gulf or chasm, that was “so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us” (Lk 16:26). But we are no talking about someone trying to cross from heaven to earth so your point has no relevance.
It has revelance because your right he didnt see earth thats why its not written There is nothing written that Saints in heaven are involved with earthly matters thats is the point. And your above post on rest is typical of mens scripture twisting to see what they want.The way you can dismiss what the OT says when it doesnt fit your traditions.It is one greek word that means what it means period. I told you there was no sense arguing this You are not going to change my mind and Im not going to change yours If you want a thrid party talking to God for you be my guest but do not try to convince us the Bible teaches it. We have one who intercedes for us and that is Jesus Christ.

 

[winsome]

(kriss;54889)
It has revelance because your right he didnt see earth thats why its not written There is nothing written that Saints in heaven are involved with earthly matters thats is the point.
Pardon me but there is nothing in the text to say anything about what Lazarus sees or does not see. All the interaction is between Abraham and the rich man. (kriss;54889)
And your above post on rest is typical of mens scripture twisting to see what they want.The way you can dismiss what the OT says when it doesnt fit your traditions.
Where have I twisted scripture?Where have I dismissed the OT to fit in with my "traditions"You make accusations but do nopt back them up with facts.(kriss;54889)
It is one greek word that means what it means period. I told you there was no sense arguing this You are not going to change my mind and Im not going to change yours
What does your own post say?(kriss;54812)
Lets look a little deeper into this verse We see the saints are resting what does this Word rest mean exactly We see it is the greek word anapauō .....1) to cause or permit one to cease from any movement or labour in order to recover and collect his strength2) to give rest, refresh, to give one's self rest, take rest3) to keep quiet, of calm and patient expectation
What is option 3? to keep quiet, of calm and patient expectationExactly, patient expectation. It is about their crying out for vengeance. They are not resting by doing nothing, they are to wait in patient expectation (in peace) "until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed."But it doesn't say they are to stop interceeding and it says nothing about the others who are interceeding. (kriss;54889)
If you want a thrid party talking to God for you be my guest but do not try to convince us the Bible teaches it. We have one who intercedes for us and that is Jesus Christ.
So you won't ask your friends (third parties) to pray for you then?

 

[Christina]

It never says they were intercedeing it says they were resting NOT INTERCEDING they are resting from there work you have not presented a single scripture that shows the Saints in heaven intercede all you have proved is that that their are saints in heaven we already knew that. You have decided that Ecc. 9 which says the dead KNOW nothing of the the things under the sun(on earth ) doesnt count.You have decided that rest doesnt mean what it says it means. Give me one scripture that says we are to pray to the dead saints because they will intercede for us.Or please move on to other things this is a doctrine of the catholic church not the Bible concept.We do not study religious doctrines here...We study scripture and the Bible and this is not a Biblical conceptPlease see rules at linkhttp://www.christianityboard.com/announcement.php?f=5

 

[winsome]

It never says they were intercedeing it says they were resting NOT INTERCEDING they are resting from there work you have not presented a single scripture that shows the Saints in heaven intercede all you have proved is that that their are saints in heaven we already knew that. You obviously haven't read my previous post so I shal post it again.

You have decided that Ecc. 9 which says the dead KNOW nothing of the the things under the sun(on earth ) doesnt count.

Of course Ecc. 9 is irrelevant. Heaven was closed. THERE WAS NO HUMAN IN HEAVEN.The dead were all in Hades. No-one is suggesting that those in Hades had any knowledge of what is happening on the earth.[QUOTE="kriss;54898] You have decided that rest doesnt mean what it says it means.

You are deciding to hang on to one particluar meaning of rest rather than accept other possibilities which fit the scripture better.[QUOTE="kriss;54898]Give me one scripture that says we are to pray to the dead saints because they will intercede for us.Or please move on to other things this is a doctrine of the catholic church not the Bible concept.We do not study religious doctrines here...We study scripture and the Bible and this is not a Biblical conceptPlease see rules at linkhttp://www.christianityboard.com/announcement.php?f=5[/QUOTE]Well read my post - I''ll post it again.And you haven't responded to my piunt about Lazarus. In fact you keep avoiding responding to my posts.

 

[cfrancis]

I find the use of the "one Mediator" Scripture in this discussion odd. The Saints do not go directly to God the Father, they go to our one mediator, Jesus (who is God). It is the same as asking someone here on earth to pray for you.Also, I find in disscussing this that those who disagree with the intercessio of the Saints impose earthly limits on the heavenly domain: there is no time, no past or present in heaven. The idea of the Saints being overwhelmed with requests is a temporal restraint.