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Pre Marital Sex ?

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by Ricky W, Jun 12, 2007.

  1. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    Protecting me Allah(God), from the evil(satan) that You already cursed.In the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.(B'midbar)
    Standard Christian teaching is that a man may not have sexual relations with a woman who is not his wife, and a woman may not have sexual relations with a man who is not her husband. There is no exception to this.This does not stop a particular teacher from teaching whatever he wishes. It is possible your friend had such a teacher. Most Christians learn what they learn from a teacher, minister, priest, parent, etc.
    1st. [​IMG] So, what is exactly you trying to say ? Is it my protestant friend was mistake by given that statement ?2nd. Now i will asking you regarding on this statemen, are you agree with this of statement or not [​IMG] ?"If there is man which is not yet betroth, entice with his girlfriend (just say it was his girlfriend), then he sleep with her. If this what happen then he must took her to become his wife by giving her a dowry as well. But then if her father was dislike those guy(a man who were sleep with his daughter) and refusing on him, then these guy(a man who were sleep with his daughter), also must give a dowry to her."Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
     
  2. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    Ricky W, you will be very happy with me. I will use your numbers!:angel10: :angel9: :angel1: 1. You need to understand that there are divisions or branches within Christianity. We are not united. We should be, but we are not. As a result, the teaching that a person receives depends on which division they are in. Of course, only one teaching is correct, but that does not change the fact that different teachings are taught. So when you ask me if your friend is mistaken or not, and you told me that he is a Protestant, I don’t know what you are asking. Here are many questions, each of which I will answer:Does the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (one of the many Protestant divisions) teach that premarital sex is a sin? Yes.Does the Anglican Church (another one of the many Protestant divisions) teach that premarital sex is a sin? Yes.Does some small group of 100 people that I’ve never heard of and that calls itself Christian teach that premarital sex is a sin? I have no idea. However, by far the most likely answer is “Yes”.Has there been a general liberalizing tendency in some branches of Christianity, so that things that used to be considered wrong are now being considered okay? Yes.Could this tendency slowly have an effect on the concept of premarital sex that some people have? Maybe.Do most Americans care what Christianity teaches? No. Mostly it is not what matters to them.Am I deeply saddened by the country that I live in? Am I greived by the immoral things I see around me? Yes.Is premarital sex wrong? Yes. Absolutely.Does every Christian on the face of the earth think premarital sex is wrong? No. You can find some that think whatever they want.Does every member of the Lutheran Church think premarital sex is wrong? No. I’m sure you can find some who have convinced themselves that it is okay, in spite of what they have been taught.Is your friend mistaken about premarital sex? Yes. Absolutely.Is your friend mistaken about what the group that he is a member of teaches? Probably Yes.Is your friend mistaken about what his parents taught him? Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on how orthodox his parents were.I know this is a very long list of questions and answers, but I am hoping one of them is the one you were looking for.2. I see that you are discussing a passage from Exodus:
    Exodus 22:16 When a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to be married, and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. 17 But if her father refuses to give her to him, he shall pay an amount equal to the bride-price for virgins.
    I think if a man sleeps with his girlfriend before he marries her, then he has taken something from her. He has done wrong. In some societies, it could become impossible for her to marry once that happens. This is a great harm to her, since most women want to marry and have children. Also, this means her father will need to support her for perhaps the rest of her life. In other societies, the harm is less, but still real. She has not been treated with respect. Also, a child might come from the sex. A child deserves a father and a mother.If a woman has been harmed so that she will be unable to marry, and she will also not be able to work, I think it is fair to ask the man to give money. If he marries her, this will also support her. I think in each case, and in each society, a solution must be found. I think this is what the law there reflects.I agree with the idea of reparations for many sins. A more obvious example is if you steal money from someone, then you must give them money back.
     
  3. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    Protecting me Allah(God), from the evil(satan) that You already cursed.In the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.(B'midbar)
    Ricky W, you will be very happy with me. I will use your numbers! 1. You need to understand that there are divisions or branches within Christianity. We are not united. We should be, but we are not. As a result, the teaching that a person receives depends on which division they are in. Of course, only one teaching is correct, but that does not change the fact that different teachings are taught. So when you ask me if your friend is mistaken or not, and you told me that he is a Protestant, I don’t know what you are asking. Here are many questions, each of which I will answer:Does the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (one of the many Protestant divisions) teach that premarital sex is a sin? Yes.Does the Anglican Church (another one of the many Protestant divisions) teach that premarital sex is a sin? Yes.Does some small group of 100 people that I’ve never heard of and that calls itself Christian teach that premarital sex is a sin? I have no idea. However, by far the most likely answer is “Yes”.Has there been a general liberalizing tendency in some branches of Christianity, so that things that used to be considered wrong are now being considered okay? Yes.Could this tendency slowly have an effect on the concept of premarital sex that some people have? Maybe.Do most Americans care what Christianity teaches? No. Mostly it is not what matters to them.Am I deeply saddened by the country that I live in? Am I greived by the immoral things I see around me? Yes.Is premarital sex wrong? Yes. Absolutely.Does every Christian on the face of the earth think premarital sex is wrong? No. You can find some that think whatever they want.Does every member of the Lutheran Church think premarital sex is wrong? No. I’m sure you can find some who have convinced themselves that it is okay, in spite of what they have been taught.Is your friend mistaken about premarital sex? Yes. Absolutely.Is your friend mistaken about what the group that he is a member of teaches? Probably Yes.Is your friend mistaken about what his parents taught him? Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on how orthodox his parents were.I know this is a very long list of questions and answers, but I am hoping one of them is the one you were looking for.
    Firstably i want you to know, that I knew that in Christian there are several sect which one to the others has a methode of teaching and the perception as well to the bible, and i'm not shock about it.Secondly I do know that pre marital sex was a sinfull according to Catholic, event in Protestant it self, and the most important was to the Gospel it self.However I need to know directly from others christian, what was their opinion in this kind of matter. And as a result just like what i thought [​IMG], and I personaly do agree with you.But still, what is bodering me. I haven't seing Biblical statement/verse(wheter in OT nor NT) that clearly saying pre marital sex was a sin thing. If you have, please show it to meAnd the most closely term and condition which has the same condition was in Exodus 22:16-17.Infact one of my Protestant friend said that verse was the verse that supporting it. And by refering that verse he said that, everyone that want to having sex before married but with condition that at the end (after having sex) they will get married soon with her was Ok. And by the time the guy having it, he will not allow to get married to others woman. That what he said on giving the meaning of that verse.
    2. I see that you are discussing a passage from Exodus:I think if a man sleeps with his girlfriend before he marries her, then he has taken something from her. He has done wrong. In some societies, it could become impossible for her to marry once that happens. This is a great harm to her, since most women want to marry and have children. Also, this means her father will need to support her for perhaps the rest of her life. In other societies, the harm is less, but still real. She has not been treated with respect. Also, a child might come from the sex. A child deserves a father and a mother.If a woman has been harmed so that she will be unable to marry, and she will also not be able to work, I think it is fair to ask the man to give money. If he marries her, this will also support her. I think in each case, and in each society, a solution must be found. I think this is what the law there reflects.I agree with the idea of reparations for many sins. A more obvious example is if you steal money from someone, then you must give them money back.
    It is an interesting statement and argument that you gave there [​IMG]. And thank you for your kind to explain the meaning of that verse to me, thank you very much.However, i do hope you still allowed me to questioned something from your statement above, so i can get more clearly.1st. Which verse that supporting your statement that telling he has done wrong by doing so ?2nd. According to Torah Law, what is the punishment for the guy who were already take advantage to his girlfriend ?Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
     
  4. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    But still, what is bodering me. I haven't seing Biblical statement/verse(wheter in OT nor NT) that clearly saying pre marital sex was a sin thing. If you have, please show it to me.
    There are numerous NT verses that mention “fornication”. The basic English meaning for this word is voluntary sex between two people who aren’t married. This covers the scenario of a boyfriend and girlfriend. I'm not sure how this word would show up in a translation other than English. Thus, the best way to argue about these verses is to say that fornication is a mistranslation. Here are two verses mentioning fornication:
    1 Corinthians 6:18 Shun fornication! Every sin that a person commits is outside the body; but the fornicator sins against the body itself.Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.
    I disagree with your friend. I don’t think the verse from Exodus is supporting the idea of sex before marriage. It is not trying to get men to go out and have premarital sex. Look at the long string of verses before it. They have a theme like the concept of restitution. For example, I don’t take this verse below to be encouraging people to let their farm animals ruin the crops of the farmer who lives next door. The purpose of the verse is to make people try to fix or remedy the situation after it happens.
    Exodus 22:5 When someone causes a field or vineyard to be grazed over, or lets livestock loose to graze in someone else's field, restitution shall be made from the best in the owner's field or vineyard.
    It is not okay to steal from people so long as you hope you’ll be able to pay them back someday. Yes, if you steal from them, then you should pay them back. Saying that is not the same as saying that you may steal from them.I don’t know of a simple, direct verse in the Torah that you could use to easily say that sex before marriage is a sin. If you are using the Torah only, most likely it would have to be deduced that it is a sin. The NT is more helpful in this topic.A person might choose to deduce that premarital sex is like theft, since it follows a string of verses on the topic of theft, restitution, and similar situations.
    1st. Which verse that supporting your statement that telling he has done wrong by doing so ?
    My statement was my own. I think it is wrong. I gather support for my statement that it is wrong from other places than the Torah.
    2nd. According to Torah Law, what is the punishment for the guy who were already take advantage to his girlfriend ?
    None, other than to make restitution, so far as I know. Torah law does not require the community to actively punish every possible sin that a man can do. At least, not that I know of.
     
  5. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    Protecting me Allah(God), from the evil(satan) that You already cursed.In the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.Very well B'midbar, that's a lovely explaination on yours [​IMG]. Now i have more clearly meaning on pre marital sex and it's term and condition on it base on Christian faith ( at least from what you has said [​IMG] ).I do have another question and I think it still has to do with this topic. But i will more specific questioned on Exodus above. And I do hope you still willing to explained this to me B'midbar.1st. Can we said the verse on Exodus 22:16-17 as one of the situation that can be say as pre marital sex ?2nd. Does situation at Exodus 22:16-17 the thing that broke the rule of ten commandments ?Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
     
  6. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    And I do hope you still willing to explained this to me B'midbar.
    Ricky, I will do my best to assist in this matter, if I am able. Premarital sex as discussed in the bible has never been something I’ve thought much about, though.
    1st. Can we said the verse on Exodus 22:16-17 as one of the situation that can be say as pre marital sex ?
    Yes, I consider the verse to be concerning some type of situation of sex before marriage.
    2nd. Does situation at Exodus 22:16-17 the thing that broke the rule of ten commandments ?
    I’m not sure how to answer this one. Christians often use the ten commandments as a way to categorize sins. It is a way to help children learn and understand. For example, under “thou shalt not kill”, you might see abortion, driving drunk, suicide, mutilation, etc. listed as related sins. I think the commandment itself just says “thou shalt not kill (murder)”.Fornication is usually placed in the category of the “thou shalt not commit adultery”. I don’t think the words of the commandment actually say “fornication”. In casual speech, if I were to fornicate, then I would say that I broke the sixth/seventh commandment (numbering systems vary by religious affiliation). This tendency is partly because of how Jesus explains to us about sin. As an example, he shows to us how there is not just adultery:
    Matthew 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
    So a person would say they had broken the ten commandments if they looked with lust. We often treat the ten commandments in this expanded way. Also, Christians view a violation of the law in one point, no matter which one, as a violation of the law (the whole law). We usually don’t care precisely which point of law it was. What we care about is that we sinned.
     
  7. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    Protecting me Allah(God), from the evil(satan) that You already cursed.In the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.(B'midbar)
    Ricky, I will do my best to assist in this matter, if I am able. Premarital sex as discussed in the bible has never been something I’ve thought much about, though.
    Thank you for kindness B'midbar, may God point us His Way to show us the truth was that God has [​IMG]. And another thing Jordan, i think this kind of matter is something that important think to human kind to know and to understand it, because God give His Law to human kind in this world must be has something usefull for us. Beside that, it is the thing that every one knowns well that Westerns was the most place that has a lot of free sex act and that's was most dangerous and sinfull rather then pre marital sex it self.(B'midbar)
    Yes, I consider the verse to be concerning some type of situation of sex before marriage.
    Ok thanks.(B'midbar)
    I’m not sure how to answer this one. Christians often use the ten commandments as a way to categorize sins. It is a way to help children learn and understand. For example, under “thou shalt not kill”, you might see abortion, driving drunk, suicide, mutilation, etc. listed as related sins. I think the commandment itself just says “thou shalt not kill (murder)”.Fornication is usually placed in the category of the “thou shalt not commit adultery”. I don’t think the words of the commandment actually say “fornication”. In casual speech, if I were to fornicate, then I would say that I broke the sixth/seventh commandment (numbering systems vary by religious affiliation). This tendency is partly because of how Jesus explains to us about sin. As an example, he shows to us how there is not just adultery:So a person would say they had broken the ten commandments if they looked with lust. We often treat the ten commandments in this expanded way. Also, Christians view a violation of the law in one point, no matter which one, as a violation of the law (the whole law). We usually don’t care precisely which point of law it was. What we care about is that we sinned.
    So the point is, pre marital sex can be considered as the thing that broke the Ten Commandments Law according to OT, correct ?Is that so, what is the punishment for the one who broke one of the Ten Commandmetns Law according to OT ?Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
     
  8. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    Protecting me Allah(God), from the evil(satan) that You already cursed.In the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.(B'midbar)
    Ricky, I will do my best to assist in this matter, if I am able. Premarital sex as discussed in the bible has never been something I’ve thought much about, though.
    Thank you for kindness B'midbar, may God point us His Way to show us the truth was that God has [​IMG]. And another thing Jordan, i think this kind of matter is something that important think to human kind to know and to understand it, because God give His Law to human kind in this world must be has something usefull for us. Beside that, it is the thing that every one knowns well that Westerns was the most place that has a lot of free sex act and that's was most dangerous and sinfull rather then pre marital sex it self.(B'midbar)
    Yes, I consider the verse to be concerning some type of situation of sex before marriage.
    Ok thanks.(B'midbar)
    I’m not sure how to answer this one. Christians often use the ten commandments as a way to categorize sins. It is a way to help children learn and understand. For example, under “thou shalt not kill”, you might see abortion, driving drunk, suicide, mutilation, etc. listed as related sins. I think the commandment itself just says “thou shalt not kill (murder)”.Fornication is usually placed in the category of the “thou shalt not commit adultery”. I don’t think the words of the commandment actually say “fornication”. In casual speech, if I were to fornicate, then I would say that I broke the sixth/seventh commandment (numbering systems vary by religious affiliation). This tendency is partly because of how Jesus explains to us about sin. As an example, he shows to us how there is not just adultery:Matthew 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So a person would say they had broken the ten commandments if they looked with lust. We often treat the ten commandments in this expanded way. Also, Christians view a violation of the law in one point, no matter which one, as a violation of the law (the whole law). We usually don’t care precisely which point of law it was. What we care about is that we sinned.
    So the point is, pre marital sex can be considered as the thing that broke the Ten Commandments Law according to OT, correct ?Is that so, what is the punishment for the one who broke one of the Ten Commandmetns Law according to OT ?This is only view of mine Regarding on Matthew 5:27-28.Why Jesus(pbuh) give that kind statement then quote one of the Ten Commandments Law as a relevation with Matthew. That's because every fornication or adultery behaviour it's always start from the eyes and after that turn in his/her feeling, and after that it will making them more passion to having sex by the end. Jesus(pbuh) giving that's kind of statement, so later on his followers will be alert on this kind circumstances [​IMG]. And thats why to suggestion to a person if they already has feeling to each other, it's a better think not playing around with it, because the evil will chessing both to having sex by the end. And after that, they will get both done a sin thing.Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
     
  9. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    And another thing Jordan, i think this kind of matter is something that important think to human kind to know and to understand it
    Your reference to Jordan here is confusing to me.I agree that it is important to all people to know the truth about what is right and what is wrong. Knowing this truth is healthy (and useful) for us. [​IMG]
    So the point is, pre marital sex can be considered as the thing that broke the Ten Commandments Law according to OT, correct ?
    Your use of the phrase “according to the OT” means that I don’t know the answer to your question. But see what I wrote below about comparison of punishments.
    Is that so, what is the punishment for the one who broke one of the Ten Commandmetns Law according to OT ?
    I’m not sure if you are asking about punishments that the community gives to the offender, like stoning, or punishments like hell. There is also another thing to consider. God punished the group as a whole because they didn’t keep the covenant, so they as a group got exiled from the Promised Land. It sounds like you mean a punishment that is for a particular individual, that would apply to all individuals everywhere who break a commandment, and not the specific group that God carved for himself by leading them out of slavery from Egypt and to the Land. As far as I know, punishments executed by the community, like stoning, are not the same for each of the ten.For example, gathering wood on the Sabbath led to death by stoning by the community. I can find a similar law that applies to certain rebellious children who don’t obey their parents. Also, there is a verse about if a woman is found to not be a virgin when her husband (her first husband) goes to her bed, and he can prove it, then he can have her stoned to death if he wants. I mention that because it is relevant to our overall discussion, and I failed to mention it before. Theft generally seems to not lead to being stoned. It is punished by paying back four animals for every one that was stolen, or some other figure, or being sold into slavery if they can't pay it. Bearing false witness seems to be punished by whatever the punishment would have been had the other person been convicted, if I recall. So I assume that one is not always death. However, this rule does not hold in the case of the woman who turned out to not be a virgin mentioned just above. If the husband falsely claims she wasn’t a virgin, he is not put to death, which is what her punishment would have been. Instead, the stated result is that he may not ever divorce her. Concerning the commandment about coveting, I don’t know of any punishment like death by stoning for those. I don’t recall any stated punishment in the OT. You’d think it might be mentioned along with theft if it existed, because the thief likely coveted prior to the theft.In summary, the punishments given out by the community don’t seem to be the same. They are not all death by stoning.
    That's because every fornication or adultery behaviour it's always start from the eyes and after that turn in his/her feeling, and after that it will making them more passion to having sex by the end.
    Seeing can lead to thinking, and thinking can lead to action. The correct thing to do is “nip it in the bud” (uh, that means stop right away as soon as the process begins). [​IMG]
     
  10. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    Protecting me Allah(God), from the evil(satan) that You already cursed.In the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    Your reference to Jordan here is confusing to me.
    I'm sorry B, I was mistake. It should point on you, but i have mistake by thinking that you are Jordan(thesuperjag). I do appoligze for it B [​IMG]
    I agree that it is important to all people to know the truth about what is right and what is wrong. Knowing this truth is healthy (and useful) for us.
    Yes, indeed [​IMG].
    Your use of the phrase “according to the OT” means that I don’t know the answer to your question. But see what I wrote below about comparison of punishments.
    Well actually you already giving that, by quoting Jesus(pbuh) statement on Matthew 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.On that verse actually Jesus(pbuh) was trying to explain the meaning or the expand the meaning of the OT law(one of Ten Commandments Law).If we see what the verse already said, then according to Jesus explaination, pre marital sex was also broke one of OT law logically [​IMG], correct ? Because just wanted her already considered as adultery, moreover to sexual thing.
    I’m not sure if you are asking about punishments that the community gives to the offender, like stoning, or punishments like hell. There is also another thing to consider. God punished the group as a whole because they didn’t keep the covenant, so they as a group got exiled from the Promised Land. It sounds like you mean a punishment that is for a particular individual, that would apply to all individuals everywhere who break a commandment, and not the specific group that God carved for himself by leading them out of slavery from Egypt and to the Land. As far as I know, punishments executed by the community, like stoning, are not the same for each of the ten.
    Well i don't know how you can conclude that each tribe has theire own punishment according to theire community. Because what I know is, the Law in the Torah was the law to be engaged by all tribe that following Moses.
    Seeing can lead to thinking, and thinking can lead to action. The correct thing to do is “nip it in the bud” (uh, that means stop right away as soon as the process begins).
    Yes, that's what i'm talking about.Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
     
  11. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    (Ricky W;12956)
    I'm sorry B, I was mistake. It should point on you, but i have mistake by thinking that you are Jordan(thesuperjag). I do appoligze for it B
    Oh, I should have figured that out. :cool: I had thought it possible that you might have edited your post and been talking about the Jordan River, because there is section of the bible that takes place there. I had forgotten that we have a Jordan on the board! (Not that I forgot about Jag! Just I rarely use his real name.) Please, don’t worry about it.
    If we see what the verse already said, then according to Jesus explaination, pre marital sex was also broke one of OT law logically [​IMG], correct ? Because just wanted her already considered as adultery, moreover to sexual thing.
    Yes. [​IMG]
    Well i don't know how you can conclude that each tribe has theire own punishment according to theire community. Because what I know is, the Law in the Torah was the law to be engaged by all tribe that following Moses.
    I was careless, and I think it has lead to a misunderstanding. When I said “ten” I meant “ten commandments” not “ten tribes”. I don’t think the tribes in the Torah had different laws for each tribe. I apologize for lazy typing.I think that the stated punishment for each of the ten commandments is not the same. Stoning is not the stated punishment for all ten commandments. I used the word “community” because it is the community of everyone who goes and does the stoning of the person who broke the rule. The people in the community/town where the criminal lives are the people who do the stoning.In case if this is the problem...”stoning” means for a group of people to take the criminal outside the town and to throw rocks at him until he is dead.
     
  12. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    Protecting me Allah(God), from the evil(satan) that You already cursed.In the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.So B'midbar, what is the punisment for the one who commit an adultery, where according to Jesus(pbuh) pre marital sex was also considered as doing adultery ?Is it stoning until dead to person who doing that ?Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
     
  13. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    If a man was caught lying with a married woman, then both of them should die, according to the Torah. Stoning is not specifically mentioned (for adultery), as far as I recall, except if the woman is betrothed. Jesus did not require the woman caught in adultery to be stoned when she was brought before him. That story is found in John 8:1-11. Since they caught her in the act, the man would also have been there, but they did not bring him to Jesus, oddly enough.Notice the accusers in that story say that Moses said she was to be stoned (and not just die). I don’t know of a verse the accusers could possibly mean, unless this was a woman who was betrothed.
    Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found lying with a married woman, then both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel.
    and
    Deuteronomy 22:23 "If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.
     
  14. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    Protecting me Allah(God), from the evil(satan) that You already cursed.In the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    Deuteronomy 22:23 "If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.
    This verse, it seems like contra with the verse that I ask you before.Because in here God give to them a punisment to death, meanwhile in the verse that i gave, both of them must married.Please your explanation B'midbar [​IMG], thanks [​IMG].Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
     
  15. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    (Ricky W;13111)
    This verse, it seems like contra with the verse that I ask you before.
    There is a difference between the two situations. In the one you gave originally, the woman is not engaged or betrothed to a different man besides the one she is sleeping with. In the passage I just gave above, she is sleeping with someone who is not the man to whom she is engaged. Notice that passage is saying this case is one of violating a neighbor's wife.The "engagement" back then was more like "marriage". It was less ephemeral than what your typical American means by the word now.
     
  16. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    I seek refuge in God, from Satan the rejectedIn the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.Exodus.22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. 22:17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. (B'Midbar)
    There is a difference between the two situations. In the one you gave originally, the woman is not engaged or betrothed to a different man besides the one she is sleeping with. In the passage I just gave above, she is sleeping with someone who is not the man to whom she is engaged. Notice that passage is saying this case is one of violating a neighbor's wife.
    In that verse neither the man and the girl was hasn't engagement yet.And what you has said with this statement she is sleeping with someone who is not the man to whom she is engaged, actually was fit.The condition from what you have gave was the man and the girl who are sleeping together was not in the engagement, and the same condition was also in Exodus 22:16-17, both of them was not engagement on to the other.
    The "engagement" back then was more like "marriage". It was less ephemeral than what your typical American means by the word now.
    Ehm.... I don't know how come you said like that, it seems what you has said wasn't true.H376אישׁ'îysheeshContracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation.) : - also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy. Compare H802.Deuteronomy.22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;The word husband and man in that verse was using the same hebrew word as I mentioned above. So the word husband in that verse is only meaning a man that shall be a husband(still not real husband).And the word which is being used in Deutoronomy 22:23 was the one being used in Exodus 22:16 which translated in English as man.The word Husband in Hebrew which is has a real meaning of it was :H1167בּעלba‛albah'-alFrom H1166; a master; hence a husband, or (figuratively) owner (often used with another noun in modifications of this latter sense: - + archer, + babbler, + bird, captain, chief man, + confederate, + have to do, + dreamer, those to whom it is due, + furious, those that are given to it, great, + hairy, he that hath it, have, + horseman, husband, lord, man, + married, master, person, + sworn, they of.I think the engagement meaning in the back then was the same thing as us in this civilization [​IMG].Well correct me if i was wrong B'midbar [​IMG].Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
     
  17. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    (Ricky W;13172)
    In that verse neither the man and the girl was hasn't engagement yet.And what you has said with this statement she is sleeping with someone who is not the man to whom she is engaged, actually was fit.
    I'm not sure if I understand your discussion of the two cases. In one case, the woman is betrothed to someone. She is betrothed to one man, and is having sex with a different man. That is in Deuteronomy 22:23. I can tell there are two men there is because the one man is punished for violating his neighbor's wife (it says in verse 24). In the other case, in Exodus 22:16, the woman is not betrothed.So I see the two places as talking about different situations. In one situation the woman is betrothed to some other man, and the in the other she is not.
    The word husband and man in that verse was using the same hebrew word as I mentioned above. So the word husband in that verse is only meaning a man that shall be a husband(still not real husband).
    I agree that he is not her husband in the full sense because they have not lain together or come to live together. But it is strange that it goes on to call the woman his neighbor's wife. I wouldn't call a betrothed woman that. In this way it is not like a modern understanding.Deuteronomy 22:24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.
    I think the engagement meaning in the back then was the same thing as us in this civilization [​IMG].
    It is mostly, yes. But a few features are different. When I read in the NT about Joseph and Mary, they were only betrothed when she became pregnant, yet the NT describes how Joseph was going to divorce/put her away quietly. This is more like marriage language to me than betrothal language. In these modern times in America, there is no need to divorce someone whom you are betrothed with. Back then, apparently there was. Perhaps this is a function of how dowry exchange worked? I don't know.Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.Matthew 1:19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly."Send her away" or "Put her away" is what is used when a man divorces his wife. That is what is used in the passages where Jesus talks about divorce, like inMatthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.The two underlined things in verse 32 are the same root "send away". The translation is just translating it differently in the two spots. I'm not saying that back then marriage=betrothal. I'm only saying that the two categories seem to be treated a small bit differently than I am accustomed to here in modern America.
     
  18. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    I seek refuge in God, from Satan the rejectedIn the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.("B'midbar")
    I'm not sure if I understand your discussion of the two cases. In one case, the woman is betrothed to someone. She is betrothed to one man, and is having sex with a different man. That is in Deuteronomy 22:23. I can tell there are two men there is because the one man is punished for violating his neighbor's wife (it says in verse 24). In the other case, in Exodus 22:16, the woman is not betrothed.So I see the two places as talking about different situations. In one situation the woman is betrothed to some other man, and the in the other she is not.
    Ok, now to make clear what i'm saying, i will ask you a question, and hopely you do get my point [​IMG].In Deuteronomy 22:23, does a man who lain with the virgin was betrothed each other ?In Exodus 22:16(sorry I edit this, before was Exodus 22:23), does a man who lain with the virgin was betrothed each other too ?And I believe, you will have an answer that both of them who has lain was not betrothed one to another.(B'midbar)
    There is a difference between the two situations. In the one you gave originally, the woman is not engaged or betrothed to a different man besides the one she is sleeping with. In the passage I just gave above, she is sleeping with someone who is not the man to whom she is engaged. Notice that passage is saying this case is one of violating a neighbor's wife.
    In your above statement, I do understand that you are trying to tell the different in both condition, but eventhough like that, i was also trying to tell you, that there is a same situation and condition between both of them in the verse that we use.(B'midbar)
    I agree that he is not her husband in the full sense because they have not lain together or come to live together. But it is strange that it goes on to call the woman his neighbor's wife. I wouldn't call a betrothed woman that. In this way it is not like a modern understanding.Deuteronomy 22:24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.
    Well actually that behaviour were well known in Arabic and Islamic teach about engagement, where if there is that has engagement, then the others moslem cannot took her(who has engagement to other moslem) tobe his fiance. By the time those moslem does thus thing then he already been told like the Torah has said, eventhough they were not married yet [​IMG].Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
     
  19. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    (Ricky W;13231)
    In Deuteronomy 22:23, does a man who lain with the virgin was betrothed each other ?In Exodus 22:23, does a man who lain with the virgin was betrothed each other too ?
    I see, the answer is no to both questions. Yes, I realize this. [​IMG] The situations are similar in that way.
    Well actually that behaviour were well known in Arabic and Islamic teach about engagement, where if there is that has engagement, then the others moslem cannot took her(who has engagement to other moslem) tobe his fiance. By the time those moslem does thus thing then he already been told like the Torah has said, eventhough they were not married yet [​IMG].
    Okay. [​IMG]
     
  20. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    I seek refuge in God, from Satan the rejectedIn the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    I see, the answer is no to both questions. Yes, I realize this. The situations are similar in that way.
    Then what is the punishment for the case in Exodus 22:16 meanwhile the case has been shown that the punishment to the same case was stoning to death ?Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
     
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