Predestination Vs. Free Will

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Predistination vs. Free Will


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242006

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I don't understand what you mean when you say that everyone is born into one or the other classification (predestined vs. free will).

What's there not to understand?? I thought that I was very clear in that everyone is born in the flesh with souls that are EITHER 'predestined' OR that have 'free will'.

Anyone that has studied the Bible would know that the terms 'predestined' and 'free will' are mutually exclusive of each other. It is clear [1 Pet. 1:20, Rev. 13:8, Rev. 17:8, and other places] that those souls, who are 'predestined', obtained that status for salvation before the "foundation of the world", which means, irrespective of how one wishes to interpret it, at a time before they were even born in the flesh and exercised any level of flesh 'free will'. It is also very clear [Joh. 3:16] that whomsover comes into belief, through 'free will', will also obtain salvation. It is purely a tradition of man, through lack of knowledge in the Word and bible illiteracy, to combine 'predestination' and 'free will' into some combo-theory. Such combo-theories are easily disproven by the scriptures that I have listed.

Now, I suggest that you don't take my word for it. If the listed scriptures are not dispositive for you, perhaps the Word from Jesus' own mouth might convince you of the two separate classifications for salvation.

Joh 6:39​
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day
.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Unless you believe that Jesus had a speech impediment and was not the perfect Lamb of God, then His own Words inform us that there is a group of 'predestined' people that were "given" Him and another group with 'free will' that who "seeth the Son" and "believeth on Him" that, on the "last day", will be saved.



 

fivesense

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What's there not to understand?? I thought that I was very clear in that everyone is born in the flesh with souls that are EITHER 'predestined' OR that have 'free will'.

Anyone that has studied the Bible would know that the terms 'predestined' and 'free will' are mutually exclusive of each other. It is clear [1 Pet. 1:20, Rev. 13:8, Rev. 17:8, and other places] that those souls, who are 'predestined', obtained that status for salvation before the "foundation of the world", which means, irrespective of how one wishes to interpret it, at a time before they were even born in the flesh and exercised any level of flesh 'free will'. It is also very clear [Joh. 3:16] that whomsover comes into belief, through 'free will', will also obtain salvation. It is purely a tradition of man, through lack of knowledge in the Word and biblical illiteracy, to combine 'predestination' and 'free will' into some combo-theory. Such combo-theories are easily disproven by the scriptures that I have listed.

Now, I suggest that you don't take my word for it. If the listed scriptures are not dispositive for you, perhaps the Word from Jesus' own mouth might convince you of the two separate classifications for salvation.

Joh 6:39​
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day
.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Unless you believe that Jesus had a speech impediment and was not the perfect Lamb of God, then His own Words inform us that there is a group of 'predestined' people that were "given" Him and another group with 'free will' that who "seeth the Son" and "believeth on Him" that, on the "last day", will be saved.




Solid stuff, Watchman 2. Predesignation is scriptural, free will is not. The former is very much discussed and made clear in many passages, yet those who hold to a freewill philosophy will never submit to the word of God, as belief in what God has spoken destroys the idol of freewillism. Free will is another form of self-exaltation, putting man ahead of God in sovereignty and power. As you say, they are mutually exclusive, and predesignation has a confirmed place in the plan of God.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:14-23

There is no allowance for an unhindered, uninfluenced and self-directed will in humanity. Paul is not mincing words here, but setting the record straight. It is by Holy Spirit that he made this conclusion, not human reasoning, and it is established truth. None but the God of all, the Father of spirits, has a free will, to do whatsoever He should be disposed to do. We are subject to influences from friends, family, heredity, environment, emotions, and the list is endless of the things that cause us to choose one thing over another, so that to do the will of God is impossible without becoming a totally new creation, enabled to be led of Holy Spirit, which we have been gifted with.

It would be of great benefit to the whole of the Body should they come into an acknowledgment of this truth. Many a myth and fable in the ecclesia has its roots in this man-made and unscriptural philosophy of free will. Entire doctrines and sects are built around this artificial conception.

fivesense
 

242006

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You are correct watchman, the predestinated have all ready been justified because of what the accomplished in the first heaven and earth age.

Thank you -- it is amazing to me that those, who profess to believe in the Bible, are so ignorant of the first age. Many Christians, without question, believe that there will be a new age after this one, but cannot allow themselves to believe [as the Bible plainly states] that there was a previous age before the one we are currently in.
 

242006

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Solid stuff, Watchman 2. Predesignation is scriptural, free will is not. The former is very much discussed and made clear in many passages, yet those who hold to a freewill philosophy will never submit to the word of God, as belief in what God has spoken destroys the idol of freewillism. Free will is another form of self-exaltation, putting man ahead of God in sovereignty and power. As you say, they are mutually exclusive, and predesignation has a confirmed place in the plan of God.

I will take issue with you at this point in your post. 'Free will' is also scriptural.

I can see that you do not understand the three heaven and earth ages. For, it is the sole purpose of this second age to save as many from the salvation classification of 'free will'. Salvation from the 'free will' classification is God's sole plan for this second age. The 'predestined' have already been judged 'saved' before the 'foundation of the world' [second age]. It is not necessary for the 'predestined', alone, to go through this second age.
 

fivesense

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I will take issue with you at this point in your post. 'Free will' is also scriptural.

I can see that you do not understand the three heaven and earth ages. For, it is the sole purpose of this second age to save as many from the salvation classification of 'free will'. Salvation from the 'free will' classification is God's sole plan for this second age. The 'predestined' have already been judged 'saved' before the 'foundation of the world' [second age]. It is not necessary for the 'predestined', alone, to go through this second age.

So Paul's repudiation of free will does not bear consideration, that to will is not present but sin interferes and prohibits its exercise? I would appreciate further examples from the Scriptures that invalidate Paul's declaration. There is one that is consistently alluded to as "proof" of free will, and that is Joshua 24:15. It is an appeal to faithfulness to that which was bestowed on Israel, and the exhortation to commitment to the Covenant, not a treatise or description of free will. It is not mentioned in this passage at all.

On what ground of evidence from the scriptures can you conclude Paul's summary as invalid?

Additionally, for "free will" to be "also scriptural", there needs to be evidence discussing its existence.
Jn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you
Ro 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jn 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

It is difficult to explain how one can be considered a slave and in bondage, and yet declare outloud, "I am free". Such a statement from one who is a slave is ludicrous. The Scriptures make plain the hopeless, lost, and unyielding condition of the human heart to change. Freedom to choose is narrowly confined and an honest assesment of the truth will reveal the same.


AV Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

AV Ro 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

AV Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

AV Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

AV Ga 5:1 . Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

AV Hb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

AV 2Pt 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

This is not being acknowledged as the truth, when the philosophy of free will is being espoused over and above the Holy Autographs.

fivesense.

 

242006

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So Paul's repudiation of free will does not bear consideration, that to will is not present but sin interferes and prohibits its exercise?

I don't agree with the underlying premise of your post.

Without examining Paul's specific writings and assuming arguendo that your stated position [emboldened in your quote] is correct, there would be a contradiction in scripture. Joh. 3:16 states the purpose for God's only begotten Son in this second age. It was for "whosoever believeth in Him". In other words, Jesus was begotten in this second age for those with 'free will' -- and, not for the 'predestined'. Hence, if Paul, indeed, repudiated 'free will', then it is fair to conclude that Paul was a false apostle and all Pauline books should be deleted from the Bible.

Of course, I believe that Paul was an inspired apostle of Christ and would not write something that was in contradiction with Christ's own Words. Hence, if one believes that Paul was 'inspired' of God, then one, in turn, has to reject the premise that Paul repudiated 'free will'.

Accordingly, those, who construe Paul's writings as a repudiation of free will, do so in error and/or in Bible illiteracy. The Bible, in order to be the Word of God, cannot contradict itself in meaning.
 

Adstar

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Hey everybody

Age old debate Predestination vs. Free Will. Just want to hear your veiws on the matter.


I believe in both Free will and Predestination. You never gave that as an option in the vote.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

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Choir Loft
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Are you certain, that "we will be judged for our sin"?
fivesense

HELL, yes

I believe in both Free will and Predestination. You never gave that as an option in the vote.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Your statement is a contradiction in logic. You cannot have both.

Logically a man can have free will or not.
If he has free will, then double predestination is not in effect.
If double predestination is in effect, then he has no free will.
You cannot have both, it is a logical impossibility.

According to the theology of double predestination (the Calvinist version), a man has no choice at all since it has been decided for him before his birth.
I believe in single predestination (that all men are destined to be conformed to the image of Christ). Perhaps that is the version which you embrace.

See how words can get us really hosed up?

I also believe in limited free will. One has the choice to accept Christ and His authority......or not.
BTW This is a personal God-thing between a man and the Lord.

Additionally, there is no rubber stamp for everybody on the planet.
It is man to Man so to speak, wherein a man must choose to accept or reject the Son of Man when He reveals Himself to us.

The problem with anti-Christian theology is that it leaves this tension out of the mix.
Nothing in life is automatic except death and taxes. Neither is the Kingdom of God a mechanical thing.
 

fivesense

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I don't agree with the underlying premise of your post.

Without examining Paul's specific writings and assuming arguendo that your stated position [emboldened in your quote] is correct, there would be a contradiction in scripture. Joh. 3:16 states the purpose for God's only begotten Son in this second age. It was for "whosoever believeth in Him". In other words, Jesus was begotten in this second age for those with 'free will' -- and, not for the 'predestined'. Hence, if Paul, indeed, repudiated 'free will', then it is fair to conclude that Paul was a false apostle and all Pauline books should be deleted from the Bible.

Of course, I believe that Paul was an inspired apostle of Christ and would not write something that was in contradiction with Christ's own Words. Hence, if one believes that Paul was 'inspired' of God, then one, in turn, has to reject the premise that Paul repudiated 'free will'.

Accordingly, those, who construe Paul's writings as a repudiation of free will, do so in error and/or in Bible illiteracy. The Bible, in order to be the Word of God, cannot contradict itself in meaning.


Condescension as a tool to reinforce one's position is highly indicative. My request is, Show me from Scripture wherein God explains "free will". Since He has not done so, it is based upon the false premise of human reasoning. I seek only to enlighten those who desire to know the truth of God, not uphold the vain reasoning of man, such as the philosophy of free will.
 

Adstar

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Adstar :
I believe in both Free will and Predestination. You never gave that as an option in the vote.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Your statement is a contradiction in logic. You cannot have both.

A contradiction in human logic. A contradiction if you believe God is trapped in the universal time He created for us to be confined in. But God is not bound by His creation. That is why He knows the beginning and the end.

Logically a man can have free will or not.

Man does have free will and God has predestined those who will be with Him in Eternity from the foundations of the world.

If he has free will, then double predestination is not in effect.
If double predestination is in effect, then he has no free will.
You cannot have both, it is a logical impossibility.

I am not sure what this term "double predestination" means I know what Predestination is, So if you will enlighten me about this double terminology?

According to the theology of double predestination (the Calvinist version), a man has no choice at all since it has been decided for him before his birth.

Oh i just call that calvanisim. I am not a clavanist, which is the thinking of men.

I believe in single predestination (that all men are destined to be conformed to the image of Christ). Perhaps that is the version which you embrace.

Nope that sounds like universalism. I am not a universalist. That’s an even worse deception then calvanisim.

See how words can get us really hosed up?

I am an Australian so i am not sure what the term "hosed up" means. I guess it means something like entangled or tripped up?

I also believe in limited free will. One has the choice to accept Christ and His authority......or not.
BTW This is a personal God-thing between a man and the Lord.

I believe in free will. Of course i also believe in the conviction that comes from the Holy Spirit.

Additionally, there is no rubber stamp for everybody on the planet.

? I assume your terminology refers to a predestination stamp. If so then the bible declares you wrong. God from His Foreknowledge (<<< an important word) has seen all history and from that, He can, and He has indeed predestined those who He will have in eternity with Him.

It is man to Man so to speak, wherein a man must choose to accept or reject the Son of Man when He reveals Himself to us.

True. God has already, from the dawn of creation knew who would choose what. That’s His Foreknowledge in action.

The problem with anti-Christian theology is that it leaves this tension out of the mix.
Nothing in life is automatic except death and taxes. Neither is the Kingdom of God a mechanical thing.

Once again the true nature of Predestination does in no way eliminate the free will of men to embrace or reject the will of God. It is the human lack of comprehension of God's overview of all History that makes this discussion a dead end for many. And the scriptures that the calvanists in this discussion are posting are true, It is just that they, like you, do not understand that God is not chained in His awareness by past and future as we are. From His place He sees all of our times in an instant.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

242006

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Condescension as a tool to reinforce one's position is highly indicative. My request is, Show me from Scripture wherein God explains "free will". Since He has not done so, it is based upon the false premise of human reasoning. I seek only to enlighten those who desire to know the truth of God, not uphold the vain reasoning of man, such as the philosophy of free will.

I was not condescending. If I wanted to be condescending, I certainly could do so. I simply considered your unlearned position to be the result of your misinterpretation of Paul's writings [easy to misconstrue his writings at times]. There is no shame in being ignorant -- it just proves that you have not been taught the Truth. True shame results when, after being taught the Truth, one elects to be willingly ignorant and maintain the same false doctrines/beliefs as one had before receiving the Truth.

Instead, I addressed your false premise [Paul rejected 'free will'] by pointing out that such premise results in a contradiction in the Bible. If you truly believed such premise to be true, you should be condemning Paul as a heretic and calling for the repudiation of all of Paul's writings. Salvation for those with 'free will' is so plainly evident in scripture [Joh. 3:16, 6:40 for a couple].

It is very clear that you are completely ignorant of the three ages and the purpose of this second age. If anyone [including Calvinists] were learned in this subject, one would never make the ridiculous claim that salvation is only for the 'predestined'. If only the 'predestined' were intended for salvation by God, there would have never been a purpose for this second age at all. The 'predestined' were established in the first age. God could have simply sent everyone else, but the 'predestined', into the lake of fire along with Satan at the end of the first age and then proceed directly to the eternity to come [third age for us],

I direct your attention again to Joh. 6:39-40. In v. 39, Christ's mission is to not lose any of the 'predestined', which means that their salvation was already secured prior to this second age. In v. 40, Christ's mission is to also save those with 'free will', who seeth and believeth in Him. In Joh. 3:16, Christ tells us why He was given by God [second age]. It was to save those with 'free will' ["whosoever believeth"] -- not to save the 'predestined'.

Salvation of those with 'free will' is the sole purpose of this second age -- the predestined already earned their salvation in the first age.
 

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Choir Loft
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http://www.christianityboard.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=85669




[font="tahoma][size="3"]So you don't believe that Jesus bore the punishment for our sins at the cross?[/size][/font]

Apparently I didn't state it clearly enough. Sorry about that.

Jesus bears the penalty of sin for all those who accept Him.

For those who do not, judgment remains a horrible future.

Jesus took a hit for the team, so to speak. He certainly did for me.

Judgment remains and hell remains. So does the Lord and many of us who go with Him.

The gift of forgiveness expires at the same time as the one to whom it's offered.
 

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Choir Loft
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A contradiction in human
I am not sure what this term "double predestination" means I know what Predestination is, So if you will enlighten me about this double terminology?

Oh i just call that calvanisim. I am not a clavanist, which is the thinking of men.



Nope that sounds like universalism. I am not a universalist. That’s an even worse deception then calvanisim.



I am an Australian so i am not sure what the term "hosed up" means. I guess it means something like entangled or tripped up?

The terms 'double predestination' and 'single predestination' are memory gimmicks I learned in seminary. They are used to keep the theology straight in one's mind.

"Double predestination" refers to the theology of John Calvin which simply stated means that some men are dedicated to hell and others to paradise; all dedication determined before the birth of any. It's a spin off of the classic idea of the 'Fates' which governed the destiny of men. Calvinist theology has been adopted most directly by the Presbyterian Church in America.

"Single predestination" refers to the theology of Martin Luther wherein the only thing stated as being certain is that God wants all believers to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Calvinism is based on a sort of logic. You can at least follow it through from beginning to end without too many bumps in your cerebral perceptions of it. You may not buy it, but the concept flows smoothly enough......which is why the argument has lasted so long.

Universalism is based on fantasy, gnostic secret knowledge and false presuppositions. Some of them claim that the Bible is full of contradictions yet they refuse to put their own breaks in logic under the microscope. Many I've dealt with have a singular dedication to their own versions of study...which is why their argument has lasted so long.

The term 'hosed up' has been used by many in the computer business to describe a condition of corruption in the data. Ever seen a garden hose with kinks and bends in it? No water will flow until its straightened out. It's 'hosed up'.
 

jiggyfly

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Apparently I didn't state it clearly enough. Sorry about that.

Jesus bears the penalty of sin for all those who accept Him.

For those who do not, judgment remains a horrible future.

Jesus took a hit for the team, so to speak. He certainly did for me.

Judgment remains and hell remains. So does the Lord and many of us who go with Him.

The gift of forgiveness expires at the same time as the one to whom it's offered.

Do you have scripture to support your belief?
 

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Choir Loft
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Do you have scripture to support your belief?

I assume your question refers to judgment and the substitutionary death of Christ.
Given that, here are some references for you to ponder.

The whole thing starts with the Eden story and the sin of Adam.
It's the basic idea of rebellion against God and its effect upon man's relationship with Him.

Basically the whole thing goes down the tubes .....
Family trouble after that. Eviction from their home, sibling rivalry and murder - all nasty stuff.
Not a very happy tale. Then again sin never is.

Fast forward to the book of Exodus chapter 12 somewhere around verse twenty or so.

This is the story of the passover. According to this narrative God is about to execute his final plague upon Egypt.
Right about here someone will prepare a reply about how horrendous this episode is and miss the whole point of the story.
The idea is that God provides a way of escape from the death that will visit the place.

Spiritually, a word was given to kill lambs and spread their blood around the doors of dwellings.
By faith the Hebrews acted upon the word and did a foolish thing; they smeared blood on their door posts and lintel.
God responded to their faith by causing death to pass over those houses which had accepted His word, believed it and acted upon it.

In the passover story those who acted on faith and applied the blood of a lamb escaped death.

But stop for a minute and consider this; something did die. For those who acted by faith, innocent lambs were slaughtered.
Death did fall, but it fell upon the lambs not those who believed God. In this story, the lambs died INSTEAD of the faithful.
On that occasion, God accepted the substitutionary death of lambs and passed over those who applied it to their homes and lives.

The passover story deals with the liberation of the Hebrew people from slavery in Egypt.
It is a type or foreshadowing of the deliverance from sin that would later be provided by Christ.

At that time, the deliverance from death was temporary. Once Christ died upon the cross, He became the lamb whose blood could be applied for the deliverance from the power of sin. A death must be suffered. Those who accept what God has provided will escape judgment. Those who don't, won't.

Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 5:21

because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:9

Considering all this one might ask when an appropriate time might happen when one should call to God to be saved. Should one wait until all possible questions have been asked and all possible answers and scenarios explored? One's time is short upon the earth and no man can say if he will survive even a single day longer to ask more questions and seek more answers. God waits for a response, but he will not wait forever. No final absolute answer will be given except to say that faith demands an immediate action. It is not by the hand of man that one is saved, but by the Grace of God given on behalf of and for the Glory of His Name.

"...At an acceptable time I hearkened unto thee, And in a day of salvation did I succour thee: behold, now is the acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation."
2Co 6:2
 

jiggyfly

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I assume your question refers to judgment and the substitutionary death of Christ.
Given that, here are some references for you to ponder.

The whole thing starts with the Eden story and the sin of Adam.
It's the basic idea of rebellion against God and its effect upon man's relationship with Him.

Basically the whole thing goes down the tubes .....
Family trouble after that. Eviction from their home, sibling rivalry and murder - all nasty stuff.
Not a very happy tale. Then again sin never is.

Fast forward to the book of Exodus chapter 12 somewhere around verse twenty or so.

This is the story of the passover. According to this narrative God is about to execute his final plague upon Egypt.
Right about here someone will prepare a reply about how horrendous this episode is and miss the whole point of the story.
The idea is that God provides a way of escape from the death that will visit the place.

Spiritually, a word was given to kill lambs and spread their blood around the doors of dwellings.
By faith the Hebrews acted upon the word and did a foolish thing; they smeared blood on their door posts and lintel.
God responded to their faith by causing death to pass over those houses which had accepted His word, believed it and acted upon it.

In the passover story those who acted on faith and applied the blood of a lamb escaped death.

But stop for a minute and consider this; something did die. For those who acted by faith, innocent lambs were slaughtered.
Death did fall, but it fell upon the lambs not those who believed God. In this story, the lambs died INSTEAD of the faithful.
On that occasion, God accepted the substitutionary death of lambs and passed over those who applied it to their homes and lives.

The passover story deals with the liberation of the Hebrew people from slavery in Egypt.
It is a type or foreshadowing of the deliverance from sin that would later be provided by Christ.

At that time, the deliverance from death was temporary. Once Christ died upon the cross, He became the lamb whose blood could be applied for the deliverance from the power of sin. A death must be suffered. Those who accept what God has provided will escape judgment. Those who don't, won't.

Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 5:21

because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:9

Considering all this one might ask when an appropriate time might happen when one should call to God to be saved. Should one wait until all possible questions have been asked and all possible answers and scenarios explored? One's time is short upon the earth and no man can say if he will survive even a single day longer to ask more questions and seek more answers. God waits for a response, but he will not wait forever. No final absolute answer will be given except to say that faith demands an immediate action. It is not by the hand of man that one is saved, but by the Grace of God given on behalf of and for the Glory of His Name.

"...At an acceptable time I hearkened unto thee, And in a day of salvation did I succour thee: behold, now is the acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation."
2Co 6:2
Sorry for not being clear on my question, actually my question is directed at your statement here.
Jesus bears the penalty of sin for all those who accept Him.


You seem to believe that Jesus did not bear the sin of all but rather just a certain group. Do you have scripture to support your belief?
smile.gif
 

Jimmy Engle

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Jun 17, 2009
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You seem to believe that Jesus did not bear the sin of all but rather just a certain group. Do you have scripture to support your belief?
smile.gif
Lol...John 3:16 says that whosoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved...so the only people who will be saved our those who believe in Him through repentance and faith. So not all will be saved and not all can be saved because not all will believe as mentioned in Matthew 7:14

Oh and Christ didn't die for the whole world because if He did then everyone's sins would be forgiven....He only died for those who would believe. :)
 

Adstar

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The terms 'double predestination' and 'single predestination' are memory gimmicks I learned in seminary. They are used to keep the theology straight in one's mind.

"Double predestination" refers to the theology of John Calvin which simply stated means that some men are dedicated to hell and others to paradise; all dedication determined before the birth of any. It's a spin off of the classic idea of the 'Fates' which governed the destiny of men. Calvinist theology has been adopted most directly by the Presbyterian Church in America.

"Single predestination" refers to the theology of Martin Luther wherein the only thing stated as being certain is that God wants all believers to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Calvinism is based on a sort of logic. You can at least follow it through from beginning to end without too many bumps in your cerebral perceptions of it. You may not buy it, but the concept flows smoothly enough......which is why the argument has lasted so long.

Universalism is based on fantasy, gnostic secret knowledge and false presuppositions. Some of them claim that the Bible is full of contradictions yet they refuse to put their own breaks in logic under the microscope. Many I've dealt with have a singular dedication to their own versions of study...which is why their argument has lasted so long.

The term 'hosed up' has been used by many in the computer business to describe a condition of corruption in the data. Ever seen a garden hose with kinks and bends in it? No water will flow until its straightened out. It's 'hosed up'.

kk thanks for the hosed up definition. I think it is similar to the term "all bent out of shape" ..

I find it best to try to avoide religous jargon if one wants to reach as many people as possible.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

Adstar

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Sorry for not being clear on my question, actually my question is directed at your statement here.



You seem to believe that Jesus did not bear the sin of all but rather just a certain group. Do you have scripture to support your belief?
smile.gif

Ok i will provide a definitive statement from scripture for you;

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

So eternal life is given to those who Believe in Him ( The Messiah Jesus) not for those who reject Him and disbelieves in His Atonement for their sins.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: Ph sorry. I just read the reply of James, i see he already provided the scriptures :)
 
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