Predestination Vs. Free Will

[Christina]

reguadless of what you all think Its really not the issue here does anyone care what God says?????? Why is there a poll here other than to see who does or doesnt know what God says ...your opinons mean nothing God says there is some who are predestined ..period now figure out how that works with free will is a subject worth discussing .

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Adam was obviously predestined to be who he was yet he still was given free choice to eat or not eat of the tree ...
God being all knowing knew that Adam would chose to eat ...So he divised his plan around would he knew Adam would chose to do.
Adam ate of his own free will .... That doesnt change he was predestind to be the line Christ would come through ...God being all knowing simply makes his plan to work with our free will
Predestination and free will work hand in hand ...God is simply all knowing ...If one denys there is predestination you deny the very words of God in the above scripture ...If you deny free will you deny the very words of God that he allows you to chose

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

You chose life or death blessing or curse you choose of your own free will
Christ is life Satan is death your choice just as it was Adams choice ...However Adam was still predestined to do as God planned.

 

[Streetsweeper]

reguadless of what you all think Its really not the issue here does anyone care what God says?????? Why is there a poll here other than to see who does or doesnt know what God says ...your opinons mean nothing God says there is some who are predestined ..period now figure out how that works with free will is a subject worth discussing .

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Adam was obviously predestined to be who he was yet he still was given free choice to eat or not eat of the tree ...
God being all knowing knew that Adam would chose to eat ...So he divised his plan around would he knew Adam would chose to do.
Adam ate of his own free will .... That doesnt change he was predestind to be the line Christ would come through ...God being all knowing simply makes his plan to work with our free will
Predestination and free will work hand in hand ...God is simply all knowing ...If one denys there is predestination you deny the very words of God in the above scripture ...If you deny free will you deny the very words of God that he allows you to chose

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

You chose life or death blessing or curse you choose of your own free will
Christ is life Satan is death your choice just as it was Adams choice ...However Adam was still predestined to do as God planned.

Thanks Christina,

That a very good introduction to Calvin's limited atonement. Although I must admit other theologians before and after Calvin have also made the same observations.

 

[Brother Mike]

I read that a little different..................

We created were called, as God calls to all his children. Now who God called, he did predestination to be conformed to his son, as God wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth.

He has chosen US, those that received Jesus to be Holy and without blame in Love.

Now many are called, but few are chosen. I don't see any election in this any more than I see God favoring Israel.

All should know Jesus, He knew everyone that he has made, but many do not qualify to be chosen.

I don't see any favoritism on God's part here, as he is no respecter of persons.

Everyone was predestined to be conformed to the Lord Jesus, In Jesus is the fullness of everything. I think the confusion comes from the term "For whom he did foreknow" Some look at that as individuals, but God made every spirit that went into every body, and God knew EVERYONE.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Christina]

I read that a little different..................

We created were called, as God calls to all his children. Now who God called, he did predestination to be conformed to his son, as God wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth.

He has chosen US, those that received Jesus to be Holy and without blame in Love.

Now many are called, but few are chosen. I don't see any election in this any more than I see God favoring Israel.

All should know Jesus, He knew everyone that he has made, but many do not qualify to be chosen.

I don't see any favoritism on God's part here, as he is no respecter of persons.

Everyone was predestined to be conformed to the Lord Jesus, In Jesus is the fullness of everything. I think the confusion comes from the term "For whom he did foreknow" Some look at that as individuals, but God made every spirit that went into every body, and God knew EVERYONE.

Jesus Is Lord.

Well brother Mike your post not only contradicts itself it denies free will.

...So again you have decided even though it God who says their are Elect because you have decided its favortism that you deny there is any Elect ..Why?
oh yeah because you do not like the word ... Well it does seem God does like the Word he uses it at least 20 times

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

 

[01CobraVortech]

I read that a little different..................

We created were called, as God calls to all his children. Now who God called, he did predestination to be conformed to his son, as God wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth.

He has chosen US, those that received Jesus to be Holy and without blame in Love.

Now many are called, but few are chosen. I don't see any election in this any more than I see God favoring Israel.

All should know Jesus, He knew everyone that he has made, but many do not qualify to be chosen.

I don't see any favoritism on God's part here, as he is no respecter of persons.

Everyone was predestined to be conformed to the Lord Jesus, In Jesus is the fullness of everything. I think the confusion comes from the term "For whom he did foreknow" Some look at that as individuals, but God made every spirit that went into every body, and God knew EVERYONE.

Jesus Is Lord.

Wow that post clears up a lot on this topic. Great explanation Brother Mike. Now makes perfect sense to me what you explain so easily.

 

[Brother Mike]

What is so Clear to you Robster is not so clear to Christiana........... wonder why?
Elect means Chosen, and it's not that we loved God, but He choose us first, and loved us first............ All in Christ Jesus are his Elect.

Jesus Is Lord

 

[01CobraVortech]

What is so Clear to you Robster is not so clear to Christiana........... wonder why?
Elect means Chosen, and it's not that we loved God, but He choose us first, and loved us first............ All in Christ Jesus are his Elect.

Jesus Is Lord

Might need to get Christina to brother Moore for some healing classes to get the hearing back in those ears. :lol:

 

[Brother Mike]

You will be right behind her in the Healing line once she reads your post.....

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[HammerStone]

Unfortunately, this is one of those arguments that seems to polarize. You're pretty much either a Calvinist or Arian with neither side allowing the middle ground. Those horrible "Arians" (which IMHO is a misnomer anyway) deny that God is all powerful because they assert some degree of free will. Talk to any Calvinist and they'll swear to you up and down that free will must mean total choice and practical self salvation... With the Calvinist bunch, you must believe that God laid down everything (which he did) but that he also planned everything out as it has unfolded apparently for his pleasure. One thing that's often not admitted is that predestination would make Satan himself molded by God to be evil. There are some ambiguous attempts to get around this, but they border dangerously on the free will side of things!

My point with the sarcasm is that this argument gets tired and it gets well overheated.

I'm reminded of Christ on earth, and the many verses where it says he perceived something:

[bible=Mark 2:8]
And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?[/bible]

Scriptures like this, scattered throughout the entire Bible, really give no doubt as to the ability of God to be a heart-knower (kardiognostes as he is called in the New Testament). I don't think any true Christian, regardless of stance in this debate, will deny that aspect of God. It's pretty much plainly stated right there in black and white (or perhaps red and white for you red letter edition readers). We can go back to Pharaoh and see that God can know the intentions of a person and even harden his heart. Lots of folks like to entirely misconstrue this verse and say that God made Pharaoh's heart hard while the verse simply says hardened (Exodus 7:13, etc.). A heart can already be hard yet still hardened further when the intentions are dark. So we can further take existing Biblical statements and build upon the foundation. God knows hearts and can discern the intent of someone to do something based on their heart.

A hypothetical Calvinist would stop here and say surely it means that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to further the plot of what would eventually lead to the elect. Here is undeniable proof of predestination.

The problem with this assertion is that it doesn't regard the entire Bible. To me it has always seemed very easy to build a case for Calvinism, but I've never been able to assent fully to the doctrine because of some key issues. I'll start from the beginning with Adam.

[bible=Genesis 2:7]
then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
[/bible]

The ESV and other modern versions do a better job here of rendering nephesh than the KJV. Some would like to take this would and render it (like the KJV) soul. The problem with that in my book is that it's used in Genesis 1:20 to talk about animals. In fact, the word right before it is "living" (Hebrew chay). A living soul would be repetition if you interpret it in the manner that the nephesh is the soul. However, if you were to distinguish this as an earthly soul (IE: creature, being, etc.) then the sentence makes sense. Father formed the body and breathed the spirit, but it never makes the claim that here God created the soul.

Jumping to another one:

[bible=Jeremiah 1:5]
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
[/bible]

Interesting, it's the exact same case here! If you approach this with the notion that we are a soul at conception, then perhaps you could argue the Calvinist view here.

Verses like Ephesians 1:4 and Romans 8:29-30 leave me with the obvious question. If God knows us before the foundation of this world, then is there no other conclusion but all things (both good and evil) are knowingly created by God? I don't think folks fully grasp the meaning of that statement because it's saying God knowingly created Satan as a foil to his children. Typically the "God works in mysterious ways" card is played right here and the question simply floats. I think those who are content with not seeking simply stop here and stick with the Calvinist mantra while those who are not so sure about the ambiguity tend to fall in the free will camp.

The key for understanding comes in Ephesians 1:4 (as elsewhere) when the word katabolē is used. This word literally means to throw down and it is only used in reference to the foundation of the world. It is not used anywhere else despite other words being used elsewhere for foundation like Luke 6:49, Luke 14:29 , Romans 15:20, etc. This alone should stir curiosity.

Returning to Ephesians 1:4, the next word is the Greek kosmos. As I explained in another thread, kosmos refers to the current ordered age to put a phrase on it. It's like saying "the universe as it stands now." This verse is effectively saying we (like Christ) were predestined from the literal throwing down of the foundation of this age/era.

This is, beloved, for those with eyes and ears to see and hear respectively, but do you not see that the soul is never created. Consider deeply Hebrews 4:12. The Word can and does certainly divide to that point. These elect are predestined in that they come from before, when their souls (not their bodies, this is not reincarnation Hebrews 9:27) existed prior to this era/eon/age. Father God knows them from somewhere, he has reason to trust whom he can trust. Just like Paul and others, God interacts with these people because he knows them and knows he can use and trust them to get the work done.

This is the truth behind predestination. It will step on a lot of toes, and I'm used to about anything that can be said, but I don't say these things with the faith I do because I take them lightly. Our God, YHVH, has written us a letter with an explanation of so many things about him. He's given us the Ruach Adonai to validate these things. They do become clear to some while maybe ending up on the shelves for others. That doesn't make one better than the other, because they're all God's children. What's so wild is that some of you will disagree with this and not believe it, yet most (if not all) have come to conclusions about this existence that have already placed you on this track. Did you end up at this forum talking to these people by chance? I really don't believe that. I'm not trying to force or assert, but I will let the truth flow as much as possible on this community and you are free to believe what you believe between you and Father. Talk to him and search the Scriptures, you'll find a lot of amazing things to be true.

I say all of this not to insult anyone. When you get right down to it, both schools of thought are correct in their own ways. Let's use the tools God gave us to split in two and be precise.

God Bless.

 

[Christina]

Nice post Hammerstone


My dear Robster and Brother Mike thanks for the invitation .
.However I must decline I do not attend Rapture teaching, tongue speaking false churches of men I study
Gods Word ..However I will not bore you with trying to help you understand the Word of God ..
You have a great grasp of the Words of men and I wouldnt want God to interfer with your worship of men and their lies.
:lol: :lol:

 

[Brother Mike]

Why thank you may dear wonderful sister Christiana. I am so happy that we have a understanding now.........at least I think.

Be blessed!!!!!

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[01CobraVortech]

Nice post Hammerstone


My dear Robster and Brother Mike thanks for the invitation .
.However I must decline I do not attend Rapture teaching, tongue speaking false churches of men I study
Gods Word ..However I will not bore you with trying to help you understand the Word of God ..
You have a great grasp of the Words of men and I wouldnt want God to interfer with your worship of men and their lies.
:lol: :lol:

Oh boy. My dear Christina I hope you aren't going to suggest that my healing is going to be a work of the devil. Now I think its safe to say that you would be mocking the Glory of God, the Mercy of God by slamming a healing miracle of His.

 

[Christina]

Oh boy. My dear Christina I hope you aren't going to suggest that my healing is going to be a work of the devil. Now I think its safe to say that you would be mocking the Glory of God, the Mercy of God by slamming a healing miracle of His.

Heavens no Robster ...I didnt know you could heal ....
WOW! here I thought God did the healing
but if you say its you far be from me to tell you differnt.

 

[Brother Mike]

Heavens no Robster ...I didnt know you could heal ....
WOW! here I thought God did the healing
but if you say its you far be from me to tell you differnt.

You see Christiana.......(No, guess you would not) Robster never said anything about him having healing power. In truth, by His stripes we are already healed. Of course those that mock that, won't be bother with any healing they may need.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[fivesense]

I voted free will... this is a debate that pops up from time to time at the site where I'm an admin, and I highly respect those frequent members there that support predestination. However, it just doesn't seem to want to sit right with me. I don't know... if God already predetermined if we would be saved or not in our making, what's the point for the cross? That's just how I feel about it.

It's the same word used by God to describe His delivering His Son into murderous hands, proorizo.

The most horrible crime against God that could be done, was done so by His predestination.

It does not pertain to salvation only. It is an operation of God that is not only connected to salvation.

The Body of Christ was designated beforhand for His purposes. They are saved for that reason alone. No believer can claim they saved themselves. It was never their choice to make, it was Him Who had the power to bring this to pass, even against their supposed free will.

Paul says we are under the power of the jurisdiction of darkness til He rescues us. He says we are slaves to sin without Him.

If we were so influenced by dark powers and in bondage to fleshly lusts, yet supposedly free-willed enough to deny or ignore those powers, then the Cross is just a mockery, and we never needed a Redeemer from death since it was in our own power to choose for or against the Adversary and his treacheries. It is foolishness to believe so.

The "free-will" doctrine is not found in the Scriptures. Yet it is believed and taught, even above what is taught in God's very Word.

Once again, God's predesignation does not imply salvation, although it accompanies our lot as the elect Body. It is an operation of God apart from salvation, or with it, to bring about His will in the universe.

The equally infamous falsehood of everlasting destruction usually accompanies this issue, those who deny the power of God to save utterly typically deny the teachings of predesignation as well. Honesty is in short supply though, isn't it...
fivesense

 

[Jimmy Engle]

Hey everybody

Age old debate Predestination vs. Free Will. Just want to hear your veiws on the matter.

I never quite understood how this can be a debate. If you believe in scripture then there is no reason to argue against it. However, whenever someone brings up the idea of freewill or us being able to choose God while we are still dead in sins...I begin to wonder if they even read the bible. Not only does the bible declare that God chooses us, it also makes it clear that prior to salvation we are dead in our sins. So the question that I have to ask is how can a dead man pass through a narrow gate?

Deal with the fact that salvation does not belong to us and it doesn't come from us. We can't earn it, deserve it. Since salvation belongs to the Lord and since we are spiritually dead and given over to the lusts of our flesh and eyes and boast in the world we don't have the ability to stop living in sin and live for Christ. It's just like in Ezekiel...we are that valley of dry bones and the only way we can be restored to life is through the hearing of God's word which is life. God chooses us and when He does He plants the seeds of repentance and faith.

Repentance and faith do not come from us. They come from Him. God enables us to repent and believe...we physically and spiritually can't work up a repentance and faith that results in salvation through our own strength...it must come from God or you are not truly born again but you are just following a religion and living in darkness...not in the truth. To say that you are saved because you chose to believe in God is like saying you are saved through self righteousness....
We are saved through the repentance and faith that God enabled us to have through His choosing of us and drawing us according to His plan.

I know I may sound Calvinistic by saying that there is no free will...but I am not. I am trying to say as simply as possible that it is God who gives us the ability to believe in Him and cross over from living a life of self whether its religious self, moral self, prideful self, covetous self, lustful self....over to Christ. We CANNOT do that in our own strength. Repentance in itself require us to choose so it depends on how you look at it. God draws us and we make choices.

Once a person has been saved, we then have the ability to choose. We have the ability to choose or reject God in all our decisions. Prior to that...we are like a babe. When you are born...you can't feed yourself or wrap your self in a blanket to stay warm...you can't do anything to help yourself. That is EXACTLY how we are in God's eyes.

 

[Dane01]

Nicely said hammer. Good job

 

[Brother Mike]

Repentance and faith do not come from us. They come from Him. God enables us to repent and believe...we physically and spiritually can't work up a repentance and faith that results in salvation through our own strength...it must come from God or you are not truly born again but you are just following a religion and living in darkness...not in the truth. To say that you are saved because you chose to believe in God is like saying you are saved through self righteousness....
We are saved through the repentance and faith that God enabled us to have through His choosing of us and drawing us according to His plan.

James, we are created in the image of God, even the unsaved rascles. It was Grace, the goodness of God that we may be saved. However, we have to believe that. It's called faith.

Now if faith was just all of God, then Jesus would have never told anyone "Ye of little faith" No, he would have said, that it was his fault for not giving enough faith to believe something. He would not have put the blame on them.

It is hard for me to believe that God created us in his own image, that we ended up so dumb and unable to hear the word and obey. The word produces the faith to recieve the package of salvation. The word was with God, the Word was God. So, it is God that is producing the faith if the Word is spoken, but Jesus gave 3 example in Mark 4 where a person could let that word go. It had nothing to do with God.

Jesus said...........

Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

These people had to pass the first 3 conditions and hear the word and receive the word.

Now we can just say that God made it so they could hear the word, but Jesus never blamed God for anyone not paying attention. Even the man that built his house on the sand and the one that built his house on the Rock. Both men heard the Word, Both men made seperate choices.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jiggyfly]

It's the same word used by God to describe His delivering His Son into murderous hands, proorizo.

The most horrible crime against God that could be done, was done so by His predestination.

It does not pertain to salvation only. It is an operation of God that is not only connected to salvation.

The Body of Christ was designated beforhand for His purposes. They are saved for that reason alone. No believer can claim they saved themselves. It was never their choice to make, it was Him Who had the power to bring this to pass, even against their supposed free will.

Paul says we are under the power of the jurisdiction of darkness til He rescues us. He says we are slaves to sin without Him.

If we were so influenced by dark powers and in bondage to fleshly lusts, yet supposedly free-willed enough to deny or ignore those powers, then the Cross is just a mockery, and we never needed a Redeemer from death since it was in our own power to choose for or against the Adversary and his treacheries. It is foolishness to believe so.

The "free-will" doctrine is not found in the Scriptures. Yet it is believed and taught, even above what is taught in God's very Word.

Once again, God's predesignation does not imply salvation, although it accompanies our lot as the elect Body. It is an operation of God apart from salvation, or with it, to bring about His will in the universe.

The equally infamous falsehood of everlasting destruction usually accompanies this issue, those who deny the power of God to save utterly typically deny the teachings of predesignation as well. Honesty is in short supply though, isn't it...
fivesense

Very nice post Fivesense, easy to read, seems the common ideology of endless torment or annihilation concerning hell gets in the way of many being able to receive, recognize and realizing the Truth.

Religious paradigm is a real monster that creates religious fantasies and fairy tales.

Ephesians 4:14 Then we will no longer be like children, forever changing our minds about what we believe because someone has told us something different or because someone has cleverly lied to us and made the lie sound like the truth.


1Corinthians 13:11 It's like this: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child does. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.


Seems that many think of this "time to come" is still in the future. But a short study into "church history" shows that this was taking place as early as the third century.


2Timothy 4:3&4 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear. They will reject the truth and follow strange myths.


Some have so much invested into religion that it is difficult for them. I recently watched a show on TV about hording and they had a man that had horded up all kinds of junk cars, appliances and scrap metal, but in his mind he had amassed great treasure and could not let it all go and clean up his property. He was deceived, thinking what he had was far more valuable than what it was really worth and so he could not let it go. It was ludicrous but he couldn't see his own folly, but he did make some small steps toward reality through others patiently helping him. This scenario reminds me of something Paul said about his own journey.


Philippians 3:7-9
I once thought all these things were so very important, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done.
Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the priceless gain of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I may have Christ and become one with him. I no longer count on my own goodness or my ability to obey God's law, but I trust Christ to save me. For God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith.


I really appreciate your post Fivesense, keep provoking and challenging us.

 

[Jimmy Engle]

James, we are created in the image of God, even the unsaved rascles. It was Grace, the goodness of God that we may be saved. However, we have to believe that. It's called faith.

Now if faith was just all of God, then Jesus would have never told anyone "Ye of little faith" No, he would have said, that it was his fault for not giving enough faith to believe something. He would not have put the blame on them.

It is hard for me to believe that God created us in his own image, that we ended up so dumb and unable to hear the word and obey. The word produces the faith to recieve the package of salvation. The word was with God, the Word was God. So, it is God that is producing the faith if the Word is spoken, but Jesus gave 3 example in Mark 4 where a person could let that word go. It had nothing to do with God.

Jesus said...........

Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

These people had to pass the first 3 conditions and hear the word and receive the word.

Now we can just say that God made it so they could hear the word, but Jesus never blamed God for anyone not paying attention. Even the man that built his house on the sand and the one that built his house on the Rock. Both men heard the Word, Both men made seperate choices.

Jesus Is Lord.

You are not understanding what was said. We have the ability to have faith in God...after we are saved. Prior to salvation we suppress the truth in unrighteousness. If we suppress the truth then we obviously have no faith. The disciples of Jesus didn't have the Holy Spirit...but they did believe what Jesus told them....it's the word of Christ and the bible that enable us to believe. Faith comes from hearing the word of God because it's the truth...the light that exposes the darkness. We are born spiritually dead and non believers. We live a lifestyle of carnality and worldliness. However, when God chooses to save a person...He recreates that person into a new creature that lives a different way. They live a life of faith and hope set upon the perfect work and merit of Christ....that doesn't come from us...it comes from Him. He enables us to do all things for the glory of God....faith is just one evidence of having been saved.

There are also two different types of faith. One results in sanctification...the other in hell. The true faith can only come from the living word of God. It's His word not ours...it comes from Him and by Him we are drawn to believing in His teachings. Repentance is no different. We do not decide on our own to change in order to serve God and die to self...God enables us to through the working of the Spirit....without which we would have nothing but worldly grief instead of the Godly grief that results in the forgiveness of sins.

What you are actually saying is that we have the ability to believe...if that was true then all who profess faith in Christ would be saved right? Well obviously they all are not according to the teaching of Christ. They profess to believe but deny Him by their works...
Even the fruit that we bear comes from Him...not us. We cannot produce good fruit apart from God. He is the source of our faith and fruit and are ability to understand truth. We have no merit of our own...only the grace revealed through Christ and Christ alone...