Preterism the New Frontier

[Willie T]

Well, yes, I am saying that because it invariably involves 'guess work', is the reason that I would dismiss it, ...or, as I said in an earlier post on this thread, would expect more dramatic or cataclysmic events to qualify as eschatological signs.
But, what I meant to question was, as far as the Bible attesting to fulfilled prophecy goes, i wouldn't think that these are part of the Preterist's argument or eschatology, for it wouldn't be a theory at that point, or up for debate, or considered eschatological?
In other words, just believing in the Messianic prophecies and fulfillments, doesn't make one a partial Preterist, does it?

And therein lies the rub. How is it that one person (a Futurist) can be so absolutely certain Jesus and the disciples (or any other prophesy instances) was/were addressing the End of The Earth — and another (equally intelligent, sane, responsible, rational and sincere) person (a Preterist) can be just as certain that things soon to happen in the lives of those Biblical people asking the questions or speaking the prophesies were being addressed?

We (either side, take your pick) like to label "those other people" as the ones who are kooks, since they do not see what we see... while it is "obviously" US who have the Sprit-given Truth...….. Something THEY can never have (without the special "God-Connection" WE have, exclusively).

 

[Pilgrimer]

Matthew 24:6. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

That would depend on what you think Jesus was talking about coming to an end. If, as I believe, he was talking about the end of the Temple and all it's beautiful buildings that would bring the Old Covenant dispensation to an end, then no other tragedy of the Jewish people since that day can compare with the loss of everything God had provided to enable them to keep covenant with him.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

as I said in an earlier post on this thread, would expect more dramatic or cataclysmic events to qualify as eschatological signs.

But that would depend entirely on what "end" you understand the events to be a sign of.

If, as I believe, the total, bloody, firey destruction of the whole nation of Israel and the end of the whole Mosaic economy at exactly the time and in precisely the manner foretold by the Law and the Prophets, if those things were the sign of the coming of Jesus, the institution of the New Covenant, and the end of the Old Covenant, then those events would certainly be dramatic and cataclysmic enough to qualify as eschatological signs.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[DNB]

And therein lies the rub. How is it that one person (a Futurist) can be so absolutely certain Jesus and the disciples (or any other prophesy instances) was/were addressing the End of The Earth — and another (equally intelligent, sane, responsible, rational and sincere) person (a Preterist) can be just as certain that things soon to happen in the lives of those Biblical people asking the questions or speaking the prophesies were being addressed?

We (either side, take your pick) like to label "those other people" as the ones who are kooks, since they do not see what we see... while it is "obviously" US who have the Sprit-given Truth...….. Something THEY can never have (without the special "God-Connection" WE have, exclusively).

Yes, of course, entirely subjective, and somewhat hypocritical, as each camp is accusing the other side based on their personal insights or exegesis.
But, for the sake of just not sitting on the fence, and employing whatever insight that i have gained from my personal Bible studies, I'm leaning towards that what we've experienced so far, as far as resembling the end times is concerned, are merely the beginning of birth pains. And, that the eschatological clock will actually start ticking, once the unprecedented and undeniable evidence begins to unfold.

Matthew 24:6. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

 

[DNB]

That would depend on what you think Jesus was talking about coming to an end. If, as I believe, he was talking about the end of the Temple and all it's beautiful buildings that would bring the Old Covenant dispensation to an end, then no other tragedy of the Jewish people since that day can compare with the loss of everything God had provided to enable them to keep covenant with him.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Very good point Pilgrimer. ...unfortunately, to me, Christ's discourse seemed to be regarding a wide span of events, some being the 'birth pains', while others, 'the end times'. As, incontrovertibly, he does end the discourse with events defining his 2nd coming?

Matthew 24:4-31
24:4. Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, 'and will deceive many. 6. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8. All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9. "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11. and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13. but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15. "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16. then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20. Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25. See, I have told you ahead of time. 26. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29. "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30. "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[DNB]

But that would depend entirely on what "end" you understand the events to be a sign of.

If, as I believe, the total, bloody, firey destruction of the whole nation of Israel and the end of the whole Mosaic economy at exactly the time and in precisely the manner foretold by the Law and the Prophets, if those things were the sign of the coming of Jesus, the institution of the New Covenant, and the end of the Old Covenant, then those events would certainly be dramatic and cataclysmic enough to qualify as eschatological signs.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Yes, of course, but this was confirmed to be as such, by the inspired writers. I have no contention with their fulfillment as being signs of the New Covenant. That is, not eschatological per se, as Preterism involves (if I'm not mistaken)?
But listen, bear with me here, eschatology is not my forté, i just thought that Preterism dealt exclusively with the 'guess work' involved in Biblical eschatological exegesis, not with confirmed, or expired (so to speak) prophecy?
I was actually asking more, than confirming anything, as I'm rather unstudied in that area.
Thanks Pilgrimer, I personally think that your points are totally valid!

 

[Davy]

I reject Preterism on the grounds that it forces Scripture to conform to their version of history. Most Preterists use Josephus' writings as their historical base. Then they search his writings for key words like "hail", "blood", etc. After finding such words, they go back to Scripture and say a verse referring to hail or blood is fulfilled by the event Josephus wrote about. For example, Josephus wrote about a massacre that left a section of water red with blood. The Preterist then says, "See, Rev 16:3 is fulfilled already; "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." Nonsense.

Pretty much to the point. The Preterist begins with this certain mindset, and everything must conform to it. Sounds pretty much like secular science today doesn't it? That actually can apply to anyone who tries to put a saddle on God's Living Word. They probably think it very acceptable to try that secular scientific type method with God's Word. But, it doesn't really work that way, because it creates a bubble where everything written in God's Word must be placed inside that bubble, and that is impossible to do.

Our Lord Jesus explain what that does with the parable that you don't put new wine into old bottles. The bottles actually mean wine skins. You don't put newly fermenting wine into wine skins that are old and brittle. They can't take the expansion so they'll burst. The new wine represents God's Word, and the wine skins represents our understanding of God's Word. Preterism causes one's mind to become like an old wine skin because it limits how much it can expand (i.e., understand).

Instead, the way we are to study and understand God's Word is by rightly dividing Scripture, allowing God's Word to interpret God's Word for us. There will be times when God's Word will show us some really profound things that might be hard for us to understand, yet there it is. We are to pray for understanding, and if God wants us to know, He will show us by The Holy Spirit. This is why many already have tried to use scientific methods to understand God's Word and they failed miserably.