Preterist Claims In 66-70AD Fulfillment Falls, As The Book Of Revelation Was Written In 96AD

[farouk]

do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

@David in NJ All born again believers since Pentecost are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, indeed, as per Romans 8.9.

 

[Curtis]

Besides what I mentioned on the other thread concerning the early writers, I do have a few more additions to the subject at this time.

1. In the Book of Revelation (2:9 and 3:9) it mentions false, pretender Jews. These false Jews are of the seed of the Pharisees and were the Judaizers after Christ ascended. They plagued the fledgling Christian community. After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, and the deaths and enslavements that ensued, these Judaizers would have all but disappeared. Why would John make mention of them as an issue that was already past?

Answer: the problem hasn’t ended, even today there are those such as the SDA that says we must keep sabbaths and the law of Moses.

2. As you said Paul around 50 AD established the church at Ephesus. One of 7 churches that John wrote about in Revelations. These 7 were well established even by 60 AD. If John wrote his book around 95 AD why would he only still mention the original 7 churches of Asia Minor. There should have been many dozens established by that time? He would have wrote about many more...

Answer: Those are seven types of churches that Jesus addresses. It doesn’t mean only 7 churches existed then. Many say the Sardis church represents the reformed church, as one example.

4. John in the Book of Revelation was told to the measure the Temple in Chapter 11. This must mean the Temple was still standing. And if one believes this Book of Revelation was written about 95 AD and this Temple really means a future, thousands of years in the future, new Temple rebuilt, why does not John mention the complete destruction of the 2nd Temple.

Answer: John was there to be shown what was to happen. Revelation is prophecy, not history. He also saw the new heavens and earth, which also is yet future. The third temple hasn’t been built yet, but plans have been made and priests trained.

5. In Rev 2:2 there are still apostles around, as the church of Ephesus has tested for the genuine article. So are we to believe that in 95 AD the apostles are still hanging around. They all were dead before by 70 AD...

Answer: apostle’s are listed along with teachers as an office of the church. Apostle means messenger, thus every preacher is a messenger and thus an apostle - and some churches in fact call their preachers apostles, and there are apostles named in the NT who weren’t of the original 12, including Paul.

 

[Daniel Veler]

Let me comment on the whore and the seventy weeks. It is said the great whore rides the beast. The beast had seven heads with seven kings. These are seven kingdoms. Jerusalem is not the whore. As gas as the seventy weeks it is written that the close of the sixty nine weeks we would see Christ crucified and Jerusalem destroyed leaving one week left. The seventy week. The seventh week is seen in revelation chapter eleven when time is declared no longer. The time span between the end of the sixty ninth weeks and the start of the seventieth week is the time span that God has allowed before the end will come.

 

[David in NJ]

1. In the Book of Revelation (2:9 and 3:9) it mentions false, pretender Jews. These false Jews are of the seed of the Pharisees and were the Judaizers after Christ ascended. They plagued the fledgling Christian community. After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, and the deaths and enslavements that ensued, these Judaizers would have all but disappeared. Why would John make mention of them as an issue that was already past?

Answer: the problem hasn’t ended, even today there are those such as the SDA that says we must keep sabbaths and the law of Moses.

2. As you said Paul around 50 AD established the church at Ephesus. One of 7 churches that John wrote about in Revelations. These 7 were well established even by 60 AD. If John wrote his book around 95 AD why would he only still mention the original 7 churches of Asia Minor. There should have been many dozens established by that time? He would have wrote about many more...

Answer: Those are seven types of churches that Jesus addresses. It doesn’t mean only 7 churches existed then. Many say the Sardis church represents the reformed church, as one example.

4. John in the Book of Revelation was told to the measure the Temple in Chapter 11. This must mean the Temple was still standing. And if one believes this Book of Revelation was written about 95 AD and this Temple really means a future, thousands of years in the future, new Temple rebuilt, why does not John mention the complete destruction of the 2nd Temple.

Answer: John was there to be shown what was to happen. Revelation is prophecy, not history. He also saw the new heavens and earth, which also is yet future. The third temple hasn’t been built yet, but plans have been made and priests trained.

5. In Rev 2:2 there are still apostles around, as the church of Ephesus has tested for the genuine article. So are we to believe that in 95 AD the apostles are still hanging around. They all were dead before by 70 AD...

Answer: apostle’s are listed along with teachers as an office of the church. Apostle means messenger, thus every preacher is a messenger and thus an apostle - and some churches in fact call their preachers apostles, and there are apostles named in the NT who weren’t of the original 12, including Paul.

Rev 2:2 and you have tested and exposed as liars those who falsely claim to be apostles.

There were only 12 Apostles. All the rest were false.
Under your definition of apostle as limited to a 'messenger' = anyone preaching Christ is then an apostle but that is not how the Scripture defined the 12 Apostles.

 

[David in NJ]

Let me comment on the whore and the seventy weeks. It is said the great whore rides the beast. The beast had seven heads with seven kings. These are seven kingdoms. Jerusalem is not the whore. As gas as the seventy weeks it is written that the close of the sixty nine weeks we would see Christ crucified and Jerusalem destroyed leaving one week left. The seventy week. The seventh week is seen in revelation chapter eleven when time is declared no longer. The time span between the end of the sixty ninth weeks and the start of the seventieth week is the time span that God has allowed before the end will come.

After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. - Daniel 9:26

 

[David in NJ]

Let me comment on the whore and the seventy weeks. It is said the great whore rides the beast. The beast had seven heads with seven kings. These are seven kingdoms. Jerusalem is not the whore. As gas as the seventy weeks it is written that the close of the sixty nine weeks we would see Christ crucified and Jerusalem destroyed leaving one week left. The seventy week. The seventh week is seen in revelation chapter eleven when time is declared no longer. The time span between the end of the sixty ninth weeks and the start of the seventieth week is the time span that God has allowed before the end will come.

The Beginning of the 1,000 Year Reign is the Revelation 10:6. It is not the any 7 year period on earth.

There is no 7 year period to be fulfilled. 1260 days are to be fulfilled.

The LORD fulfilled, in Himself, the first half of the 7th week.

Time no longer is directly refering to the end of this present satanic ruling age and for the Mystery of God to BEGIN.

 

[Daniel Veler]

The Beginning of the 1,000 Year Reign is the Revelation 10:6. It is not the any 7 year period on earth.

There is no 7 year period to be fulfilled. 1260 days are to be fulfilled.

The LORD fulfilled, in Himself, the first half of the 7th week.

Time no longer is directly refering to the end of this present satanic ruling age and for the Mystery of God to BEGIN.

Is you understanding based on human reasoning or understanding from the Lord?

 

[David in NJ]

Is you understanding based on human reasoning or understanding from the Lord?

It is written: "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,
the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Rev 10:7

Based on "It is written" = the word's of the LORD Jesus Christ and the Apostles and the Holy Prophets.

PEACE

 

[Daniel Veler]

Scot what you are doing is denying revelation. You are on dangerous ground for taking away from revelation.

 

[Truth7t7]

Let me comment on the whore and the seventy weeks. It is said the great whore rides the beast. The beast had seven heads with seven kings. These are seven kingdoms. Jerusalem is not the whore. As gas as the seventy weeks it is written that the close of the sixty nine weeks we would see Christ crucified and Jerusalem destroyed leaving one week left. The seventy week. The seventh week is seen in revelation chapter eleven when time is declared no longer. The time span between the end of the sixty ninth weeks and the start of the seventieth week is the time span that God has allowed before the end will come.

(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

Revelation 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jews/Hebrews cast dust upon their heads, weeping for the (Great City) Jerusalem

Revelation 18:19AKJV
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

 

[Daniel Veler]

When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
By Wayne Jackson

Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).

A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.

In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:

When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).

Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).

To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.

Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.

The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).

According to Daniel the Lord told him that 70 weeks would be fulfilled. He see the break down on the seventy weeks. The one I’d like to talk about is what happens during the 62 weeks. It is written that Christ would come and be crucified and Jerusalem would be destroyed. The 62 weeks ended with the destruction of Jerusalem. Revelation was written around 96ad after the 62 weeks come to a close. This left one week left. The time span between the ending of the 62 weeks and the start of the 70th week represents God Grace.

 

[Truth7t7]

According to Daniel the Lord told him that 70 weeks would be fulfilled. He see the break down on the seventy weeks. The one I’d like to talk about is what happens during the 62 weeks. It is written that Christ would come and be crucified and Jerusalem would be destroyed. The 62 weeks ended with the destruction of Jerusalem. Revelation was written around 96ad after the 62 weeks come to a close. This left one week left. The time span between the ending of the 62 weeks and the start of the 70th week represents God Grace.

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained "Future"?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 "Future" literal weeks will be in building to Messiah, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building "Messiah Cut Off"

The "Future" 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Daniel Veler]

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained "Future"?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 "Future" literal weeks will be in building to Messiah, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building "Messiah Cut Off"

The "Future" 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What is your point? That the 70 weeks is future and Christ must be cut off again? You quote scriptures without a point.

 

[Truth7t7]

What is your point? That the 70 weeks is future and Christ must be cut off again? You quote scriptures without a point.

It's your claim Christ was previously cut off I disagree

Daniel's 70 weeks are future, we disagree

Thanks for the response, Jesus Is The Lord