PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[David in NJ]

You cling to a lie.
Of course you will not investigate the obvious.
Truth that is hidden in plain sight disgusts you.
Your formula for your doctrine GUARANTEES ERROR, BECAUSE IT IS YOUR DOCTRINE THAT PROHIBITS INVESTIGATION.

Watchtower deceivers are exactly the same.
They are forbidden as you are, to investigate.

I have taken the time to learn your doctrine. I know it even better than you do and I can present it better than you do or anybody on this forum. I know your doctrine frontwards and backwards.
You on the other hand.
, do not know the pre-tribulation RAPTURE
doctrine.
All you know is you don't like it.
You don't want to investigate it, and anybody that takes the time to be a Bible hound, and investigate it, is classified by you as Satan,...
So what you are now into is , without a doubt, invincible ignorance.

i cling to the words of the LORD = "Immediately after the tribulation.........I Come"

So you are saying that the LORD lied...............

 

[David in NJ]

You know you are in trouble when your doctrine not only forbids investigation, but you yourself have no desire for it.

That is legalistic deadness.
No hunger
No desire for truth.

i fully encourage anyone's and everyone's "investigation" in the Holy Scriptures

 

[David in NJ]

No intelligence.
No thoughtful intelligent debate.
More parroting postrib rapture workbook sentences.

It would be very beneficial if you stopped doing that

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Angels do not have the power the translate/change your body from corruptible to incorruptible.

Where did I say they did? Nowhere. I specifically told you that I believe God changes our bodies from corruptible to incorruptible and that the angels then gather us and bring us to meet Christ in the air. How did you miss that?

So Matthew 24:31 involving angels gathering is not referring to the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians 4:14-18.

Your evidence for that is non-existent. Where does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 say that Jesus alone gathers us to meet Him in the air? Nowhere. You are making an argument from silence here.

Tell me why Jesus Himself would gather us at the resurrection and rapture of 1 Thess 4:14-18, but then use the angels to gather the elect in Matthew 24:29-31 if those were different events? How does that make any sense?

 

[WPM]

Please look for the post that has already addressed these things.

LOL.

No, you have repeatedly avoided these. You answered Q1 with an irrelevant evasive answer once. That is it! You have nothing. If you had it you would give it.

 

[WPM]

If there is only one coming of Jesus what do you do with this coming of Jesus for the 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest.

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

And it's laughable that you mention the Roman Church where Agustus was one of the prime creators of the doctrine you follow.

These are the firstfruits of the great commission. These are the dead in Christ in heaven right now.

Revelation 14:1, 3-5 describes: “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads ... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

Let us start with a few absolutes:

1. As the redeemed of God, the 144,000 belong to Christ, and therefore His body the Church. They are before the Lamb. We see that this company are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." It says that "these are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." These are Christians! These are followers of Christ. They have a new song of deliverance and victory because they have experienced the new birth. Like us, these are they who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus. Revelation 7:3-4 confirms that the 144,000 are “sealed.” This is a description that is reserved exclusively for redeemed Christians in the new covenant period (2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30).
2. This text is speaking of the heavenly "mount Sion." The 144,000 are “before the throne.” His throne is not on earth. It is in heaven. Jesus is definitely not physically on earth now. He is physically in heaven. The 144,000 are also said to be the “redeemed from the earth.” They have been caught up upon death to be with their Saviour. They are now "without fault before the throne of God.” Their earthly struggle with sin is now over. Their earthly sojourn is completed.
3. This scene occurs well before the Second Advent, not after.
4. The 144,000 thousand are "the firstfruits." You have obviously overlooked that important issue. You make them “the last-fruits” in order to make Premil fit. But it doesn't. This must surely point us to the 1st century. It would seem wrong to place them in some type of end time tribulation, which would render them the last-fruits and not the firstfruits.

 

[WPM]

1 Thes 4

Where is your 7 year trib or any lengthy trib in 1 Thess 4 after the catching away? It is time to cough up or shut up

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL.

No, you have repeatedly avoided these. You answer Q1 with an irrelevant evasive answer once. That is it! You have nothing. If you had it you would give it.

Can you believe how some people here just blatantly lie on a regular basis? It's unbelievable. He acted like he addressed all of your questions when anyone who has been following the thread knows he did not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These are the firstfruits of the great commission. These are the dead in Christ in heaven right now.

Revelation 14:1, 3-5 describes: “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads ... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

Let us start with a few absolutes:

1. As the redeemed of God, the 144,000 belong to Christ, and therefore His body the Church. They are before the Lamb. We see that this company are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." It says that "these are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." These are Christians! These are followers of Christ. They have a new song of deliverance and victory because they have experienced the new birth. Like us, these are they who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus. Revelation 7:3-4 confirms that the 144,000 are “sealed.” This is a description that is reserved exclusively for redeemed Christians in the new covenant period (2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30).
2. This text is speaking of the heavenly "mount Sion." The 144,000 are “before the throne.” His throne is not on earth. It is in heaven. Jesus is definitely not physically on earth now. He is physically in heaven. The 144,000 are also said to be the “redeemed from the earth.” They have been caught up upon death to be with their Saviour. They are now "without fault before the throne of God.” Their earthly struggle with sin is now over. Their earthly sojourn is completed.
3. This scene occurs well before the Second Advent, not after.
4. The 144,000 thousand are "the firstfruits." You have obviously overlooked that important issue. You make them “the last-fruits” in order to make Premil fit. But it doesn't. This must surely point us to the 1st century. It would seem wrong to place them in some type of end time tribulation, which would render them the last-fruits and not the firstfruits.

Exactly! What John was seeing were the souls of all believers in heaven who had been spiritually redeemed by the blood of Christ up to that point in time, which is why they are referred to as the firstfruits. Like you said, he's trying to turn them into the lastfruits instead. Pre-tribs are always manipulating and twisting scripture to fit their doctrine.

 

[The Light]

LOL.

No, you have repeatedly avoided these. You answered Q1 with an irrelevant evasive answer once. That is it! You have nothing. If you had it you would give it.

How many times do you have to be answered. Everyone knows you MO. Deny, you've been answered.......deny, deny, deny.

I could answer a thousand times, and it would be DENY, DENY, DENY.

On a side note, many of questions you ask want to limit the use of the Old Testament. Are you saying the Old Testament is not he Word of God?

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No, I was not describing "soul sleep". I don't believe in soul sleep. I believe that when a Christian dies, their soul goes to heaven to be with the Lord. And that their bodies return to the dust of earth, just as God said in Genesis.

Well then Douggg what do we call those dead people who are resurrected at the 2nd Resurrection (the wicked peoples judgment? are their souls not sleeping?) The fatal flaw many have is they think when we die we go straight to heaven, that just a fantasy. We are raised at the Pre Trib. Rapture, if we are dead of course, if alive we are Raptured ala CHANGED (from flesh man to spirit man..........WE DIE and our uncorrupt spirit man goes to be with the Lord) Dan. 12:1-2 also says WE SLEEP a does Paul in 1 Cor. 15:50-52.

 

[The Light]

Where is your 7 year trib or any lengthy trib in 1 Thess 4 after the catching away? It is time to cough up or shut up

Where is the Son of man three days and three nights in the heart of the earth in 1 Thes 4?

 

[The Light]

Can you believe how some people here just blatantly lie on a regular basis? It's unbelievable. He acted like he addressed all of your questions when anyone who has been following the thread knows he did not.

Yeah, not only do I believe it, but I've also seen it. Some go so far as changing the Word of God that they quote.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

That 'tribulation saints' idea FALSELY ASSUMES that some will convert to Jesus DURING the "great tribulation", when that is NOT written in God's Word.

What's not written in God's Word is that it's not possible to get born again during the great tribulation.

Many who are not right with the Lord having previously been walking with Him (backsliders) will not be taken in the rapture and those that don't believe in the rapture will not be taken with so according to their faith it will be done unto them (they reap what they sow)

So right off the bat there will be those that recognize the error of their ways having been left behind and will be repenting and getting right with the Lord having to go thru the great tribulation - and these people will be witnessing to others telling them how to get right with the Lord so there's more believers coming on board there

You know God's Word does not specifically say smoking crack is sinful behavior but it is so something are true even though they are not specifically mentioned in scripture.

I've actually heard of people claiming doing coke is not actually a sin since the Bible never says that it is, but in the end tthey will learn it is sinful behavior.

You won't be laughing when you find yourself appearing at my feet under Christ's future "thousand years" reign. I think I may ask Lord Jesus for you to be under my rod of correction then.

Well good luck with all that.

I'm not drinking the stinky Davy Gravy - it's not of the Lord.

You got that god complex running full steam ahead don't ya fake bro man?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How many times do you have to be answered. Everyone knows you MO. Deny, you've been answered.......deny, deny, deny.

I could answer a thousand times, and it would be DENY, DENY, DENY.

On a side note, many of questions you ask want to limit the use of the Old Testament. Are you saying the Old Testament is not he Word of God?

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Scripture never teaches two separate future raptures/harvests, so just give it up already. Why would the NT be silent about it if it was taught in the OT? Do you think Paul wasn't aware of what the Old Testament taught? He wrote about the rapture and only wrote about one rapture. Why would he not have written about two if there were two? I'm sure he would have because there would have been no reason not to. But, he did not. And neither did any other NT author. Jesus never spoke of two raptures. It's a figment of your very active imagination.

The Old Testament most certainly did not teach of two future raptures/harvest, but go ahead and show where you think it does and explain why the New Testament never does while you're at it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, not only do I believe it, but I've also seen it. Some go so far as changing the Word of God that they quote.

You lied about addressing his questions. You did not. That was a blatant lie. So, look in the mirror.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What's not written in God's Word is that it's not possible to get born again during the great tribulation.

Many who are not right with the Lord having previously been walking with Him (backsliders) will not be taken in the rapture and those that don't believe in the rapture will not be taken with so according to their faith it will be done unto them (they reap what they sow)

So right off the bat there will be those that recognize the error of their ways having been left behind and will be repenting and getting right with the Lord having to go thru the great tribulation - and these people will be witnessing to others telling them how to get right with the Lord so there's more believers coming on board there

Those left behind will be killed and it will be too late for them to repent. That is what Jesus taught. Please read this.

Luke 17:26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] 37 “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

Let's start at the beginning to see what Jesus taught in this passage. First, in verses 26 and 27, He talks about the days leading up to His second coming being similar to the days of Noah that preceded the flood. Then He points out that "the flood came and destroyed them all". All who were left behind outside the ark were destroyed, in other words. Then He points out similar things about the days of Lot in comparison to the days leading up to the second coming of Christ and He again points out that all unbelievers who were not taken out from Sodom like Lot and his family were left behind in the city and were destroyed by fire.

Then Jesus points out that no one should try to save their possessions because it will be too late for anyone to do that and anyone doing that is too attached to the world and their life in this world instead of being focused on eternity and being with Jesus like they should be. Lot's wife is given as an example of how we can't be too attached to this world and our lives in this world. That is unacceptable to God for us to love our lives in this world more than we love Him. Lot's wife paid the price for loving the world and her life in this world more than God and that's a warning for everyone.

Then Jesus, using Lot's wife as an example, said that those who want to keep their life, like Lot's wife did, will lose it (will be killed) and whoever loses their life (is willing to give up their lives for God) will preserve it (will be spared and not killed).

Then we get to verse 34 where Jesus gives examples of two people being together with one being taken and one left. Those verses, in and of themselves, tell us nothing about what happens to those taken and to those left, but we can figure that out from the previous verses that speak of events where some were taken away and escaped God's wrath and some were left behind and did not escape His wrath, like in Noah and Lot's days. From those events, regardless of what it means to be taken and what it means to be left (there is some disagreement about that), we know that it means all people either survive Christ's second coming or they are killed. The ones who are left behind on the earth do not survive to face tribulation as pre-tribs believe. They are killed just as those left behind out of the ark were killed and those left behind in Sodom were killed.

Some people think the question the disciples asked at that point ("Where, Lord?") is related to where those who are taken are taken to, but I disagree with that. I think they are just asking where it will take place that one is taken and one is left and Jesus is saying it will happen wherever a dead body is found. Since His second coming is a global event, His answer to the question is basically "everywhere" since unbelievers all over the world will suffer His wrath and vengeance when He comes (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

So, this passage is a problem for pre-tribs who think those left behind survive to live another day and then have to face "the tribulation". No, they do not. They will be killed, just as Jesus taught.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well then Douggg what do we call those dead people who are resurrected at the 2nd Resurrection (the wicked peoples judgment? are their souls not sleeping?) The fatal flaw many have is they think when we die we go straight to heaven, that just a fantasy. We are raised at the Pre Trib. Rapture, if we are dead of course, if alive we are Raptured ala CHANGED (from flesh man to spirit man..........WE DIE and our uncorrupt spirit man goes to be with the Lord) Dan. 12:1-2 also says WE SLEEP a does Paul in 1 Cor. 15:50-52.

You've been preaching for 40 years and you seem to teach nothing but false doctrine. Soul sleep is not taught in scripture. The rich man and the beggar Lazarus that Jesus talked about in Luke 16:19-31 were physically dead, but still conscious and not sleeping. The souls of dead believers that John saw in heaven were conscious (Revelation 6:9-11). What a waste of 40 years of just preaching things from your imagination instead of from scripture.

 

[The Light]

These are the firstfruits of the great commission. These are the dead in Christ in heaven right now.

Revelation 14:1, 3-5 describes: “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads ... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

Is that what you taught you.

Here is what the Word teaches.

Revelation 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Let us start with a few absolutes:

1. As the redeemed of God, the 144,000 belong to Christ, and therefore His body the Church.

They are part of the body of the great multitude.

1. They are before the Lamb. We see that this company are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." It says that "these are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." These are Christians!

Exactly they are Christians. They are of the 12 tribes of Israel. This happens after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

1. These are followers of Christ. They have a new song of deliverance and victory because they have experienced the new birth. Like us, these are they who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus. Revelation 7:3-4 confirms that the 144,000 are “sealed.” This is a description that is reserved exclusively for redeemed Christians in the new covenant period (2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30).

Yeah, they are redeemed Christians from 12 tribes of Israel.

1. This text is speaking of the heavenly "mount Sion." The 144,000 are “before the throne.” His throne is not on earth.

LOL. Mount Sion is not in heaven. I guess you missed the part where the 144,000 are redeemed FROM the earth.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

1. It is in heaven. Jesus is definitely not physically on earth now. He is physically in heaven.

Right.

1. The 144,000 are also said to be the “redeemed from the earth.” They have been caught up upon death to be with their Saviour. They are now "without fault before the throne of God.” Their earthly struggle with sin is now over. Their earthly sojourn is completed.

Sorry. They are first fruits that are redeemed from the earth. Jesus goes to Mount Sion and the 144,000 are gathered there, just like the Word says.

1. This scene occurs well before the Second Advent, not after.

Obviously.

1. The 144,000 thousand are "the firstfruits." You have obviously overlooked that important issue.

Doubtful. It seems you do not understand what first fruits are.

1. You make them “the last-fruits” in order to make Premil fit.

LOL. The are first fruits of the second harvest.

The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits but Israel was found as wild grapes. Israel would no longer be the first harvest of the fig tree as they served Baalpeor.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Whoops. There's that pesky Old Testament. It always gets in the with providing truth. No wonder you want to ban the use of it.

1. But it doesn't. This must surely point us to the 1st century. It would seem wrong to place them in some type of end time tribulation, which would render them the last-fruits and not the firstfruits.

They are the first fruits of the second harvest of the fig tree. See Hosea 9:10 above.

The Gentiles become the first harvest. As the scripture shows, the fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits. They weren't. After the pretribulation rapture of the Church there has to be first fruits of the second harvest. Hence the 144,000 from the 12 tribes.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. Mount Sion is not in heaven. I guess you missed the part where the 144,000 are redeemed FROM the earth.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

LOL. You have no discernment whatsoever. They are in heaven after having been redeemed from the earth. Mount Zion IS in heaven. Have you never read this...

Hebrews 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.” 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Because of your extreme ignorance, you were not even aware that there is an earthly Mount Zion that can be touched and also a heavenly Mount Zion. Are you also not aware of "the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" and think there is only an earthly Jerusalem?