PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[Douggg]

That's unbelievable to me that you can't discern that what happened in 70 AD was God's wrath against the Jews who rejected His Son.

How do you interpret this passage:

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

Matthew 22 is a continuation of Matthew 21:45 as the chief priests and Pharisees perceived he spoke of them.

So, the Matthew 22:1 parable is about who will enter the kingdom of heaven and who will not. The chief priests and the Pharisees were the bad guys in the parable who were invited to the parable's wedding of the king's son, but refused, and killed the king's messengers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 22 is a continuation of Matthew 21:45 as the chief priests and Pharisees perceived he spoke of them.

So, the Matthew 22:1 parable is about who will enter the kingdom of heaven and who will not. The chief priests and the Pharisees were the bad guys in the parable who were invited to the parable's wedding of the king's son, but refused, and killed the king's messengers.

You're leaving some things out there for some reason. What you said is true, but there's more to it than that. You didn't address the verse I wanted you to address, which I highlighted in red.

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

What do you think Matthew 22:7 is about? Who does the king represent and what armies is it talking about? Who are the murderers and what is their city that the king's armies were going to burn up and when did that happen?

 

[Douggg]

You're leaving some things out there for some reason. What you said is true, but there's more to it than that. You didn't address the verse I wanted you to address, which I highlighted in red.

Yes, I understand your rationale if you want to apply that part of the parable to God taking vengeance out on the Jews by having the Romans destroy Jerusalem.

The reason I disagree with that application is because bad guys in the parable are the high priests and the Pharisees, not all of the Jews.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I understand your rationale if you want to apply that part of the parable to God taking vengeance out on the Jews by having the Romans destroy Jerusalem.

The reason I disagree with that application is because bad guys in the parable are the high priests and the Pharisees, not all of the Jews.

I'm not saying it's talking about all Jews. Just read what I say and don't read things into what I say. I'm talking about unbelieving Jews like the high priests and Pharisees. What happened to them when they were killed in 70 AD was God's wrath and that is what Matthew 22:7 is referring to. Do you agree with that or not? Believers fled to the mountains like Jesus said to do, so they avoided His wrath.

 

[Douggg]

I'm not saying it's talking about all Jews. Just read what I say and don't read things into what I say. I'm talking about unbelieving Jews like the high priests and Pharisees. What happened to them when they were killed in 70 AD was God's wrath and that is what Matthew 22:7 is referring to. Do you agree with that or not? Believers fled to the mountains like Jesus said to do, so they avoided His wrath.

I don't know that all the high priests and Pharisees were killed in 70 AD. Maybe they were or maybe they weren't. I have no problem that you can have you opinion regarding the parable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't know that all the high priests and Pharisees were killed in 70 AD. Maybe they were or maybe they weren't. I have no problem that you can have you opinion regarding the parable.

Douggg, don't make this more complicated than it needs to be. I'm talking about the ones who were killed at that time. Was that God's wrath or not? Matthew 22:7 indicates that it was. Do you agree or not? I don't know why you are being so evasive. Just be honest, please.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, don't make this more complicated than it needs to be. I'm talking about the ones who were killed at that time. Was that God's wrath or not? Matthew 22:7 indicates that it was. Do you agree or not? I don't know why you are being so evasive. Just be honest, please.

In my opinion, no, because there were believers in Jesus killed during the Jewish-Romans war as well. We simply disagree. I am not trying to force you to agree with my opinion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my opinion, no, because there were believers in Jesus killed during the Jewish-Romans war as well. We simply disagree. I am not trying to force you to agree with my opinion.

Of course you can't force me to agree with your opinion, but I'm trying to get you to think about this and give an honest opinion free of doctrinal bias. I don't think you have studied that parable closely before. So, don't just make assumptions about it. I told you that I'm talking only about unbelieving Jews who were killed in 70 AD. Do you not think that is what Matthew 22:7 is talking about? If so, then don't you think it was God's wrath that killed the unbelieving Jews? If not, then how do you interpret that verse?

 

[Douggg]

Of course you can't force me to agree with your opinion, but I'm trying to get you to think about this and give an honest opinion free of doctrinal bias. I don't think you have studied that parable closely before. So, don't just make assumptions about it. I told you that I'm talking only about unbelieving Jews who were killed in 70 AD. Do you not think that is what Matthew 22:7 is talking about? If so, then don't you think it was God's wrath that killed the unbelieving Jews? If not, then how do you interpret that verse?

I don't want to keep repeating myself. We simply have different opinions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't want to keep repeating myself. We simply have different opinions.

I don't even know what your opinion is of what Matthew 22:7 means. Can you at least tell me that?

 

[Douggg]

I don't even know what your opinion is of what Matthew 22:7 means. Can you at least tell me that?

Matthew 22:7 is part of a parable.

My opinion is that Matthew 22:7 is referring to to the high priests and pharisees.

Now can we drop it ? You have your view of how that parable applies regarding the destruction of Jerusalem and I have mine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 22:7 is part of a parable.

My opinion is that Matthew 22:7 is referring to to the high priests and pharisees.

But, do you consider them being killed in 70 AD to be God's wrath or not?

Now can we drop it ?

Douggg, I ask you very simple questions and you have trouble with them. That's very strange to me. I think you need to give all these things much more thought and ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7) before you draw any conclusions about any of this.

You have your view of how that parable applies regarding the destruction of Jerusalem and I have mine.

What is yours? I am simply asking you if you think Matthew 22:7 is referring to God's wrath against the unbelieving high priests and Pharisees in 70 AD? Yes or no. If yes, then I'm not sure why you would deny that what happened in 70 AD involved God's wrath like you were doing before when you attributed it to the wrath of the Romans. Matthew 22:7 shows that God used the Roman armies to take out His wrath on unbelieving Jews like the priests and Pharisees.

 

[Douggg]

But, do you consider them being killed in 70 AD to be God's wrath or not?

imo, no.

What is yours? I am simply asking you if you think Matthew 22:7 is referring to God's wrath against the unbelieving high priests and Pharisees in 70 AD? Yes or no.

imo, no.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation 14 is a complicated chapter to interpret. I think you will agree with me on that point.

You say you are focusing on verse 14, but that verse does not say anything regarding the 144,000 that John saw in the opening 5 verses. verse 14 only indicates that John saw Jesus with a sharp sickle, and then Jesus was told the time has come to reap in verse 15, and Jesus reaps the earth in verse 16.

If the reaping applies to the 144,000 - are they raptured, are they killed, or what ?


An overview of Revelation 14:

verses 1-5 are about the 144,000

next...

verses 6-13 are three angels delivering proclamations.

first angel - proclaims the preaching of the gospel throughout the earth to every nation, kindred, and tongue, and people.

second angel - proclaims the fall of Babylon.

third angel - proclaims the punishment of them who worship the beast and his image, and take his mark in forehead or hand. And encouragement to the saints, who die in the Lord.

next....

verses 14-16 Jesus having a sharp sickle. Time to reap, the harvest of the earth is ripe. Jesus reaps the earth.

verses 17-20 an angel also having a sharp sickle. Time to reap, the grapes are fully ripe. The angel reaps and the grapes cast into the winepress of God's wrath. The winepress trodden down, not including the city (Jerusalem), and blood comes out of the winepress, the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs (200 miles, the length of Israel).

We only know that they are ethnic Jews, and that they are firstfruit Jews, and they are in heaven in Rev 14.
( martyred or raptured as you indicate)
If they are firstfruits then that is part of harvest.
Main harvest Jews are to follow.
Rev 14;14 is the main harvest.

Nowhere else is Jesus holding a sickle.
It is a unique unto itself harvest.

Fruit harvest.
Not grain.

 

[rebuilder 454]

@The Light
@rebuilder 454

Do you ever use the online kjv word search feature ? It is very handy.

If you type in more than one word and search a phrase - it gives many partial results. The thing to do is click on the "modify search" button. Then click on "phrase match".

Ok ...thanks buddy.

 

[The Light]

Revelation 14 is a complicated chapter to interpret. I think you will agree with me on that point.

You say you are focusing on verse 14, but that verse does not say anything regarding the 144,000 that John saw in the opening 5 verses. verse 14 only indicates that John saw Jesus with a sharp sickle, and then Jesus was told the time has come to reap in verse 15, and Jesus reaps the earth in verse 16.

If the reaping applies to the 144,000 - are they raptured, are they killed, or what ?


An overview of Revelation 14:

verses 1-5 are about the 144,000

The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth......they are raptured from the earth are before the throne in heaven. They are first fruits of the harvest of the twelve tribes across the earth.

next...

verses 6-13 are three angels delivering proclamations.

first angel - proclaims the preaching of the gospel throughout the earth to every nation, kindred, and tongue, and people.

second angel - proclaims the fall of Babylon.

third angel - proclaims the punishment of them who worship the beast and his image, and take his mark in forehead or hand. And encouragement to the saints, who die in the Lord.

You skipped comment on this verse.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the great tribulation............this is the 5th seal.

next....

verses 14-16 Jesus having a sharp sickle. Time to reap, the harvest of the earth is ripe. Jesus reaps the earth.

verses 17-20 an angel also having a sharp sickle. Time to reap, the grapes are fully ripe. The angel reaps and the grapes cast into the winepress of God's wrath. The winepress trodden down, not including the city (Jerusalem), and blood comes out of the winepress, the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs (200 miles, the length of Israel).

This is the harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth..........the second rapture. This is the 6th seal.

 

[WPM]

The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth......they are raptured from the earth are before the throne in heaven. They are first fruits of the harvest of the twelve tribes across the earth.


You skipped comment on this verse.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the great tribulation............this is the 5th seal.


This is the harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth..........the second rapture. This is the 6th seal.

LOL. Please tell us where your 1st rapture is? It seems to be a figment of your imagination.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

imo, no.

Matthew 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

You don't think that the king in this verse represents God? Clearly, this verse is describing the king's wrath and the king represents God. So, I can't imagine how you can deny that this verse is referring to God's wrath.

 

[Douggg]

You skipped comment on this verse.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the great tribulation............this is the 5th seal.

Yes, I agree.

 

[WPM]

The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth......they are raptured from the earth are before the throne in heaven. They are first fruits of the harvest of the twelve tribes across the earth.


You skipped comment on this verse.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the great tribulation............this is the 5th seal.


This is the harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth..........the second rapture. This is the 6th seal.

So what is Rev 19, your 3rd rapture?