Promises to His People

[Zao is life]

Sadly in your zeal to prove your biased understanding you have deliberately edited the part of my post that you quoted.

Sadly, in your Zeal to mislead others you have falsely implied that I misquoted you, adding a false accusation to your corruption of the Word of God.

This is ONE PART OF THE VERY LONG POST that you posted, and the part of a passage you quoted that I highlighted:​

A New Covenant

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make like new again the covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the country of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):

36 "If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever."

37 Thus says the Lord:

"If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.

38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that the city shall be built for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

I highlighted this part of the passage you quoted:

"If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel​

For all that they have done, says the Lord.

They were not all cast off, as Paul stated when he mentioned the remnant that were not cast off in Romans 11:1-5.​

Even the jews do not have your understanding of Jeremiah 31:31

Tell us something new. Talmudic Judaism is the result. The Jews either do not believe in Jesus as a result, and some of those who do believe in Jesus have the same corrupted interpretation of the gospel that you do (although nor all Jews who believe in Jesus follow the same corruption of the gospel).

Old news.

Your are pushing your own corrupted gospel, my friend.

 

[Jay Ross]

Thats OK, I am used to the threads going in all directions, all good discussions.

What I do know, is what God is doing and is going to do.
That the Prophetic Word conflicts with your beliefs, is your problem. The gathering of the faithful Christian peoples into all of the holy Land, is well supported Biblically:
Isaiah 65:9 My chosen people, those who serve Me, will inherit the holy Land.
Psalms 69:32-36....Those who serve Me will live there....
Romans 9:24-26 The Christian peoples will be called the children of the Living God, in the very place where ancient Israel was rejected.

I have no problems with my understanding of God's word. On the other hand, you are having a problem with what I am posting since it is very different to your private understanding which you envisage will happen in the future.

This is how you are paraphrasing Isaiah 65:9: - My chosen people, those who serve Me, will inherit the holy Land.

However, after checking the Hebrew text in an interlinear, this is how I would suggest the verse should be paraphrases:-

9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir for My mountain;
The chosen one shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.

Your claim that this verse is referencing the Holy Land is a furphy on your part.

God's consistent promise in Deu to Ezekiel is that when He gathers Israel to Himself that He will plant them in the fertile field/soil of His faithful servant Israel.

God has been faithfully waiting for Israel to repent of their idolatrous past so that at the end of the fourth age of their existence He will be able to gather them once more to himself.

Perhaps you need to search your heart as to why your understanding is very different to God's word.

 

[Jay Ross]

Sadly, in your Zeal to mislead others you have falsely implied that I misquoted you, adding a false accusation to your corruption of the Word of God.

Your hide must be very thick as you defend your claim with a proven false claim of having not edited my post to bolster your understanding.

In Jer 31:31ff what is the covenant that God is referencing in Exodus that he is promising to make like new in Jer 31:31ff.

Is not God wanting to make like new again the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among the Nations Covenant, that he had made with the Israelites at Mr Sinai?

It is obvious to me that your observational understanding of what I have posts misses the mark by a large country mile. If you cannot understand the gist of what I have posted, then why try and show your superiority by miss quoting what I had actually posted thereby demonstrating what is lacking in your rebuttal.

Goodbye.

 

[Zao is life]

In Jer 31:31ff what is the covenant that God is referencing in Exodus that he is promising to make like new in Jer 31:31ff.

Is not God wanting to make like new again the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among the Nations Covenant, that he had made with the Israelites at Mr Sinai?

It is obvious to me that your observational understanding of what I have posts misses the mark by a large country mile. If you cannot understand the gist of what I have posted, then why try and show your superiority by miss quoting what I had actually posted thereby demonstrating what is lacking in your rebuttal.

Goodbye.

You seem to insist that the old covenant and it's system has been "kept alive and well" as the basis for Israel's covenant relationship with God. This assertion of yours is as full of falsehood as Talmudic Judaism and the pseudo-Christianity that is based on it (and which you are propagating as "truth") can get.

Unlike what you assert, the New Covenant promise does not say it would make the old covenant or any part of it "like new" (as you falsely assert). It says nothing of the sort.

The New Covenant promise specifically stated that the New Covenant would not be (anything) like that old covenant:

NetFree version quoting the prophet Jeremiah's mention of the New Covenant:

32 It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them," says the LORD.

KJV
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:*n

The priesthood has been changed and there has been a complete and total change in the law. The priestly system in the law, which you are referring to as being "made like new" was only the shadow and pattern of the New Covenant priesthood. It was REPLACED by the new covenant.
​

11 So if perfection had in fact been possible through the Levitical priesthood - for on that basis the people received the law - what further need would there have been for another priest to arise, said to be in the order of Melchizedek and not in Aaron's order? 12 For when the priesthood changes, a change in the law must come as well.

13 Yet the one these things are spoken about belongs to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever officiated at the altar.

14 For it is clear that our Lord is descended from Judah, yet Moses said nothing about priests in connection with that tribe. 15 And this is even clearer if another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become a priest not by a legal regulation about physical descent but by the power of an indestructible life. 17 For here is the testimony about him: "You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." 18 On the one hand a former command is set aside because it is weak and useless, 19 for the law made nothing perfect. On the other hand a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. 20 And since this was not done without a sworn affirmation - for the others have become priests without a sworn affirmation, 21 but Jesus did so with a sworn affirmation by the one who said to him, "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever'" - 22 accordingly Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. -- Hebrews 7.

Goodbye.

 

[Zao is life]

Your hide must be very thick as you defend your claim with a proven false claim of having not edited my post to bolster your understanding.

Your false accusation is making you look really silly.

What part of your post that I quoted was not in your post? There was none. I quoted part of YOUR post.

I quoted part of your post and highlighted the word ALL in Jeremiah 31:37a - one of the scriptures which YOU quoted in YOUR post - which was important, since it appears as though you pretend the word is not there, and you pretend that Jeremiah 31: 37 is not saying that a remnant of the seed of Israel would be saved - as Paul stated in Romans 11:5. The rest remain broken off through their unbelief unless like all unbelievers they repent and turn to faith in Christ.

Your insults mean absolutely zero - because your hide must be very thick if you cannot see what my post said about that part of all the scriptures you quoted in your post, and what it says about your false assertions.

Goodbye.

 

[Zao is life]

I have no problems with my understanding of God's word.

I beg to differ.

9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
God has been faithfully waiting for Israel to repent of their idolatrous past so that at the end of the fourth age of their existence He will be able to gather them once more to himself.

And Israel has repented because Israel is in Christ and there is no Israel outside of the (Christian) faith, no matter what those outside of the Christian faith are called. Those who are naturally-born descendants of Jacob who are broken off from Israel through their unbelief remain broken off unless and until they repent of their unbelief. Many have repented, and many do repent. This has been ongoing ever since the Deliverer came out of Zion nearly 2,000 years ago and made the New Covenant with Jacob's seed in the day He took away their sins.

Perhaps you need to search your heart as to why your understanding is very different to God's word.

I know you were talking to @Keraz but perhaps you need to search you heart as to why your gospel that you preach is no gospel at all but has been corrupted by aspects of Talmudic Judaism which you so keenly follow.

I forgot to say goodbye, so I came back to this post.

Goodbye.

 

[Jay Ross]

@Fullness of the Gentiles

When you stop misquoting what I post to suit your argument, then perhaps we can have a conversation.

This is the portion that I posted: - "Jay Ross, post: 1713370, member: 4077"]
However, after checking the Hebrew text in an interlinear, this is how I would suggest the verse should be paraphrases:-

9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir for My mountain;
The chosen one shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.

Your claim that this verse is referencing the Holy Land is a furphy on your part.

God's consistent promise in Deu to Ezekiel is that when He gathers Israel to Himself that He will plant them in the fertile field/soil of His faithful servant Israel.

God has been faithfully waiting for Israel to repent of their idolatrous past so that at the end of the fourth age of their existence He will be able to gather them once more to himself.
[/QUOTE]

but this is how you chose to represent what I had posted

I beg to differ.

9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
God has been faithfully waiting for Israel to repent of their idolatrous past so that at the end of the fourth age of their existence He will be able to gather them once more to himself.

If you can change my words, how can I trust you to not change the meaning of what God's words state.

Where is Israel at this present time? They are still suffering the visitation of their fathers' iniquities upon then until the end of the fourth age of their existence from the time of the birth of Isaac. The end of the fourth age of the Israelites ends when the 2,300 years of the "Fullness of the Gentiles" trampling God's sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts has with respect to time come to its completion of the prescribed 2,300 years, within the next 25 years, at which time the Kings of the earth will be gathered together at Armageddon to be judged at the same time that the Heavenly hosts will be judged in Heaven for their part in this trampling of Israel, and together they will be imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years. After the fullness of the Gentiles is complete, then "all of Israel will be saved." And these are Paul's words found in Romans 11:26. They are not my words.

At that time God will put His shepherd, Jesus, to nurture all of Israel and the "Beasts of the field" will not be able to exercise their influence over Israel until such time that God allows them a little while period of time, at the end of the seventh age, to bring about His purposes for all of the peoples of the earth.

Perhaps we will be able to start this conversation again, but until then, when you fully understand God's prophetic words, it is: -

Goodbye from Me for now.

 

[Zao is life]

When you stop misquoting what I post to suit your argument, then perhaps we can have a conversation ...
...

... However, after checking the Hebrew text in an interlinear, this is how I would suggest the verse should be paraphrases:-

9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir for My mountain;
The chosen one shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there. ...
... God has been faithfully waiting for Israel to repent of their idolatrous past so that at the end of the fourth age of their existence He will be able to gather them once more to himself ...

I don't know how many years it's going to take for you to fully understand God's prophetic Word. Clearly at the moment you are very confused about it all.

We won't be able to start this conversation again while you still have your own wool pulled over your own eyes, because you expect your many scripture quotes to all be copied into quotes of your posts, instead of only the scripture quotes and the parts of your posts that someone responding to you wants to talk about, because it's pertinent to the subject of this thread.

Paraphrasing or re-wording verses to suit your own confusion isn't helping you much at all.

Goodbye​

 

[Jay Ross]

Goodbye

Ah! Thank goodness he has agreed to stop his insults. Sadly, I once also thought like Fullness of the Gentiles does at the moment, but the scales have been removed from my eyes and I am able to see things very differently from the crowd going to who knows where, following the blind teachers claiming to know it all.

Shalom to everybody else.

PS: - God is still teaching me and expanding my understanding of His prophetic word.

 

[Zao is life]

Ah! Thank goodness he has agreed to stop his insults. Sadly, I once also thought like Fullness of the Gentiles does at the moment, but the scales have been removed from my eyes and I am able to see things very differently from the crowd going to who knows where, following the blind teachers claiming to know it all.

Shalom to everybody else.

PS: - God is still teaching me and expanding my understanding of His prophetic word.

I'm glad to hear that God is still teaching you and expanding your understanding of His prophetic word. Maybe if you would also use the expression IMO you wouldn't come across as someone who thinks he knows it all, teaching false doctrine. Thank goodness you don't think you know it all, because you inadvertently admitted in your PS: statement that you know not more than any other saint, which is not what you have been claiming before now, such as in your post to @Keraz :

I have no problems with my understanding of God's word. On the other hand, you are having a problem with what I am posting since it is very different to your private understanding which you envisage will happen in the future.

Perhaps you need to search your heart as to why your understanding is very different to God's word.

 

[Keraz]

Genesis 12:1 A righteous man called Abram was called out by God, to move into the Land, now called Israel. God promised great blessings to him.

Genesis 15:5 The Lord showed Abram the night sky, and said, “Your descendants will be as many as the stars in the sky.”

Genesis 15:18 “I give to your descendants this Land - from the Nile to the Euphrates river.”

Genesis 16:1-16 Abram and his wife Sarai were childless, so he lay with Hagar, Sarai’s servant, and she bore a son called Ishmael. The prophesy about Ishmael is: He will be like a wild ass, his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand will be against him, even his own kin.

Genesis 17:1-24 When Abram was 99, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am the Lord Almighty, live in My presence and be blameless. This is My covenant with you; I shall make you the father of many nations. I shall be your God and the God of your descendants. As a sign of this covenant, all males must be circumcised in every generation. You will have another son, to be called Isaac; he will be your heir. Ishmael, too, I will bless and a great nation will come from him.” [The Islamic peoples]

Genesis 18:17-18 The Lord said, “Your new name is Abraham and a great and powerful nation will come from you. All the other nations will wish to be blessed as they are.”

Genesis 18:19 “For I have chosen you that you may instruct your family and posterity in the ways of the Lord, by doing what is right and just, so that I will fulfil for My people all that I have promised.” Reference: Revised English Bible, some verses abridged.

Now it is every faithful Christian who is Abraham’s offspring. Galatians 3:26-29

 

[Aunty Jane]

I once also thought like Fullness of the Gentiles does at the moment, but the scales have been removed from my eyes and I am able to see things very differently from the crowd going to who knows where, following the blind teachers claiming to know it all.

Perhaps some more scales were added there Jay Ross?

In the big picture, your interpretation of scripture seems somewhat warped.

In the Jewish Tanakh, Jeremiah 31:30-32 speaks of a “new covenant, NOT like the one made with their forefathers”…

“30 Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.		להִנֵּ֛ה יָמִ֥ים בָּאִ֖ים נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֑ה וְכָֽרַתִּ֗י אֶת־בֵּ֧ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל וְאֶת־בֵּ֥ית יְהוּדָ֖ה בְּרִ֥ית חֲדָשָֽׁה:
31 Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.		לאלֹ֣א כַבְּרִ֗ית אֲשֶׁ֚ר כָּרַ֙תִּי֙ אֶת־אֲבוֹתָ֔ם בְּיוֹם֙ הֶֽחֱזִיקִ֣י בְיָדָ֔ם לְהֽוֹצִיאָ֖ם מֵאֶ֖רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם אֲשֶׁר־הֵ֜מָּה הֵפֵ֣רוּ אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֗י וְאָֽנֹכִ֛י בָּעַ֥לְתִּי בָ֖ם נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה:
32 For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.”		לבכִּ֣י זֹ֣את הַבְּרִ֡ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶכְרֹת֩ אֶת־בֵּ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל אַֽחֲרֵ֨י הַיָּמִ֚ים הָהֵם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה נָתַ֚תִּי אֶת־תּֽוֹרָתִי֙ בְּקִרְבָּ֔ם וְעַל־לִבָּ֖ם אֶכְתֳּבֶ֑נָּה וְהָיִ֚יתִי לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְהֵ֖מָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִ֥י לְעָֽם:

What did the Jews understand that this new covenant would mean for them? What was the difference?

A covenant is a legal agreement between two parties who mutually agree to its terms. If either of the parties fail to abide by the terms, the covenant is broken unless one or both parties agree to an amendment.

In Israel’s case, the terms were broken many times and God could have cast them off on account of their willful disobedience and disregard for his laws. But He had made a covenant also with Abraham, promising that a seed of his would come as Messiah and savior of his people…..so to honor that covenant, God kept his covenant with Israel because of his love for all who would be saved, not just Israel. God’s promise to Abraham was that “all nations would be blessed” by the coming of this one. So it was never just about Israel.

When God had fulfilled his promise to Abraham and produced his Messiah through the only means that would prophetically identify him, he allowed the Jewish people (the “lost sheep”, not the wicked religious leaders) to decide for themselves if they would become his disciples after God exposed their leaders for the frauds and hypocrites that they had proven to be. Then after they conspired to murder his son, he cast off that nation forever…..Jesus himself, knowing what they were scheming, sealed their fate. (Matthew 23:37-39) They would not see him again unless they ‘blessed the one who came in the name of his Father’…..a name that they no longer uttered. Jesus condemned the Pharisees to “Gehenna” ensuring they they would never see the light of day again.

Becoming a Christian was not mandatory…it was a choice. Those who chose to follow Jesus did so not because of fear of punishment, but because no matter what opposition they received, (John 15:18-21) they would of their own free will remain loyal and faithful…..something Israel never did.

So what is the big picture that most who identify as “Christians“ fail to understand about natural Israel…?

1) The reason why God chose the descendants of Abraham, (through Isaac and Jacob) to be his people in the first place, was not because they were better than any other people, (their conduct was a often appalling) but because he was going to make a written record of his relationship with them to show those of us in the future, who would benefit from both their good and bad examples. These were the only people up to that point who were bound by God’s laws from birth. When Messiah came, they had their opportunity to gain a place in the promised Kingdom, but only a remnant of natural Israel responded.

God revealed himself and his expectations of human beings through the laws that he gave Israel…..a perfect law given to an imperfect people, reminding them daily of their need for a savior….who was to come.…but true to form, they continued to be the “stiff necked” and rebellious people they had proven to be all through their history. Bad leadership always led them astray.

2) What of the place of natural Israel in today’s world? I see many who still believe that God will somehow bring Israel back to him….he never had any intention to do that, nor would any geographical location on earth again be the center of his worship. As he told the Samaritan woman….

John 4:19-22…after telling the woman what he knew about her life….
”The woman said to him: “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews.”

So, salvation would begin with the Jews, but it would not remain with them, as Jesus would go on to relate in Matthew 23:37-39. It was never God’s purpose to select any part of the earth to become holy to him….he did so with Israel to illustrate what would take place globally in the fulfillment of his grand purpose for this earth…..Christians have no “holy land” because it was God’s original purpose to have the whole earth filled with his righteous people, serving his interests on this carefully and lovingly prepared planet. The whole earth will be his “holy land”.

When natural Israel failed to produce the “fruits” that he required, he cut them off as dead branches of an unproductive tree, and grafted in new branches that would produce the desired fruitage.

Christianity is not about nationality or a piece of dirt over which to squabble…..it is about God’s purpose for the earth itself, and the people he wants to live on it, and to take care of it, tried and tested as to fitness for the job. He chose a number of humans to join his son in heaven, to bring all things back into complete harmony with his first purpose….to have the earth “filled” with those who want to do God’s will rather than their own.

Losing sight of the big picture has people arguing over stuff that is irrelevant as far as God’s first purpose is concerned…..that first purpose never went away. (Isaiah 55:11) All will end with a return to the beginning.
With the ‘coming of God’s Kingdom’, God’s will can then ‘be done on earth as it is in heaven’….this is what Jesus taught us to pray for.

 

[Jay Ross]

Perhaps some more scales were added there Jay Ross?

In the big picture, your interpretation of scripture seems somewhat warped.

Oh, Aunty Jane, it seems that you have not meditated on what I have posted. If my understanding is warped, then heaven help those whose understanding is warped far more than mine.

God Promises to Israel is found in Ezekiel 34:11-16 and after careful examination of the Hebrew Text my understanding of how it should be translated is as follows: -

11 'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver/rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and will bring them into their own fertile field; I will feed them on the mountain of Israel, {a metaphor for Israel’s religious basis}, {where they are living} in the {river} valleys and in all the inhabited places of the earth. 14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountain of Israel, {i.e. the religious basis of Israel}. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountain of Israel {i.e. the religious basis of Israel}. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. 16 "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment."

My Paraphrasing of this passage paints a very different picture of what God intends to do when He begins to gather Israel to Himself once more.

Keraz's understanding is that Israel must return to the Land of Canaan which God had taken away from them in 70 A.D. because of his fixation on the "Promised Land" being a forever promise when in reality was for a finite length of time where the vanishing point, i.e., the end point of the time period, was beyond their ability to comprehend.

Fullness of the Gentiles also has not understood that the Jer 31:31ff covenant renewal is the initial Covenant that Israel had agreed to before Moses went up onto the mountain to speak with God face to face. He attempted to state that I was referring to the Mosaic Covenant which contained much of the Law requirement for the Israelites to follow after they had rebelled against the Kingdom of Priests, A holy Nation and God's Possession among the Nation Covenant. The Jer 31;31ff renewal of this covenant is what God is presenting in this prophetic passage, but with one or two minor tweaks. Fulness of the Gentiles' focus is on a brand-new covenant which is not what Christ came to establish. Christ came to renew the Salvation covenant by tweaking the process by which the Salvation Covenant would bring about the redemption of the nations of the earth.

If my understanding of God's promises and purposes for this present time is warped, then your arguments presented have not proved that they are wrapped at all.

It would seem that you have presented replacement theology as justification for what you have posted.

I for one would reject the Replacement Theology as being flawed.

I have spent much time pondering upon the scriptures and hold to a very different understanding from the "traditional" "theories" about what God has prophesied will happen during the End Times.

Now if you can present a better understanding from what I have presented, then I will listen to you argument and then decide if I will accept it or not.

Goodbye

 

[Keraz]

Keraz's understanding is that Israel must return to the Land of Canaan which God had taken away from them in 70 A.D.

Typical, you do what you accuse others of doing. Mis-reading others posts.

I have not said Israel; that is the Jews are the inheritors of the holy Land. They temporarily hold a small part of it.

It is the destiny of the Christian peoples to be the people who will display God's glory and be the Light to the nations, as we live in peace and prosperity in all of the area given to Abraham and his Spiritual descendants, who are followers of Abrahams one true descendant. Jesus.
Psalms 69:32-36, Isaiah 65:9

 

[Jay Ross]

Typical, you do what you accuse others of doing. Mis-reading others posts.

I have not said Israel; that is the Jews are the inheritors of the holy Land. They temporarily hold a small part of it.

It is the destiny of the Christian peoples to be the people who will display God's glory and be the Light to the nations, as we live in peace and prosperity in all of the area given to Abraham and his Spiritual descendants, who are followers of Abrahams one true descendant. Jesus.
Psalms 69:32-36, Isaiah 65:9

Keraz, if Christians are to be grafted into Israel, then are the Christians not also of Israel, being descendants of Abraham?

You too are preaching Replacement Theology, which is contrary to God's prophetic words.

Because of your lack of understanding, what you are teaching, is not what God has prophetically stated will happen during the End Times.

Goodbye

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, if Christians are to be grafted into Israel, then are the Christians not also of Israel, being descendants of Abraham?

Yes, they are all Abrahams descendants by faith. Galatians 3:26-29
Jesus and the Apostles make it clear; ethnicity has nothing to do with who are the Israelites of God, ever since He came and offered Salvation to any who would accept it.

 

[Zao is life]

Perhaps some more scales were added there Jay Ross?

In the big picture, your interpretation of scripture seems somewhat warped.

In the Jewish Tanakh, Jeremiah 31:30-32 speaks of a “new covenant, NOT like the one made with their forefathers”…

“30Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.		להִנֵּ֛ה יָמִ֥ים בָּאִ֖ים נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֑ה וְכָֽרַתִּ֗י אֶת־בֵּ֧ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל וְאֶת־בֵּ֥ית יְהוּדָ֖ה בְּרִ֥ית חֲדָשָֽׁה:
31 Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.		לאלֹ֣א כַבְּרִ֗ית אֲשֶׁ֚ר כָּרַ֙תִּי֙ אֶת־אֲבוֹתָ֔ם בְּיוֹם֙ הֶֽחֱזִיקִ֣י בְיָדָ֔ם לְהֽוֹצִיאָ֖ם מֵאֶ֖רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם אֲשֶׁר־הֵ֜מָּה הֵפֵ֣רוּ אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֗י וְאָֽנֹכִ֛י בָּעַ֥לְתִּי בָ֖ם נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה:
32 For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.”		לבכִּ֣י זֹ֣את הַבְּרִ֡ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶכְרֹת֩ אֶת־בֵּ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל אַֽחֲרֵ֨י הַיָּמִ֚ים הָהֵם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה נָתַ֚תִּי אֶת־תּֽוֹרָתִי֙ בְּקִרְבָּ֔ם וְעַל־לִבָּ֖ם אֶכְתֳּבֶ֑נָּה וְהָיִ֚יתִי לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְהֵ֖מָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִ֥י לְעָֽם:

What did the Jews understand that this new covenant would mean for them? What was the difference?

A covenant is a legal agreement between two parties who mutually agree to its terms. If either of the parties fail to abide by the terms, the covenant is broken unless one or both parties agree to an amendment.

In Israel’s case, the terms were broken many times and God could have cast them off on account of their willful disobedience and disregard for his laws. But He had made a covenant also with Abraham, promising that a seed of his would come as Messiah and savior of his people…..so to honor that covenant, God kept his covenant with Israel because of his love for all who would be saved, not just Israel. God’s promise to Abraham was that “all nations would be blessed” by the coming of this one. So it was never just about Israel.

When God had fulfilled his promise to Abraham and produced his Messiah through the only means that would prophetically identify him, he allowed the Jewish people (the “lost sheep”, not the wicked religious leaders) to decide for themselves if they would become his disciples after God exposed their leaders for the frauds and hypocrites that they had proven to be. Then after they conspired to murder his son, he cast off that nation forever…..Jesus himself, knowing what they were scheming, sealed their fate. (Matthew 23:37-39) They would not see him again unless they ‘blessed the one who came in the name of his Father’…..a name that they no longer uttered. Jesus condemned the Pharisees to “Gehenna” ensuring they they would never see the light of day again.

Becoming a Christian was not mandatory…it was a choice. Those who chose to follow Jesus did so not because of fear of punishment, but because no matter what opposition they received, (John 15:18-21) they would of their own free will remain loyal and faithful…..something Israel never did.

So what is the big picture that most who identify as “Christians“ fail to understand about natural Israel…?

1) The reason why God chose the descendants of Abraham, (through Isaac and Jacob) to be his people in the first place, was not because they were better than any other people, (their conduct was a often appalling) but because he was going to make a written record of his relationship with them to show those of us in the future, who would benefit from both their good and bad examples. These were the only people up to that point who were bound by God’s laws from birth. When Messiah came, they had their opportunity to gain a place in the promised Kingdom, but only a remnant of natural Israel responded.

God revealed himself and his expectations of human beings through the laws that he gave Israel…..a perfect law given to an imperfect people, reminding them daily of their need for a savior….who was to come.…but true to form, they continued to be the “stiff necked” and rebellious people they had proven to be all through their history. Bad leadership always led them astray.

2) What of the place of natural Israel in today’s world? I see many who still believe that God will somehow bring Israel back to him….he never had any intention to do that, nor would any geographical location on earth again be the center of his worship. As he told the Samaritan woman….

John 4:19-22…after telling the woman what he knew about her life….
”The woman said to him: “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews.”

So, salvation would begin with the Jews, but it would not remain with them, as Jesus would go on to relate in Matthew 23:37-39. It was never God’s purpose to select any part of the earth to become holy to him….he did so with Israel to illustrate what would take place globally in the fulfillment of his grand purpose for this earth…..Christians have no “holy land” because it was God’s original purpose to have the whole earth filled with his righteous people, serving his interests on this carefully and lovingly prepared planet. The whole earth will be his “holy land”.

When natural Israel failed to produce the “fruits” that he required, he cut them off as dead branches of an unproductive tree, and grafted in new branches that would produce the desired fruitage.

Christianity is not about nationality or a piece of dirt over which to squabble…..it is about God’s purpose for the earth itself, and the people he wants to live on it, and to take care of it, tried and tested as to fitness for the job. He chose a number of humans to join his son in heaven, to bring all things back into complete harmony with his first purpose….to have the earth “filled” with those who want to do God’s will rather than their own.

Losing sight of the big picture has people arguing over stuff that is irrelevant as far as God’s first purpose is concerned…..that first purpose never went away. (Isaiah 55:11) All will end with a return to the beginning.
With the ‘coming of God’s Kingdom’, God’s will can then ‘be done on earth as it is in heaven’….this is what Jesus taught us to pray for.

"What I post is my own opinion only" says your signature.

What you posted above is the Word of God - uncorrupted, unchanged.

PS: When God called Abraham His very first promise to Abraham was to make Abraham the father of a multitude of goyim (Gentile nations), and through Abraham's seed to bless all the nations of the earth. God repeated that promise three times, using the word goyim three times. And Abraham believed God, and his faith was credited to him for righteousness.

The promised seed of Abraham is the Son of God, not of a man. He has no human father. He is called the Son of man because He is the representative of mankind, who represents us before God, and who represents God to man.

IMO there's something "in" these "Christian" people's exaltation of even the unbelieving seed of the one tribe of twelve through whom the promised seed came into the world. IMO it's betraying something about their faith - like they claim to have faith in God and in His Word but they do not - just like the people whom they exalt.​

 

[Keraz]

It makes me feel a bit sick, when I see how many Christians exult, support and pray for; the Jewish State of Israel. It's a shocking demonstration of their failure to understand, or even read; the scriptures which say how God will Judge and punish Judah for their apostasy and continued rejection of Jesus.

It all stems from the false 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, that must have an Israel undergoing tribulation, while they sit up in heaven.
A Jewish redemption [or a rapture to heaven] is never stated in the Bible. Only a Christian remnant will survive to join their brethren in the end times. On earth.

The promised seed of Abraham is the Son of God, not of man.

Galatians 3:16 is clear: ...the seed of Abraham is singular and just refers to Christ.
We Christians are followers of that Seed, by faith. Galatians 3:26 So if you belong to Christ, then you are children of Abraham and heirs by virtue of Gods Promises.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If my understanding of God's promises and purposes for this present time is warped, then your arguments presented have not proved that they are wrapped at all.

Natural Israel served God’s purpose, and they also served as an example of what happened when his covenanted people obeyed him, compared to when they didn’t…..both examples benefit us. But Jehovah has no attachment to Israel, any more than Jesus was attached to the Pharisees, who were also “children of Abraham”…..he condemned them to ”Gehenna”.

What did John the Baptist say about those religious frauds…?
Matt 3:
”When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Being a son of Abraham cuts no mustard with Jehovah unless they are obedient in their service to God.
Read Romans 2:17-29, where Paul concludes by saying…
”For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

Freed from the “written code” which was a curse because no one could keep it, Christians now became “Jews” in a spiritual way, no longer in a physical sense, because of their continued disobedience and finally their rejecting of God’s Messiah. All Jews who accepted Jesus had to abandon the religious sham that Judaism had become. (Matt 15:7-9) They ceased going to the synagogues and met together in other places, including private homes.
”The Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) that Paul spoke about, was made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians.

It would seem that you have presented replacement theology as justification for what you have posted.

I for one would reject the Replacement Theology as being flawed.

It is not flawed when you take all scripture into account…it is scriptural fact (Matt 21:42-46) …..God chose a new “Israel”….a collection of people, eventually from all over the world, (Acts 10:34-35) who would do what natural Israel failed to do….separate from the world, (James 4:4) and keep Jehovah’s laws which were now inscribed on hearts instead of on parchment.

Creating a new “Israel” kept his covenant with Abraham by adoption. His obedient adopted sons are the ones he favored over the disobedient natural sons.

Once his covenant with natural Israel was fulfilled in the coming of their Messiah, Jehovah had no further use for this people. whom he at times wanted to exterminate! (Exodus 32:9-10; Matthew 23:37-39)

I have spent much time pondering upon the scriptures and hold to a very different understanding from the "traditional" "theories" about what God has prophesied will happen during the End Times.

Now if you can present a better understanding from what I have presented, then I will listen to you argument and then decide if I will accept it or not.

Looking at natural Israel today, all I see is another blood-spilling political nation, alienated from the God they claim to worship. They have never known peace even in the land they consider ”holy”…..it is filled with bloodshed, political upheaval, religious division, and alliance with nations whose worship they despise……Israel knows war, not peace. (Isaiah 1:15)

When Jesus said ….in Matt 23:37-39….
”Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

In the ensuing 2,000 years since the execution of God’s son, have Israel as a nation, ever acknowledged the one who came in Jehovah’s name? (Psalm 118:26) To this day they are as stubborn and unteachable as they always were…..individuals from that nation have come to Christ, and been welcomed by him, but the nation itself stands condemned. They will never acknowledge Christ Jesus as the Messiah…..they wait in vain for the real Messsiah to make an appearance.

God is done with them.

 

[Jay Ross]

Natural Israel served God’s purpose, and they also served as an example of what happened when his covenanted people obeyed him, compared to when they didn’t…..both examples benefit us. But Jehovah has no attachment to Israel, any more than Jesus was attached to the Pharisees, who were also “children of Abraham”…..he condemned them to ”Gehenna”.

What did John the Baptist say about those religious frauds…?
Matt 3:
”When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Being a son of Abraham cuts no mustard with Jehovah unless they are obedient in their service to God.
Read Romans 2:17-29, where Paul concludes by saying…
”For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

Freed from the “written code” which was a curse because no one could keep it, Christians now became “Jews” in a spiritual way, no longer in a physical sense, because of their continued disobedience and finally their rejecting of God’s Messiah. All Jews who accepted Jesus had to abandon the religious sham that Judaism had become. (Matt 15:7-9) They ceased going to the synagogues and met together in other places, including private homes.
”The Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) that Paul spoke about, was made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians.

It is not flawed when you take all scripture into account…it is scriptural fact (Matt 21:42-46) …..God chose a new “Israel”….a collection of people, eventually from all over the world, (Acts 10:34-35) who would do what natural Israel failed to do….separate from the world, (James 4:4) and keep Jehovah’s laws which were now inscribed on hearts instead of on parchment.

Creating a new “Israel” kept his covenant with Abraham by adoption. His obedient adopted sons are the ones he favored over the disobedient natural sons.

Once his covenant with natural Israel was fulfilled in the coming of their Messiah, Jehovah had no further use for this people. whom he at times wanted to exterminate! (Exodus 32:9-10; Matthew 23:37-39)

Looking at natural Israel today, all I see is another blood-spilling political nation, alienated from the God they claim to worship. They have never known peace even in the land they consider ”holy”…..it is filled with bloodshed, political upheaval, religious division, and alliance with nations whose worship they despise……Israel knows war, not peace. (Isaiah 1:15)

When Jesus said ….in Matt 23:37-39….
”Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

In the ensuing 2,000 years since the execution of God’s son, have Israel as a nation, ever acknowledged the one who came in Jehovah’s name? (Psalm 118:26) To this day they are as stubborn and unteachable as they always were…..individuals from that nation have come to Christ, and been welcomed by him, but the nation itself stands condemned. They will never acknowledge Christ Jesus as the Messiah…..they wait in vain for the real Messsiah to make an appearance.

God is done with them.

You have again presented your replacement theology. I for one will have no part in agreeing with your point of view or your cult's POV.

Goodbye.