Prophets and Watchmen

[Angelina]

Just off the top of my head...prophets in the O/T always pointed toward the coming Messiah and the ushering in of a new covenant. Some O/T prophets were given revelation of last day events. Watchmen watch on the wall for signs of his return. There are many watchmen around the world today but not many E/T prophets.

The gift of prophecy is not the same as the ministry/office of a prophet. There are some Churches who have prophets as part of their oversight...but they do not have the same function as end-time prophets. Their position is specific to the Church they are involved in.

The bible tells us that 2 will arise in the last days and will be killed then will go into Heaven. These two are definitely prophets and they will be killed because they will be heralding the truth of God which the world will utterly despise....

 

[Dodo_David]

So, how is one to know that another has the gift of prophecy? Are we not to test alleged prophecies?

 

[Angelina]

The gift of prophecy usually functions within a Church body subject to the leadership and sometimes in outreach situations. It tends to relate to personal prophecy... or a call to repentance within the sphere of authority functioning in the Church....but not global.

 

[HammerStone]

An important point, Angelina.

Cessationists tend to overrun this argument by saying that so-called modern prophets are asserting that they are on par (equal to) the prophets of the Old and New Testaments. When the Bible speaks to gifts, such as 1 Corinthians 12:10, it clearly is speaking to prophecy that is not 100% equal to what is in the Bible. Meaning, that while it is ultimately from God, it doesn't get written down on the same level as the inspired word of God.

I realize this could be a bit hazy, so please allow me to illustrate. If God provides me with a prophetic dream, he will speak in terms that I understand. As such, I am here to speak this prophecy by sharing it, but it doesn't become the book of HammerStone to be appended to the Bible right after Revelation.

However, the prophecy is still a gift (an active gift) and something that is a revelation from God. It's just not the Bible, though it will most certainly correspond with the already written word of God known as the Bible.

The rub comes when someone gets an opinion and plays the "God told me" card. I've seen more and more perfectly good and sincere people insist that God revealed something to them and that it's on par with Holy Scripture in inspiration. This troubles me greatly.

 

[Dodo_David]

I agree that God can continue to give any spiritual gift that He wants to whomever He wants, including the gift of prophecy.

I have hear/read plenty of stories in which Christians received prophetic messages that came true. Those messages were narrow messages pertaining to specific parties, and the messages did not contradict Scripture in either content or method of delivery.

Yet, the gift of prophecy can be counterfeited.

 

[lforrest]

I wounder how many false prophets that think they are legit have had some sort of affiliation with the occult. That they are subtly influenced by spirits other than the Lord's and have no idea.

I also wounder if the opinions of a legitimate prophet can affect their prophesy.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I agree that God can continue to give any spiritual gift that He wants to whomever He wants, including the gift of prophecy.

I have hear/read plenty of stories in which Christians received prophetic messages that came true. Those messages were narrow messages pertaining to specific parties, and the messages did not contradict Scripture in either content or method of delivery.

Yet, the gift of prophecy can be counterfeited.

Same here .... I know of irrefutable situations where individuals have known or done things in advance that fall squarely into a prophetic context.

Yet they tend to be the last people who would ever label themselves as having the gift of prophecy

Then we have thousands of people who label themselves as prophets but never actually are

 

[Angelina]

Yet, the gift of prophecy can be counterfeited.

True but not within the context of a Church. The gift of prophecy "and" the office of a prophet tend to function within the Church environment where there is accountability.. This differs from someone who considers themselves in the office of a prophet but functioning outside the "Body of Christ." ...they need to be tested re; prophecy because they are not subject to the body nor are they in a position of accountability. All born-again believer's have the ability to prophecy through the Holy Spirit but not all believer's have the office of a prophet.

Since this is a forum environment, it is wise to test those who consider themselves in the office of a prophet because they are not known to us personally as one would if they were a member of a Church.

Please note: The Office of a prophet and the gift of prophecy are not the same thing... :huh:

 

[Apocalypticist]

There are absolutely prophets today.

Jesus said, Behold, I send unto you prophets... referring to the time after His crucifixion. And in fact he did that. Some of the prophets in the latter NT era included the Apostle John, Agabus, and the three daughters of Philip.

Joel claimed that in the last days, the young people would prophesy, "Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..." These are the young people. It should not be astonishing at all that what you see on a board like this is the older crowd shunning the idea of modern prophets while the young rally behind it. You really cannot teach an old dog new tricks.

Some of the prophets who will return will "prophesy in Jerusalem for one thousand, two hundred and three score days..." (the two witnesses)

Paul additionally taught that where tongues would cease, prophecy would endure, until the perfect comes. If you study this saying, you'll see the perfect has not come yet.

Overall, these are just a few verses which point to the fact that there are indeed prophets, if not today, then prophets will be here to usher in the end of the age.

I understand though this is a difficult issue for some to make sense of so if anyone has any questions about the prophetic office I will be glad to offer my expertise. I can't guarantee you will be satisfied with my responses but the offer is extended in any case.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

My personal observation is that there are not a lot of deliberate counterfeit "prophets" in the church.

It mostly comes down to people who (for some reason) have deluded themselves into thinking they are prophets.

And they actually believe it themselves and are happy to proclaim it.

But nothing they ever do confirms it.

 

[Apocalypticist]

You're right Arnie. That's a major problem. People might feel like God means to use them that way, but when they cross the line to actively proclaiming what they are and they don't keep a measure of humility then bad things always result. The problem isn't calling yourself a prophet, it's just not in living up to the office and people who claim it for themselves selfishly. But if you are called to that, people should be able to notice that you're not abusing your privilege selfishly and those people are only a small minority and clearly stand out next to the others.

 

[Purity]

Just off the top of my head...prophets in the O/T always pointed toward the coming Messiah and the ushering in of a new covenant. Some O/T prophets were given revelation of last day events. Watchmen watch on the wall for signs of his return. There are many watchmen around the world today but not many E/T prophets.

The gift of prophecy is not the same as the ministry/office of a prophet. There are some Churches who have prophets as part of their oversight...but they do not have the same function as end-time prophets. Their position is specific to the Church they are involved in.

The bible tells us that 2 will arise in the last days and will be killed then will go into Heaven. These two are definitely prophets and they will be killed because they will be heralding the truth of God which the world will utterly despise....

[SIZE=11pt]Hello Angelina[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]I personally believe we are in a silent age where God has constrained Himself from speaking directly to men and women. Paul touches on this in his exposition of the gifts in 1 Corinthians 13. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]We find that which is true of prophecies is also true of the other gifts of the Spirit which were present in the Church during those formative years:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Whether there be tongues, they shall ceased whether there be knowledge [special knowledge of unrevealed truth], it shall vanish away (1 Corinthians 13:8).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Tongues, therefore, shall cease. The word “cease” in the original is pauo and means literally “to come to a complete stop.” Could anything be clearer in the Word of God. And so we can translate the verse without doing violence to the text:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Love never drops away, but whether there be prophecies, they shall be rendered unnecessary, whether there be tongues, they shall come to a complete stop; whether there be the spiritual gift of knowledge, it shall vanish away (1 Corinthians 13:8, free translation).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]The next verses which follow explain all of this and prove it to be the proper explanation:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]For we know in part [incompletely], and we prophesy in part [while the Word was still incomplete]. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part [or incomplete] shall be done away (1 Corinthians 13:9, 10).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]When that which is perfect is come, the completed Scriptures, then that which is in part or incomplete shall be done away. When the Scripture is completed with the writing of the last book of the Bible, then that which was in part shall cease to have its place in the life of the believer. It is the end of special signs, given during the infancy of the Church. The imperfect must give way to the perfect.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Today we hold the complete Word of God whereby all the required wisdom which is able to lead a believer to salvation and is accessible within the Holy Scripture. Jesus’ last prophetic message contained all his blessings to those who read and understood its content. “[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy aloud, and blessed are those who hear and obey the things written in it, because the time is near!” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]If this is true, and I don’t expect you to agree, it means all self-declared prophets are anti-christ in their self appointed positions. They have not heeded the Masters command in that many have added to the words of this prophecy. The entire prophecy is hedge about with this command and warning. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](Look! I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy expressed in this book) AND I testify to the one who hears the words of the prophecy contained in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Knowing all the spiritual gifts will cease and the Word of God alone will remain is sobering to say the least in a time where many have seen a vision or in possession of a gift be it a tongue or of healing etc. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]In saying this I do believe a time will come when the period of the latter rains will usher in the second coming of the Lord - that time will be during his appearing when he is in the midst of his ecclesia. [/SIZE]

 

[Dodo_David]

In 1 Corinthians 13, the Apostle Paul doesn't say when prophecies will cease.

 

[Purity]

Only that they will cease. Its commonly understood the gifts were for the initial establishment of the ecclesia's throughout Asia Minor.

Purity

 

[Angelina]

Hello Angelina
I personally believe we are in a silent age where God has constrained Himself from speaking directly to men and women. Paul touches on this in his exposition of the gifts in 1 Corinthians 13.

We find that which is true of prophecies is also true of the other gifts of the Spirit which were present in the Church during those formative years:

Whether there be tongues, they shall ceased whether there be knowledge [special knowledge of unrevealed truth], it shall vanish away (1 Corinthians 13:8).

Tongues, therefore, shall cease. The word “cease” in the original is pauo and means literally “to come to a complete stop.” Could anything be clearer in the Word of God. And so we can translate the verse without doing violence to the text:

Love never drops away, but whether there be prophecies, they shall be rendered unnecessary, whether there be tongues, they shall come to a complete stop; whether there be the spiritual gift of knowledge, it shall vanish away (1 Corinthians 13:8, free translation).

The next verses which follow explain all of this and prove it to be the proper explanation:

For we know in part [incompletely], and we prophesy in part [while the Word was still incomplete]. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part [or incomplete] shall be done away (1 Corinthians 13:9, 10).

When that which is perfect is come, the completed Scriptures, then that which is in part or incomplete shall be done away. When the Scripture is completed with the writing of the last book of the Bible, then that which was in part shall cease to have its place in the life of the believer. It is the end of special signs, given during the infancy of the Church. The imperfect must give way to the perfect.

I do not agree that the gifts of the Spirit are no-longer functioning in the Church today. As long as we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, these gifts can be made manifest in us at any given time according to the will of God.

In reference to 1 Corinthians 13:8-10...the question is...when will the above gifts cease? I do not believe that Paul was referring to the "scriptures" when stating; "that which is perfect is come" but rather, "love" which is Christ." Is love perfected in us yet? :huh:

Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Apocalypticist]

In 1 Corinthians 13, the Apostle Paul doesn't say when prophecies will cease.

Are you sure about that?

[footnote 20]

"The passage does not say when tongues will cease. Some commentators believe verse 10 sets the tiaring: "When the perfect comes, the partial will be done away." Many suggestions have been made as to the meaning of "the perfect." Some believe it is the complete New Testament; thus they conclude this passage is saying that tongues would cease when the canon was closed. Various others say the perfect thing is the maturing of the church, the rapture, or the second coming. But it seems that the perfect thing Paul has in mind must be the eternal state- "face to face" in verse 12 can best be explained as being with God in the new heavens and new earth. It is only in glory that we will know as we are known (v. 12).

"The language of the passage puts tongues in a category apart from prophecy and knowledge. Verse 8 says prophecy and knowledge will be "done away" (Gk. katargeo), but tongues "will cease" (pauo, "stop"). Katargeo appears as a passive verb, meaning that the subject of the sentence receives the action: prophecy and knowledge will be "done away" by "the perfect." Pauo, however, appears in the Greek middle voice, which here seems to signify a reflexive action: The gift of tongues will "stop itself." When is not stipulated, but they won't be around when the perfect thing arrives. History suggests that tongues ceased shortly after Paul wrote this epistle, as we shall see in the following pages..."

pgs 230-31, Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, Jr.

To not get to concerned with the Greek however, one immediately should notice that while tongues are said to cease, prophecy is said that it will be done away with. The implication is that tongues cease prior to prophecy and that prophecy ceases when the perfect comes. It seems fairly straightforward, depending on which translation you're using.

 

[Angelina]

The reality is this...if I went to a Church and prophesied as a stranger to that Church. The minister and leaders have a right to stop me or throw me out. The Church leaders have a responsibility toward the sheep. The office of a prophet functioning in a Church environment is not something that you come by through chance or inheritance but proven reliability. The prophet must prove his calling through consistent accuracy of prophetic utterances. Some prophecies are for future events but most are related to the here and now pertaining to the specific Church. The Church leadership are able to test these things out as would they be able to test out any other office.
Ephesians 4:11, 12, 13, 14, 15

The forum environment differs as we are made up of a diversity of denominations. The leadership of this forum have a certain degree of responsibility toward members here and they will certainly not allow strangers to this forum prophesying things that will steer believers off track....so be warned!

 

[Dodo_David]

To not get to concerned with the Greek however, one immediately should notice that while tongues are said to cease, prophecy is said that it will be done away with. The implication is that tongues cease prior to prophecy and that prophecy ceases when the perfect comes. It seems fairly straightforward, depending on which translation you're using.

I see no biblical justification for saying that people no longer pray to God in tongues.
I see no biblical justification for saying that prophesying no longer takes place.

Granted, both gifts can be counterfeited, which is why we are to test all things.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 14, the Apostle Paul describes speaking in tongues as praying to God.
Thus, a genuine interpretation of tongues will be a prayer to God.

If a prayer to God in tongues is interpreted as an alleged message from God, then I know that at least the interpretation is counterfeit,
because speaking in tongues + interpretation of tongues ≠ prophecy.

As for genuine prophesying (which has nothing to do with tongues), it will be 100% true.

False prophesying will contain error, and it may also be delivered in a way that contradicts Scripture.

 

[Quantrill]

I also adhere to the gifts of the Holy Spirit as stated in the Bible.

When involved in the local church, such prophecying will of course be directed toward that Church. If it ever contridicts Scripture, then it is to be rejected. The same on the forum level. If ever ones doctrine contridicts Scripture, it is to be rejected.

It does not mean necessarily that one is a false prophet, as Nathan made a mistake also in telling David that the Lord was with him in building Him a house.

Quantrill

 

[Apocalypticist]

The reality is this...if I went to a Church and prophesied as a stranger to that Church. The minister and leaders have a right to stop me or throw me out. The Church leaders have a responsibility toward the sheep. The office of a prophet functioning in a Church environment is not something that you come by through chance or inheritance but proven reliability. The prophet must prove his calling through consistent accuracy of prophetic utterances. Some prophecies are for future events but most are related to the here and now pertaining to the specific Church. The Church leadership are able to test these things out as would they be able to test out any other office.
Ephesians 4:11, 12, 13, 14, 15

The forum environment differs as we are made up of a diversity of denominations. The leadership of this forum have a certain degree of responsibility toward members here and they will certainly not allow strangers to this forum prophesying things that will steer believers off track....so be warned!

I am troubled by it because I know tongues give me the creeps. Sometimes, maybe less than 5% I hear them and I feel a peace about it and that is what's troubling. I take it that it's highly counterfeited just like the more visible gift of prophecy, more visible because it's something that we know we see a lot of fakes try to do. Tongues aren't as clear because spotting fake tongues is totally subjective.

As to silencing a "prophet" I would offer two points: They should not be silenced unless they are doing something excessively provocative like if it's a profanity or something very threatening then of course they should be silenced (and removed). If it doesn't step to that level then they should be allowed to continue. At that point, if what was said was false, then it is for a true prophet to stand up then and denounce what was just said (with care) and then the service to move on. If the pastor feels the need to add an addendum or some point then he should. But I don't believe it's right to silence tongues or prophecies because I fear the Lord.

But with prophecy, it's for me, having attended numerous churches, dozens over the years, thousands of services attended, I've heard if I'm not mistaken a prophetic word given only ONCE. As for me, I have given a prophetic word in a church ONCE, and it was this year. Unfortunately, I'm not real gung ho about public speaking, but that is a character flaw I'm simply going to have to come to terms with.

I see no biblical justification for saying that people no longer pray to God in tongues.
I see no biblical justification for saying that prophesying no longer takes place.

Granted, both gifts can be counterfeited, which is why we are to test all things.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 14, the Apostle Paul describes speaking in tongues as praying to God.
Thus, a genuine interpretation of tongues will be a prayer to God.

If a prayer to God in tongues is interpreted as an alleged message from God, then I know that at least the interpretation is counterfeit,
because speaking in tongues + interpretation of tongues ≠ prophecy.

As for genuine prophesying (which has nothing to do with tongues), it will be 100% true.

False prophesying will contain error, and it may also be delivered in a way that contradicts Scripture.

False prophets are followed dearly because their followers have not been trained in the prophetic. But because they sincerely desire to know it, but are without the proper tools, they fall in much more often with the charismatic, enticing liars who hide behind 'prophecy'. I have seen too many young people, and I am only 25, fall under the auspices of a controlling leader or just simply false doctrine and have literally been cast 'to and fro' by 'every wind of doctrine'. It's tragic every time.