Protestants trying to figure it all out

[rockytopva]

Even though I am one, I get tired of Protestants trying to figure it all out... Especially....

1. Putting a date on Christ's return - Thus we have the pre-, mid-, and post-trib bunch
2. Salvation - Thus we have the Calvinist and Armenian folk
3. Doctrine - Making long and endless doctrine

And then... Once they get it all figured out... They become arrogant and unapproachable. Even in my Pentecostal Holiness church, once they feel like they have arrived all humility goes out the window and their spirits can become unbearable. They will even get upset with you if you try to mess with their mental web, in which as they were decades in sewing, feel justified in.

I have a book ministry at work where I share Christian material with my co-workers. One guy wanted to get saved but not in my Pentecostal church. So I looked up a church of his liking and we ended up going to a Baptist church. Well, they were sharing a Franklin Graham film in which he tearfully goes up to the altar to get saved. Only... There was no altar up front. So they take him to a room where they proceed to dump all that John Calvin stuff in his head. I am thinking to myself, the guy is in tears just say a salvation prayer with him for the crying out loud.

In the Nicene Creed it mentions,

"He (Christ) will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end."

Not trying to stick any kind of date on anything but treating it as a future event. Even though I believe in a pre-trib rapture I also realize that the date of Christ's return and any event where he meets us in the clouds is not possible for us to know. It is better to believe that Christ can return today, or fifty years from now. Even so come Lord Jesus.

And salvation is meant to something very easy...

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. - Acts 16

Ridiculously easy!

 

[TopherNelson]

It is ridiculously easy, if done with love. It is ridiculously hard... when done with pride.

 

[rockytopva]

The bible says in Deuteronomy...

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. - Deuteronomy 18:22

I looked that word presumptuously up in the Hebrew and Greek dictionary as using a root word 'zuwd' which means....

To boil, boil up, seethe, act proudly, act presumptuously, act rebelliously, be presumptuous, be arrogant, be rebelliously proud
(Qal)
to act presumptuously
to deal arrogantly (with 'al')
to defy proudly (with 'el')

(Hiphil)
to boil, seethe, act proudly
to act presumptuously, act insolently

I am a Lab Technician at a large factory. Of all the years I have worked with the chemist I only had one opportunity to witness to the guy. He was at the microscope analyzing adhesion and it was just me and him in the lab. So I made my little four minute presentation and he just kept looking at his sample and did not return any reply so I returned to my work.

And then, while I was entering in data he speaks! He says... "Do you know what I think it is?" <long pause> "I think it is arrogance!" While still looking through the microscope and not acknowledging my presence.

If I had a word for this generation it is that the unction of the Spirit of God is not arrogance! To do arrogantly is to do presumptuously... And it brings a lot of harm to Christianity.

 

[Phoneman777]

Even though I am one, I get tired of Protestants trying to figure it all out... Especially....

1. Putting a date on Christ's return - Thus we have the pre-, mid-, and post-trib bunch
2. Salvation - Thus we have the Calvinist and Armenian folk
3. Doctrine - Making long and endless doctrine

And then... Once they get it all figured out... They become arrogant and unapproachable. Even in my Pentecostal Holiness church, once they feel like they have arrived all humility goes out the window and their spirits can become unbearable. They will even get upset with you if you try to mess with their mental web, in which as they were decades in sewing, feel justified in.

I have a book ministry at work where I share Christian material with my co-workers. One guy wanted to get saved but not in my Pentecostal church. So I looked up a church of his liking and we ended up going to a Baptist church. Well, they were sharing a Franklin Graham film in which he tearfully goes up to the altar to get saved. Only... There was no altar up front. So they take him to a room where they proceed to dump all that John Calvin stuff in his head. I am thinking to myself, the guy is in tears just say a salvation prayer with him for the crying out loud.

In the Nicene Creed it mentions,

"He (Christ) will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end."

Not trying to stick any kind of date on anything but treating it as a future event. Even though I believe in a pre-trib rapture I also realize that the date of Christ's return and any event where he meets us in the clouds is not possible for us to know. It is better to believe that Christ can return today, or fifty years from now. Even so come Lord Jesus.

And salvation is meant to something very easy...

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. - Acts 16

Ridiculously easy!

Of course you don't see what all the fuss is about, because at the risk of sounding harsh, you do not realize that the Pre-Trib Rapture idea is not true Protestantism. As delicately as I can say it, I have to say that you are an unwary Jesuit sympathizer. How can I make such an outrageous claim, you say? Very simple: The Pre-Trib Rapture is based on Jesuit Futurism aka "Left Behind" theology! Please read on:

When the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century began attacking the errors of the Papacy with Historicism - the two foundation pillars being "salvation by grace through faith" and "the Papacy is the Antichrist of prophecy", the resulting mass exodus of Catholics prompted the Papacy to huddle up and devise a defense against these attacks. This led to their development of the the lesser known "Jesuit Preterism" by Jesuit Luiz Alcazar and the widely accepted "Jesuit Futurism" aka "Left Behind theology" by Jesuit Francisco Ribera, both of which are not Protestant in the least, but are subscribed to by self styled "Protestants" such as yourself.

The Protestant Reformers crushed these ideas under the weight of Biblical evidence and for 300 years they lay in the dust, until the Protestant Reformation began to die down due to the cessation of Papal persecution of Protestants (whenever things get easy for Christians, that's when Satan moves in). It is then that both Jesuit ideas began to slowly gain the ascendancy. In the 19th century, Darby added your "Pre-Trib Rapture" idea to Jesuit Futurism and today non-Catholics like yourself are found following Jesuit deceptions. Sadly, when this bit of history is presented, Cognitive Dissonance immediately takes over, but there will always be those who will gladly embrace the light of truth and boldly follow wherever the Holy Spirit leads, regardless if it is a fiery chariot or the fiery furnace.

 

[justaname]

The bible says in Deuteronomy...

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. - Deuteronomy 18:22

I looked that word presumptuously up in the Hebrew and Greek dictionary as using a root word 'zuwd' which means....

To boil, boil up, seethe, act proudly, act presumptuously, act rebelliously, be presumptuous, be arrogant, be rebelliously proud
(Qal)
to act presumptuously
to deal arrogantly (with 'al')
to defy proudly (with 'el')

(Hiphil)
to boil, seethe, act proudly
to act presumptuously, act insolently

I am a Lab Technician at a large factory. Of all the years I have worked with the chemist I only had one opportunity to witness to the guy. He was at the microscope analyzing adhesion and it was just me and him in the lab. So I made my little four minute presentation and he just kept looking at his sample and did not return any reply so I returned to my work.

And then, while I was entering in data he speaks! He says... "Do you know what I think it is?" <long pause> "I think it is arrogance!" While still looking through the microscope and not acknowledging my presence.

If I had a word for this generation it is that the unction of the Spirit of God is not arrogance! To do arrogantly is to do presumptuously... And it brings a lot of harm to Christianity.

I agree. I know in my current studies I am able to look at differing opinions and see the merit in most of them. Now I must come to some type of conclusions regarding differing opinions, yet I will likely have to answer for some of the stances I have taken once I meet my Maker. This keeps me humble and open to the truth. Theology does not conform into the box I create in my mind.

This being said certain things are non-negotiable: Divinity of Christ; physical resurrection; eventual return; death of the Christ for the sin of the world...

 

[Phoneman777]

I agree. I know in my current studies I am able to look at differing opinions and see the merit in most of them. Now I must come to some type of conclusions regarding differing opinions, yet I will likely have to answer for some of the stances I have taken once I meet my Maker. This keeps me humble and open to the truth. Theology does not conform into the box I create in my mind.

This being said certain things are non-negotiable: Divinity of Christ; physical resurrection; eventual return; death of the Christ for the sin of the world...

Yes, but what about other things like the identity of the Beast, the Mark of the Beast, the Number of the Beast, the Restrainer, whether the 70th Week is future, OSAS, who is the Israel of end time prophecy, etc? Is it really "open mindedness" to cast all these aside as "not pertaining to the church" in one fell swoop, or is that the height of arrogance and dogmatic pride?

 

[justaname]

Yes, but what about other things like the identity of the Beast, the Mark of the Beast, the Number of the Beast, the Restrainer, whether the 70th Week is future, OSAS, who is the Israel of end time prophecy, etc? Is it really "open mindedness" to cast all these aside as "not pertaining to the church" in one fell swoop, or is that the height of arrogance and dogmatic pride?

Unless God has given you His direct insight pertaining to theses issues and appointed you a prophet instilling His word in you to proclaim the truth concerning these, I think it best to not be dogmatic.

 

[Phoneman777]

Unless God has given you His direct insight pertaining to theses issues and appointed you a prophet instilling His word in you to proclaim the truth concerning these, I think it best to not be dogmatic.

I think it's best that we rely on the prophets God has already sent us: John the Revelator, Daniel, etc. Unfortunately, many today who believe in a secret Rapture followed by the rise of a one man Antichrist during the last seven years of tribulation are following the false prophecies of Jesuit Francisco Ribera

 

[justaname]

I think it's best that we rely on the prophets God has already sent us: John the Revelator, Daniel, etc. Unfortunately, many today who believe in a secret Rapture followed by the rise of a one man Antichrist during the last seven years of tribulation are following the false prophecies of Jesuit Francisco Ribera

My point is Francisco Ribera could be correct. It is best to not be dogmatic either way! Jeremiah was not received in his day, John the Baptist was beheaded, Jesus was crucified. The two witnesses in Revelation will be killed and left in the street for all to see.

Prophets are rarely accepted as such.

 

[justaname]

edit

 

[rockytopva]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go with the scientist, Isaac Newton, who spoke up with a spirit of humility and not presumptuously...

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

I could go along with a teaching like this who admits that it is own opinion, leaving the door open for Christ to do as he pleases.

 

[rockytopva]

The original Nicene Creed of 325 AD was something very short, which was all we really needed...

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is, from the essence of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one essence with the Father, through Whom all things came into being, things in heaven and things on earth, Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down and became incarnate, becoming man, suffered and rose again on the third day, ascended to the heavens, and will come again to judge the living and the dead;

And in the Holy Spirit.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. - 2 Corinthians 11:3

How did the serpent beguile Eve? By presenting a case that would be pleasant and make one wise? A lot of the doctrinal divisions are a result of having our minds corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.

 

[StanJ]

I agree with your OP Rocky and as I don't agree with most of the others that are already responding on this thread, some of which I have on ignore, I won't bother saying anything more. Blessings. :)

 

[Phoneman777]

My point is Francisco Ribera could be correct. It is best to not be dogmatic either way! Jeremiah was not received in his day, John the Baptist was beheaded, Jesus was crucified. The two witnesses in Revelation will be killed and left in the street for all to see.

Prophets are rarely accepted as such.

There is no possible way Francisco Ribera can be correct, Justaname. He didn't approach the Bible prayerfully asking for a revelation of truth, but for confirmation of what he had already decided was truth - that the Papacy was not the Antichrist - and since when does this approach ever lead to truth?

You should know that the whole reason for the development of the Jesuit Order during the "Counter Reformation" was to overthrown the Protestant Reformation.

 

[justaname]

There is no possible way Francisco Ribera can be correct, Justaname. He didn't approach the Bible prayerfully asking for a revelation of truth, but for confirmation of what he had already decided was truth - that the Papacy was not the Antichrist - and since when does this approach ever lead to truth?

You should know that the whole reason for the development of the Jesuit Order during the "Counter Reformation" was to overthrown the Protestant Reformation.

And were you there to witness how Francisco approached the Bible?

 

[Phoneman777]

And were you there to witness how Francisco approached the Bible?

At the Council of Trent, the Jesuits were commissioned by the Pope with the task of developing an interpretation of eschatology that would overthrow the Protestant Reformation. You are free to believe Ribera ignored the Pope's request to be subjective but you will dethrone the most confused individual on the planet: a white Rastafarian Israelite.

 

[iakov]

Even though I am one, I get tired of Protestants trying to figure it all out... Especially....

1. Putting a date on Christ's return - Thus we have the pre-, mid-, and post-trib bunch
2. Salvation - Thus we have the Calvinist and Armenian folk
3. Doctrine - Making long and endless doctrine

And then... Once they get it all figured out... They become arrogant and unapproachable. Even in my Pentecostal Holiness church, once they feel like they have arrived all humility goes out the window and their spirits can become unbearable. They will even get upset with you if you try to mess with their mental web, in which as they were decades in sewing, feel justified in.

I have a book ministry at work where I share Christian material with my co-workers. One guy wanted to get saved but not in my Pentecostal church. So I looked up a church of his liking and we ended up going to a Baptist church. Well, they were sharing a Franklin Graham film in which he tearfully goes up to the altar to get saved. Only... There was no altar up front. So they take him to a room where they proceed to dump all that John Calvin stuff in his head. I am thinking to myself, the guy is in tears just say a salvation prayer with him for the crying out loud.

In the Nicene Creed it mentions,

"He (Christ) will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end."

Not trying to stick any kind of date on anything but treating it as a future event. Even though I believe in a pre-trib rapture I also realize that the date of Christ's return and any event where he meets us in the clouds is not possible for us to know. It is better to believe that Christ can return today, or fifty years from now. Even so come Lord Jesus.

And salvation is meant to something very easy...

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. - Acts 16

Ridiculously easy!

I was an ordained minister and missionary to Moscow with the Pentecostal Holiness Church where we set up a Bible College for the unregistered Russian Pentecostal church.
Now I worship at a Russian Orthodox church. No Calvinism - No Rapture - No angry God. Just love God and do your best to keep His commands: Love God and your neighbor.
There is a steady stream of ex-reformed Protestants coming into Orthodoxy because they made a serious study of what the early church was like and found that it was still going on today in the Eastern Orthodox churches.