Public enemy No. 1

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RedFan

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Grace and mercy and redemption through the blood of Christ to be obtained through faith, the righteousness of Christ imputed, to whomsoever calls upon the name of the Lord. The righteousness of Christ is then imparted through the ministry of Christ's intercession before the throne of His Father in heaven and the operation of the holy Spirit and the washing of the Word in the mind and heart of those who believe.

I'm troubled by this notion of Christ's righteousness being "then imparted through the ministry of Christ's intercession before the throne of His Father in heaven." Why would Christ, post-Calvary, need to intercede on our behalf with the Father, who has already decreed that the blood of his Son achieves righteousness for believers?

The concept of intercession is that one intercedes on another's behalf to change the mind of a decisionmaker with power over that other. Is this what you think is going on in the throne room of Heaven? ("Father, forgive them, stay your hand of judgment against them, deem them righteous, I implore you." "Son, your memory must be foggy; I already decided to do that very thing when you were on the cross and said 'it is finished.' You don't need to plead anyone's case with me. Go get yourself some Xanax!")

I think it's better to conclude that as the mediator between God and man, Christ's work is done. No further mediations are needed; Christ himself is now the appointed judge of mankind, and doesn't need to go to the Father, hat in hand, begging for mercy toward us. Father and Son are already on the same page here.
 
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Brakelite

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I'm troubled by this notion of Christ's righteousness being "then imparted through the ministry of Christ's intercession before the throne of His Father in heaven." Why would Christ, post-Calvary, need to intercede on our behalf with the Father, who has already decreed that the blood of his Son achieves righteousness for believers?

The concept of intercession is that one intercedes on another's behalf to change the mind of a decisionmaker with power over that other. Is this what you think is going on in the throne room of Heaven? ("Father, forgive them, stay your hand of judgment against them, deem them righteous, I implore you." "Son, your memory must be foggy; I already decided to do that very thing when you were on the cross and said 'it is finished.' You don't need to plead anyone's case with me. Go get yourself some Xanax!")

I think it's better to conclude that as the mediator between God and man, Christ's work is done. No further mediations are needed; Christ himself is now the appointed judge of mankind, and doesn't need to go to the Father, hat in hand, begging for mercy toward us. Father and Son are already on the same page here.
So how do our prayers ascend to the throne room without first being translated into the will of the Father if Christ is not interceding on our behalf? Is He not our High Priest? Think about the OT sanctuary, a type and prophetic picture of the gospel.
A. The sacrifice takes place in the courtyard... Outside the sanctuary... Calvary.
B. The priest takes the blood into the sanctuary to continue his ministry there... Jesus after His ascension enters the heavenly sanctuary to present Himself before His Father, sending the holy Spirit upon the church.
C. Once a year the High Priest enters the Most Holy Place to minister there and when they is complete at the very end of the religious annual calendar, he leaves the sanctuary and his mediatorial role is over.... Jesus is now out High Priest. When He finishes there He takes up His kingly role to return to earth to take His people/ bride home.

Whatever Christ finished at Calvary, want what you think it is. He has not yet finished as our High Priest and intercessor on our behalf... But that time to finish is soon.

The modem claim that the work of Christ finished at Calvary, and our redemption and Atonement done and dusted at that point, is an incomplete view of the gospel.
 

RedFan

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So how do our prayers ascend to the throne room without first being translated into the will of the Father if Christ is not interceding on our behalf?

I pray to a God who needs no translator. How about you?
 

mailmandan

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Haven't seen your rants in a while! R U having a bad day? Do you need a hug? Hat to tell you but those Romanist councils are not the word of God.

You need to learn the difference between justifcation redemption, sanctification, salvation etc.

Romans 5
King James Version

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

the bible in very simple grammar a second grader can understand proves the council of Trent has lied to untold billions.
Amen! The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved/justified through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; 3:26; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.
 
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Brakelite

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I'm troubled by this notion of Christ's righteousness being "then imparted through the ministry of Christ's intercession
How do you think sanctification works? You may be justified, that is declared righteous. What about your actual character? You think that's good enough for the company of angels and God Himself?
 

RedFan

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How do you think sanctification works? You may be justified, that is declared righteous. What about your actual character? You think that's good enough for the company of angels and God Himself?

I agree with you, sanctification is an ongoing process apart from justification (= being declared "righteous"). But I thought we were discussing intercession for purposes of righteousness. Yup. I just re-read your post to be sure.
 

Brakelite

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I agree with you, sanctification is an ongoing process apart from justification (= being declared "righteous"). But I thought we were discussing intercession for purposes of righteousness. Yup. I just re-read your post to be sure.
Indeed. Sanctification cannot be accomplished without Christ's intercession and priestly role. "Without Me ye can do nothing".
 

RedFan

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Indeed. Sanctification cannot be accomplished without Christ's intercession and priestly role. "Without Me ye can do nothing".

So, can we agree that if there is any intercession going on today, it is focused on our sanctification and not justification? (Whether only the Father can sanctify us, and whether the Son has to ask the Father to do it by means of "intercession," is a separate question.)
 

Brakelite

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So, can we agree that if there is any intercession going on today, it is focused on our sanctification and not justification?
Totally agree. Which actually leads to another question however... Is our justification equivalent to being saved in the end? In other words, is our sanctification necessary, essential, to our final saved position?
 
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amadeus

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I'm troubled by this notion of Christ's righteousness being "then imparted through the ministry of Christ's intercession before the throne of His Father in heaven." Why would Christ, post-Calvary, need to intercede on our behalf with the Father, who has already decreed that the blood of his Son achieves righteousness for believers?
...
Consider the blood then...

...where one says blood, another says spirit...or even Spirit... or even Holy Spirit.

*****************
...Is the Spirit the Blood of Jesus?

In the OT especially in the Book of Leviticus it is made clear that life is in the blood, but that is speaking of carnal animals [and people] having physical life. It was a type or shadow of the real Life which was given up in Eden, but brought back for whosoever will by Jesus. Jesus came as a physical man with physical blood and he shed that blood, but he also shed [poured out] something that no physical man had, the Spirit. [On that day of Pentecost in Acts 2.]

Men had spirit, but it was corrupted with no real Life in it. Men with only the red blood of the body were effectively dead in the eyes of God.

Jesus came to change that. He did not do it with by sharing with us the red blood of his also corruptible [corruptible, but NOT corrupted] body of flesh. The shedding of that red blood by Jesus opened the Door... the Gate... closed and guarded when Adam and Eve were put outside of the Garden. How could anyone walk through that Gate?

The real Life lost in the Garden was and is the Spirit... that which God breathed into men. Men corrupted it and were from that point walking dead men [zombies].

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white [not red!] in the blood of the Lamb."
Revelation 7:14,

So the Blood of the Lamb accomplished not another or a renewed redness, but rather a Whiteness...

Consider Esau [rough] who was called Edom [red] because he ate of the red pottage made by Jacob in exchange for his birthright. He gave away his hope to Jacob for that red pottage... the ways of the flesh.

Did not Jesus bring us something better than red pottage? How about robes made white by his Blood? How does this relate to this verse?

"But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion." Joel 3:20-21

In the natural we might believe that this was a sorting out of the mixed bloodlines of the natural Israelites [see Ezra 9:2-3 where Ezra was so upset that he pulled out his own beard.] This may be right, but could this not also be simply a type or shadow of the double mindedness of Christian believers?

What is Zion? One Hebrew derivation of the word means "dry or barren land". That is what every one of us were before [and IF] we received Life from Jesus. Spiritually, we effectively had no Blood [Spirit] in us. We were dead. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their dead" [Matt 8:22]. Apostle Paul writes:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" John 10:10

The following verse quotes the prophet Joel:

"And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:" Acts 2:18

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38-39
 
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Brakelite

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Consider the blood then...

...where one says blood, another says spirit...or even Spirit... or even Holy Spirit.

*****************
...Is the Spirit the Blood of Jesus?

In the OT especially in the Book of Leviticus it is made clear that life is in the blood, but that is speaking of carnal animals [and people] having physical life. It was a type or shadow of the real Life which was given up in Eden, but brought back for whosoever will by Jesus. Jesus came as a physical man with physical blood and he shed that blood, but he also shed [poured out] something that no physical man had, the Spirit. [On that day of Pentecost in Acts 2.]

Men had spirit, but it was corrupted with no real Life in it. Men with only the red blood of the body were effectively dead in the eyes of God.

Jesus came to change that. He did not do it with by sharing with us the red blood of his also corruptible [corruptible, but NOT corrupted] body of flesh. The shedding of that red blood by Jesus opened the Door... the Gate... closed and guarded when Adam and Eve were put outside of the Garden. How could anyone walk through that Gate?

The real Life lost in the Garden was and is the Spirit... that which God breathed into men. Men corrupted it and were from that point walking dead men [zombies].

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white [not red!] in the blood of the Lamb."
Revelation 7:14,

So the Blood of the Lamb accomplished not another or a renewed redness, but rather a Whiteness...

Consider Esau [rough] who was called Edom [red] because he ate of the red pottage made by Jacob in exchange for his birthright. He gave away his hope to Jacob for that red pottage... the ways of the flesh.

Did not Jesus bring us something better than red pottage? How about robes made white by his Blood? How does this relate to this verse?

"But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion." Joel 3:20-21

In the natural we might believe that this was a sorting out of the mixed bloodlines of the natural Israelites [see Ezra 9:2-3 where Ezra was so upset that he pulled out his own beard.] This may be right, but could this not also be simply a type or shadow of the double mindedness of Christian believers?

What is Zion? One Hebrew derivation of the word means "dry or barren land". That is what every one of us were before [and IF] we received Life from Jesus. Spiritually, we effectively had no Blood [Spirit] in us. We were dead. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their dead" [Matt 8:22]. Apostle Paul writes:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" John 10:10

The following verse quotes the prophet Joel:

"And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:" Acts 2:18

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38-39
Good stuff my friend.
KJV John 3:5-8
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
 
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RedFan

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Totally agree. Which actually leads to another question however... Is our justification equivalent to being saved in the end? In other words, is our sanctification necessary, essential, to our final saved position?

Terrific question, deserving of its own original post. I would say that our sanctification is necessary and essential to our final saved position.

“Justification—which is to say, forgiveness of our sins and consequent
righteousness before God—is brought about by faith in the sacrifice of our Savior Jesus
Christ; it is this which satisfies the demands of God’s justice in the face of our sins and
reconciles us to God. Sanctification—which is to say, the active process of the believer’s
chosen life of holiness—is brought about by choosing to behave morally, to avoid sin and
to demonstrate through our actions a love of God and our neighbor. Both are a matter of
God’s grace. And both are necessary to salvation. Those who seek salvation by the
sincere performance of good works alone are doomed to failure, if they have not been
first justified by faith. Likewise, those who rely solely on their justification through faith
for their salvation, but thereafter do not live according to the Spirit they have received,
also are doomed to failure.”

“But does not one flow naturally from the other?” I asked. “Is not justification
through faith in Christ a guarantee of sanctification as well?”

“You ask two different questions, Mark! Yes, the same faith which justifies may
also lead one to be sanctified, by implanting in the believer the will to act in accordance
with God’s will. But that is not a necessary consequence. Free choice remains to be
exercised. A person chooses to believe, and also chooses to behave—and one can make
the first choice yet not make the second in harmony with the first.”

“But if a man truly believes something, surely he will act in accordance with that
belief.” Now it was I who was beginning to sound like Timothy. “If one behaves other
than in accordance with one’s professed belief, does that not betray the belief as not truly
held to begin with?”

"You confuse faith with faithfulness, Mark. We do not cast off human flaws and
weaknesses simply by believing in the saving gospel of Jesus of Nazareth. By that faith
the slate is instantly wiped clean—and handed back to us. How we will write on it after
that is up to each of us, with all our flaws and frailties, but also with the saving grace of
God to help us overcome them.”
 
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theefaith

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You misapply faith alone. Having a correct understanding of what protestants actually mean when they speak of faith alone may help you to appreciate more the truth of the gospel... Grace and mercy and redemption through the blood of Christ to be obtained through faith, the righteousness of Christ imputed, to whomsoever calls upon the name of the Lord. The righteousness of Christ is then imparted through the ministry of Christ's intercession before the throne of His Father in heaven and the operation of the holy Spirit and the washing of the Word in the mind and heart of those who believe.

what about the initiation into the new covenant? Baptism

faith and baptism are required

it’s a covenant not a Bible study!
 

marksman

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Valid Christian baptism requires the flowing water over the forehead three times. Jn 3:5

With the words:

I baptize you in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit! Matt 28:19

The grace of God washing away all sin! Acts 22:16




Immersion, pouring, sprinkling are valid forms of baptism.

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (Baptism)

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

John 3 v 5. Nothing there about sprinkling water over the forehead.

Matt 29 V 19. No one in the new testament was baptized in the trinity.

Acts 22 v 16 does not say anything about flowing water over the forehead three times.

Nowhere does it say in scripture that pouring and sprinkling are valid forms of baptism.

1 Peter 1 v 2 Sprinkling of the BLOOD (not water.)

Heb 10 v 22. hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience. Nothing at all to do with baptism. Bodies WASHED with pure water. Not sprinkled.

Nought out of 10 for your assumptions which have no basis in scripture.
 

theefaith

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John 3 v 5. Nothing there about sprinkling water over the forehead.

Matt 29 V 19. No one in the new testament was baptized in the trinity.

Acts 22 v 16 does not say anything about flowing water over the forehead three times.

Nowhere does it say in scripture that pouring and sprinkling are valid forms of baptism.

1 Peter 1 v 2 Sprinkling of the BLOOD (not water.)

Heb 10 v 22. hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience. Nothing at all to do with baptism. Bodies WASHED with pure water. Not sprinkled.

Nought out of 10 for your assumptions which have no basis in scripture.

sprinkling or pouring is washing

you ignored ez 36

the church is subject unto Christ
And Matt 28:19

Matt 28:19

The holy church obeys the command Of Jesus!

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing so remain in Christ!

Keep his commandment!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:5 But who so keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

His word: Matt 28:19

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
 

marksman

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sprinkling or pouring is washing

you ignored ez 36

the church is subject unto Christ
And Matt 28:19

Matt 28:19

The holy church obeys the command Of Jesus!

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing so remain in Christ!

Keep his commandment!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:5 But who so keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

His word: Matt 28:19

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Not where I come from.

Matt 28:19 The holy church obeys the command Of Jesus! There is not one single reference to the church being baptized in the trinity.

Matt 28:19 Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

What is the name of the trinity? Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not names, they are titles.

The rest of your post is nothing more than a rant of scriptures taken out of context which you seem to specialize in and which shows you are the last person to talk to if one wants to know what the scriptures teach.

What is ez 36?
 

theefaith

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We don’t believe the false doctrine of the Bible alone but the teaching authority of Christ

You can reject the trinity and divinity of as you wish
 

farouk

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John 3 v 5. Nothing there about sprinkling water over the forehead.

Matt 29 V 19. No one in the new testament was baptized in the trinity.

Acts 22 v 16 does not say anything about flowing water over the forehead three times.

Nowhere does it say in scripture that pouring and sprinkling are valid forms of baptism.

1 Peter 1 v 2 Sprinkling of the BLOOD (not water.)

Heb 10 v 22. hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience. Nothing at all to do with baptism. Bodies WASHED with pure water. Not sprinkled.

Nought out of 10 for your assumptions which have no basis in scripture.
Interesting that in Matthew 28 Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned by the Lord Jesus in connection with baptism, in the Great Commission.
 

marksman

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Interesting that in Matthew 28 Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned by the Lord Jesus in connection with baptism, in the Great Commission.
Interesting that NO ONE in the New Testament Church was baptised in the trinity.