Public enemy No. 1

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theefaith

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Interesting that NO ONE in the New Testament Church was baptised in the trinity.

the only valid baptism into the new covenant church is by:
Matt 28:19

Valid Christian baptism requires the flowing water over the forehead three times.

With the words:

I baptize you in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit! Matt 28:19

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…

And Christ COMMANDED baptism in the trinity! Matt 28:19

You can reject the trinity and the divinity of Christ if you like but at the loss of salvation

trinity and divinity of Christ are Christian doctrines and you cannot have salvation apart from Christ and his holy church
 

marksman

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the only valid baptism into the new covenant church is by:
Matt 28:19

Valid Christian baptism requires the flowing water over the forehead three times.

With the words:

I baptize you in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit! Matt 28:19

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…

And Christ COMMANDED baptism in the trinity! Matt 28:19

You can reject the trinity and the divinity of Christ if you like but at the loss of salvation

trinity and divinity of Christ are Christian doctrines and you cannot have salvation apart from Christ and his holy church

Yet no one in the New Testament church was baptised in the trinity. I will say it again. NO ONE in the New Testament church was baptised in the trinity.
 
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Matthias

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Yet no one in the New Testament church was baptised in the trinity. I will say it again. NO ONE in the New Testament church was baptised in the trinity.

No one in the New Testament church was trinitarian. The doctrine of the Trinity was developed in post-biblical times.
 
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marksman

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You can reject the trinity and the divinity of Christ if you like but at the loss of salvation

Where does it say in scripture that we will lose our salvation if we don't believe in your understanding of the trinity?
 

Matthias

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”It is a simple and undeniable historical fact that several major doctrines that now seem central to the Christian faith - such as the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of the deity of Christ - were not present in a full and well-defined, generally accepted form until the fourth or fifth centuries. If they are essential today - as all of the orthodox creeds and confessions assert - it must be because they are true. If they are true, then they must always have been true; they cannot have become true in the fourth and fifth centuries. But if they are both true and essential, how can it be that the early church took centuries to formulate them?”

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church, p. 20)

Bold is mine.

The reasoning is circular.

The history is verifiable. It is well-preserved in Church history.

It’s the circular reasoning, not the Church history, that I have an issue with.

Dr. Brown begins with the premise that what was decided at Nicaea and Chalcedon is both essential and true. What if it isn’t? What if the premise is false? Without it, what do we have? Jewish unitary monotheism. (And other non-trinitarian faith traditions.)

We have @theefaith’s Catholic theologians / the Catholic Church to thank for formulating what is asserted to be the “true and essential” doctrines of the Trinity and the deity of Christ, for making what was previously unknown and untaught as Christian doctrine, known and taught as Christian doctrine.

Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian. The earliest Christians were Jewish monotheists, not trinitarians, who believed that a fellow Jewish man - one of their contemporaries - is the Messiah promised, raised up and sent into the world by his and their God (the Father alone.)

The early Church began within Judaism, as a sect of Judaism. The early Church soon separated from Judaism, and the Church gradually formulated doctrines which were not formulated by, were not known to it, prior to the separation from Judaism.

The composition of the Church gradually changed from nearly exclusively Jewish membership to nearly exclusively Gentile membership after the early Church took the gospel to the Gentiles.

The doctrine of God was modified by Gentile theologians as they sought to explain and honor the God of Israel. The Jewish unitary monotheism of Jesus and the earliest Christians - of Judaism - was gradually replaced with the trinitarian monotheism of the Catholic Church (and most Protestant denominations.)

My response to Dr. Brown’s premise is that it’s false. I don’t buy in to his circular reasoning. It’s short-circuited by Judaism, by the New Testament Church, and by Church history.
 

Matthias

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the only valid baptism into the new covenant church is by:
Matt 28:19

Valid Christian baptism requires the flowing water over the forehead three times.

With the words:

I baptize you in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit! Matt 28:19

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…

And Christ COMMANDED baptism in the trinity! Matt 28:19

You can reject the trinity and the divinity of Christ if you like but at the loss of salvation

trinity and divinity of Christ are Christian doctrines and you cannot have salvation apart from Christ and his holy church

Your assertion that “trinity and divinity of Christ are Christian doctrines” is consistent with the teaching of the RCC. The Athanasian Creed, which you’ve directed my attention to on several occasions, is unequivocal on the matter. “Believe it or perish,” as many Catholics have informed me over the years.

I tell you that, as a Roman Catholic, you have fulfilled your responsibility. And I thank you for it. My blood is not on your head.

I, as a Jewish monotheist follower of the Messiah, also have a responsibility to fulfill.

Jesus of Nazareth doesn’t say in scripture what the Athanasian Creed says. This is something that we should be able to agree on.

I believe we place ourselves in jeopardy when we go beyond what is written in scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6) and I assert that is what the Athanasian Creed does.

There is no God besides the Messiah’s God and Father, the God of Abraham. Everything else is idolatry.

You can reject what I’ve said, but at the possible loss of salvation. (I leave that decision where it belongs, in the hands of God and of Messiah Jesus.)

I don’t know if you’ll thank me for telling you this or not, but - by telling you - your blood is not on my head.
 

theefaith

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Yet no one in the New Testament church was baptised in the trinity. I will say it again. NO ONE in the New Testament church was baptised in the trinity.

every one who has ever been baptized (valid) was baptized in the form commanded by Christ in Matt 28:19

Since you deny the divinity of Christ you don’t have to obey him!
 

theefaith

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Where does it say in scripture that we will lose our salvation if we don't believe in your understanding of the trinity?

so you really think it’s lawful r to reject a doctrine reveled by Christ and taught by holy mother church?

to reject Christ is to reject salvation Lk 2:30 Jesus Christ is our salvation or savior Lk 2:10-11
And scripture say God is savior
Lk 1:47
 

theefaith

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Your assertion that “trinity and divinity of Christ are Christian doctrines” is consistent with the teaching of the RCC. The Athanasian Creed, which you’ve directed my attention to on several occasions, is unequivocal on the matter. “Believe it or perish,” as many Catholics have informed me over the years.

I tell you that, as a Roman Catholic, you have fulfilled your responsibility. And I thank you for it. My blood is not on your head.

I, as a Jewish monotheist follower of the Messiah, also have a responsibility to fulfill.

Jesus of Nazareth doesn’t say in scripture what the Athanasian Creed says. This is something that we should be able to agree on.

I believe we place ourselves in jeopardy when we go beyond what is written in scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6) and I assert that is what the Athanasian Creed does.

There is no God besides the Messiah’s God and Father, the God of Abraham. Everything else is idolatry.

You can reject what I’ve said, but at the possible loss of salvation. (I leave that decision where it belongs, in the hands of God and of Messiah Jesus.)

I don’t know if you’ll thank me for telling you this or not, but - by telling you - your blood is not on my head.

how do you see Jn 14:6 exclusive?
 

Matthias

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how do you see Jn 14:6 exclusive?

Access to the one God is, since the coming of the Messiah, through the Messiah. Those who reject the Messiah may /will still claim they have access to God, but they don’t. That was his point to his fellow Jews who rejected his messianic claim. In rejecting him they rejected the one God, his God, who sent him.
 

theefaith

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Access to the one God is, since the coming of the Messiah, through the Messiah. Those who reject the Messiah may /will still claim they have access to God, but they don’t. That was his point to his fellow Jews who rejected his messianic claim. In rejecting him they rejected the one God, his God, who sent him.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Only in God can all things consist!

Mystery of the trinity!

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints
 

Matthias

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Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Only in God can all things consist!

Mystery of the trinity!

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints

Take out the doctrine of the Trinity, which came centuries after biblical times - long after the 12 apostles were dead - and we would find ourselves much closer to agreement.

You can’t do that, and I can’t abandon the Messiah’s faith to go where you are.

The best we can do at present is engage in interfaith dialogue with one another.

I find that valuable and beneficial to both parties.