Purgatory and Praying to Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[jaybird]

And this post show yet another glaring example of your ignorance.

Are you NOT aware that Christianity wasn't decriminalized in the Roman empire until the reign of Constantine in the FOURTH century??
Are you NOT aware of the Roman persecution of the Early Church up until then??

Finally - Rome isn't a Church. The Church AT Rome was where Peter and Paul both preached and died.
Rome was turn upside-down by Christ's Church and eventually accepted Christianity.

I suggest you crack open a history book - AND a Bible . . .

Before they "accepted" Christianity were they not trying to destroy Christianity?

 

[BreadOfLife]

We can deal with that but first let's go back to the ignorant statement.
Rome killed Jesus.
Rome killed 11 of the 12
Rome imprisoned the 12th
Rome killed st Paul
Rome killed John the Baptist.

Which one of these is wrong?

More ignorance . . .

PAGAN Rome killed Jesus at the behest of the Jews.
PAGAN Rome killed some of the Apostles. James was killed by Herod Antipas. You'll have to show me documented proof of Pagan Rome having killed the rest of the Apostles.
PAGAN Rome imprisoned John
PAGAN Rome killed Paul
Herod Antipas killed John the Baptist - NOT Pagan Rome.

Your ignorance is astounding . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Before they "accepted" Christianity were they not trying to destroy Christianity?

PAGAN Rome persecuted Christianity for almost 300 years.
As as @Illuminator has already schooled you - this INCLUDES over 39 Catholic Popes.

YOU are conflating Pagan rom with the Church.

 

[jaybird]

More ignorance . . .

PAGAN Rome killed Jesus at the behest of the Jews.
PAGAN Rome killed some of the Apostles. James was killed by Herod Antipas. You'll have to show me documented proof of Pagan Rome having killed the rest of the Apostles.
PAGAN Rome imprisoned John
PAGAN Rome killed Paul
Herod Antipas killed John the Baptist - NOT Pagan Rome.

Your ignorance is astounding . . .

calling it "pagan" rome does not change the fact thats its rome. pagan rome, imperial rome, western rome, etc etc, its all the same thing.

king herod killed John B. he was placed on the throne after visiting the emperor, giving the emperor a large monetary gift and promising to push roman superiority. When he founded new cities and named them “Caesarea” whose interest is he serving? And "the Jews" hated him.

James was killed 40 - 70 ad. not sure who was king but it really doesnt matter, you could not get that seat of power with out bowing down to rome like herod did.

Pilate was in charge when Jesus was killed, now you can say “the Jews” killed Him if you like, but the Jews in question would be the temple leadership and they were given their seats of power by rome. There were good leaders in the temple, a good example would be Zachariah the father of John, the bible does not mention what happened to him, but there are many historical accounts that say herod had him killed. Zachariah and John were loved by the people “the Jews” but herod, appointed by rome, had them killed.

And that in a nutshell is how you control and manipulate a group of people, find someone that will be your puppet (herod) have the puppet kill off all those that oppose you (Zacharia and John) and replace those guys with thugs to be the new temple leadership.

Now if your going to tell me “pagan” rome and post nicea rome are two completely different things, I would like to see the evidence on that. How did rome change? Lets look at St Paul, thats a good example.

Paul (pre Jesus)– one of those herodian goons that persecutes Christians and murders people.

Paul (post Jesus) – stops murdering people, devotes his life to the work of Jesus and in the end dies for his faith.

Before – a murderer
after – not a murderer
this is the most important part, Paul could have preached the words of Jesus day in and day out but if he is still killing people we know he is the same old Paul, he is not the same old Paul, he changed.

Now lets go back to rome and look for that change.

Rome before Jesus – conquering kingdoms against their will, mass slavery, the very few control the masses, emperors, senators, and nobles would think nothing of killing their own brother to get the inheritance.

Rome after Jesus – no change other than we can add a few things now, now bishops held power often over an entire region. marquis de sade who is known as one of the most sexually debauched men in history was raised by his uncle who happened to be a bishop. We also have crusades, burning people alive, inquisitions where people are tortured, crusades against entire Christian regions like the Cathars who before they were killed, lived in peace right alongside Catholic Christians, rome burned entire villages to the ground in that one, many were full of innocent women and children. Then you have Charlemagne who executed four thousand five hundred saxons in one day, and what was their crime, they didnt want to be Christian. I thought Jesus said to shake the dust and move to the next town?

call it what you like, i see the same monster with a different mask.

are there any examples in scripture where someone made war on the Lords anointed and they were rewarded with the Lords church? how many scriptures are there about persecuting the Lords anointed?

Psalm 105:15
saying, “Touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm!”

 

[jaybird]

to any Catholics here that is watching my discussion with BOL and ILL, i hope this does not sound like i am against Catholics, a lot of my family is Italian, lots are Catholic, they are believers just as I am, i do not doubt BOL and ILLs faith, my issue is with imperial rome and the leadership. i have just as many issues with the non Catholic leadership as well.

 

[BreadOfLife]

calling it "pagan" rome does not change the fact thats its rome. pagan rome, imperial rome, western rome, etc etc, its all the same thing.

king herod killed John B. he was placed on the throne after visiting the emperor, giving the emperor a large monetary gift and promising to push roman superiority. When he founded new cities and named them “Caesarea” whose interest is he serving? And "the Jews" hated him.

James was killed 40 - 70 ad. not sure who was king but it really doesnt matter, you could not get that seat of power with out bowing down to rome like herod did.

Pilate was in charge when Jesus was killed, now you can say “the Jews” killed Him if you like, but the Jews in question would be the temple leadership and they were given their seats of power by rome. There were good leaders in the temple, a good example would be Zachariah the father of John, the bible does not mention what happened to him, but there are many historical accounts that say herod had him killed. Zachariah and John were loved by the people “the Jews” but herod, appointed by rome, had them killed.

And that in a nutshell is how you control and manipulate a group of people, find someone that will be your puppet (herod) have the puppet kill off all those that oppose you (Zacharia and John) and replace those guys with thugs to be the new temple leadership.

Now if your going to tell me “pagan” rome and post nicea rome are two completely different things, I would like to see the evidence on that. How did rome change? Lets look at St Paul, thats a good example.

Paul (pre Jesus)– one of those herodian goons that persecutes Christians and murders people.

Paul (post Jesus) – stops murdering people, devotes his life to the work of Jesus and in the end dies for his faith.

Before – a murderer
after – not a murderer
this is the most important part, Paul could have preached the words of Jesus day in and day out but if he is still killing people we know he is the same old Paul, he is not the same old Paul, he changed.

Now lets go back to rome and look for that change.

Rome before Jesus – conquering kingdoms against their will, mass slavery, the very few control the masses, emperors, senators, and nobles would think nothing of killing their own brother to get the inheritance.

Rome after Jesus – no change other than we can add a few things now, now bishops held power often over an entire region. marquis de sade who is known as one of the most sexually debauched men in history was raised by his uncle who happened to be a bishop. We also have crusades, burning people alive, inquisitions where people are tortured, crusades against entire Christian regions like the Cathars who before they were killed, lived in peace right alongside Catholic Christians, rome burned entire villages to the ground in that one, many were full of innocent women and children. Then you have Charlemagne who executed four thousand five hundred saxons in one day, and what was their crime, they didnt want to be Christian. I thought Jesus said to shake the dust and move to the next town?

call it what you like, i see the same monster with a different mask.

are there any examples in scripture where someone made war on the Lords anointed and they were rewarded with the Lords church? how many scriptures are there about persecuting the Lords anointed?

Psalm 105:15
saying, “Touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm!”

And there you go again conflating "ROME" with the CHURCH at Rome.
Pagan Rome and the Church IN Rome are NOT the same thing. This is nothing more than an exercise in ignorance on YOUR part.

As for your other claims - WRONG on all points.

Herod Antipas killed BOTH James AND John the Baptist. This had NOTHING to do with Rome - or the Church AT Rome.
YOUR claim is as moronic as saying if we vote n a corrupt politician - WE are guilty of his crimes.

As for Rome AFTER Nicaea - YOUR comments only serve to magnify your woeful ignorance of history.
As for the Crusades - youu know NOTHING about them. This is a very complex subject and one that MANY Protestant scholars have come to accept as necessary on the stage of history. Had it not been for the Crusades - YOU would be speaking Arabic and worshiping Allah.

MY suggestion to you is that you take some time off - READ some history and Scripture - THEN come back and debate.
Your arguments are embarrassing . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

to any Catholics here that is watching my discussion with BOL and ILL, i hope this does not sound like i am against Catholics, a lot of my family is Italian, lots are Catholic, they are believers just as I am, i do not doubt BOL and ILLs faith, my issue is with imperial rome and the leadership. i have just as many issues with the non Catholic leadership as well.

No - YOUR issue is a woeful-ignorance of history and Scripture.
You seem to have passion - misdirected as it is - but you lack knowledge . . .

 

[jaybird]

And there you go again conflating "ROME" with the CHURCH at Rome.
Pagan Rome and the Church IN Rome are NOT the same thing. This is nothing more than an exercise in ignorance on YOUR part.

As for your other claims - WRONG on all points.

Herod Antipas killed BOTH James AND John the Baptist. This had NOTHING to do with Rome - or the Church AT Rome.
YOUR claim is as moronic as saying if we vote n a corrupt politician - WE are guilty of his crimes.

As for Rome AFTER Nicaea - YOUR comments only serve to magnify your woeful ignorance of history.
As for the Crusades - youu know NOTHING about them. This is a very complex subject and one that MANY Protestant scholars have come to accept as necessary on the stage of history. Had it not been for the Crusades - YOU would be speaking Arabic and worshiping Allah.

MY suggestion to you is that you take some time off - READ some history and Scripture - THEN come back and debate.
Your arguments are embarrassing . . .

yeah the church acted completely independent from rome, how can you believe that?
rome is rome, i just showed you the reality. i dont look at the names, i look at the actions.

king herod was appointed by rome, no one voted on it.

the crusades were about mans greed and thirst for power

i have read but you refuse to debate anything, calling me ignorant and embarrassing only makes you look like you have nothing of substance to add.

 

[jaybird]

No - YOUR issue is a woeful-ignorance of history and Scripture.
You seem to have passion - misdirected as it is - but you lack knowledge . . .

i have had a passion ever since i came out of the cave, ignorance is what kept me in there. ignorance is the state you are in when you dont think for yourself but rather believe whatever they tell you without seeking the answers for yourself.

 

[BreadOfLife]

yeah the church acted completely independent from rome, how can you believe that?
rome is rome, i just showed you the reality. i dont look at the names, i look at the actions.
king herod was appointed by rome, no one voted on it.
the crusades were about mans greed and thirst for power

i have read but you refuse to debate anything, calling me ignorant and embarrassing only makes you look like you have nothing of substance to add.

The utter stupidity of what you've said - especially the statements in RED show a glaring refusal to accept historical truth.
And you're RIGHT - you don't look at names - and you also don't look at facts.

A person as limited as YOU couldn't even BEGIN to understand the complexities of the Crusades - OR their consequences
As I stated earlier - you would be speaking Arabic and worshipping Allah instead of Jesus Christ had it not been for the Crusades.

A simple "Thank you" will suffice . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

i have had a passion ever since i came out of the cave, ignorance is what kept me in there. ignorance is the state you are in when you dont think for yourself but rather believe whatever they tell you without seeking the answers for yourself.

Like I said - your passion is horribly misguided - which is due to your total ignorance of Scripture AND history . . .

 

[jaybird]

The utter stupidity of what you've said - especially the statements in RED show a glaring refusal to accept historical truth.
And you're RIGHT - you don't look at names - and you also don't look at facts.

A person as limited as YOU couldn't even BEGIN to understand the complexities of the Crusades - OR their consequences
As I stated earlier - you would be speaking Arabic and worshipping Allah instead of Jesus Christ had it not been for the Crusades.

A simple "Thank you" will suffice . . .

im still waiting on any examples in scripture where someone made war on the Lords anointed and they were rewarded with the Lords church? did you have a response or you just gonna call me names?

 

[BreadOfLife]

im still waiting on any examples in scripture where someone made war on the Lords anointed and they were rewarded with the Lords church? did you have a response or you just gonna call me names?

And I'M waiting for an example from history of the idiocy of what you just claimed.

 

[Cristo Rei]

The bible does talk about another place for the dead besides heaven and hell...
In the old testament it talks about Sheol a lot... In the new testament it talks about Hades...

So however you want to look at it or which ever term you want to use there is certainly another place were the dead go besides heaven and hell

 

[jaybird]

And I'M waiting for an example from history of the idiocy of what you just claimed.

When rome killed Jesus. Why was rome rewarded with the church?

 

[BreadOfLife]

When rome killed Jesus. Why was rome rewarded with the church?

Rome wasn't "rewarded" with the Church. The Church turned the Roman Empire on its ear.
It no longer exists because of the Church.

You have GOT to study your history - and stop being so content to wallow in ignorance . . .

 

[jaybird]

Rome wasn't "rewarded" with the Church. The Church turned the Roman Empire on its ear.
It no longer exists because of the Church.

You have GOT to study your history - and stop being so content to wallow in ignorance . . .

But when I study history it says rome fell in 400AD. But it's a bit more complicated. The west fell 400, the east went to about 1200 while in between the church split (900-1000?), And then the west rose up again with charlemagne around 900.

 

[amigo de christo]

has anyone seen a lady named spurgeons girl . I have not seen her here on the forum as of late .

 

[jaybird]

has anyone seen a lady named spurgeons girl . I have not seen her here on the forum as of late .

Haven't seen her amigo. What's your thoughts on purgatory? Or maybe the crusades since me and BOL have derailed this thread way out into left field.

 

[Taken]

Purgatory and Praying to Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective-

Praying TO saints is not an acceptable Teaching of Scriptural Teaching.