purgatory

[Wakka]

(kriss;30678)
The way I see it in scripture is that they (the catholic believe) are mixing two differentideas in scripture to come up with ine doctrine that I dont aligning rightThere is a Gulf (this may be what they are calling purgatory) Luke 16:26 that seems to imply holding place of the deceasedBut the cleansing /teaching they speak of happens here on earth during the milliuem(1000 years) after Christ returns and those that are desrving of a second chance will be taught then they are tested when Satan is again released for a short time.Now from here on the way I understand this is When this happens and these second chancers are tested but there will be no Grace they will be judged on their works alone.then comes the white throne Judgement where all are judged and this is where everyones works come into play as we are judged here on the whole of our faith and works
Oh man. How long will this be? 1,000 years of running away from sin. This life with grace is hard enough.

 

[Jordan]

(DrBubbaLove;31918)
Hello, throw my Catholic 2 pennies in,Just a clarification in case someone misunderstood, any person in Purgatory is going to Heaven. People destined for Hell do not go through a cleansing process; they do not go through Purgatory. No shower needed to jump in that pool.So no matter what else it might be or not be, Purgatory is not a second chance.
Purgatory is 100% unbiblical. The word PURGATORY does not exist in the bible.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[Letsgofishing]

well neither does the word trinity and thats definitley in the bible.to see biblical evidence look at the first post Jag. ( even if I don't totally agree with the evidence there.)

 

[Jordan]

(Letsgofishing;31928)
well neither does the word trinity and thats definitley in the bible.to see biblical evidence look at the first post Jag. ( even if I don't totally agree with the evidence there.)
That is the reason why I called it GODHEAD because we know Christ is GOD Himself.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(thesuperjag;31921)
Purgatory is 100% unbiblical. The word PURGATORY does not exist in the bible.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
Thanks Jag, you are correct the word purgatory is not in scripture. But then neither is Trinity or communion or Sunday School or altar call or a sinners prayer or a context of the Bible or an order of worship or feasts to be observed or an understanding of the Nature of God or the Nature of Christ or steps to enter the Church or ....etc. Yet, as was posted earlier in regards to purgatory, it is a concept alluded to in scripture. That you do not believe in Purgatory or that scriptures allude to it, we accept. We obviously reject that the absence of the word "Purgatory" in scripture makes it unbiblical. The phrase "age of consent" is not in the Bible, yet many people that would make a "word" claim against Purgatory accept that "age of consent" is a biblical concept. I do not think something being explicit in the Bible is a good measure of what we should or should not believe. While one could claim we as Catholics have more traditions and doctrines that are not so explicit in the Bible as say “Jesus is Risen”, no group of Christians is totally without such beliefs.

 

[Mikey]

I understand waiting in a place after you die before judgment. The part about being purified in this place seems wrong though. Aren't we made clean by giving our lives to Jesus? Does God not see us as saints, no longer sinners? If purgatory is real, then what about people that will be taken to heaven before they die? It seems to support purgatory you have to use you imagination a bit.

 

[Jordan]

The doctrine PURGEATORY is completely unbiblical.The doctrine PURGEATORY ignores this scripture.I John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.P.S. In fact the word purgeatory is not in the bible.

 

[His By Grace]

Hey, guys. This is some interesting conversation. I love, love, love it. Ryan I really enjoyed your post. It helped me to better understand what Catholics believe about purgatory. I have been talking with a friend at work about the Lord. She is so sweet and a Catholic. We were discussing prayer and she said something about this. I knew a general idea of what it was, but the in-depth explanation makes more sense. Don't get me wrong. I don't believe in it. There are a number of scriptures to go with why I don't. In 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul is discussing life and death, and he basically says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Also, in 1 Corinthians Ch. 15, there is a detailed explanation of how we will be raised as incorruptible after death-in the twinkling of an eye! Now, that's fast! I realize that the judgement plays a factor in all of this. Some of this is confusing. But, remember the story of Lazarus also. This was not called a parable, so it was likely true. The rich man looked up to see Lazarus in heaven and he was in hell. It didn't speak of there being a waiting period. The scripture says he was carried away into Abraham's bosom; Luke Ch.16:19-31. If we could purify ourselves, Christ had no need to come and be sin for us. (2 Cor. 5:21) I truly believe at the point of our death, we are escorted by the Holy Angels into His presence and the Father sees us through the shed blood of Christ and says,"Your debt is paid! I see no stain upon you. You're mine!" Thank you , Jesus! I get Holy Ghost goose bumps when I think of this.:angel10:

 

[Jon-Marc]

(DrBubbaLove;31960)
We obviously reject that the absence of the word "Purgatory" in scripture makes it unbiblical.
I don't reject "purgatory" because of it not being in the Bible. I reject it because it's not real. When a person dies, their soul or whatever you want to call it goes to heaven if they are born again, or to hell if they are not. Since works cannot save us, a temporary middle ground where we earn our way into heaven is totally unscriptural.

 

[Jordan]

(Jon-Marc;32691)
(DeBubbaLove;31960)
I don't reject "purgatory" because of it not being in the Bible. I reject it because it's not real. When a person dies, their soul or whatever you want to call it goes to heaven if they are born again, or to hell if they are not. Since works cannot save us, a temporary middle ground where we earn our way into heaven is totally unscriptural.
I don't reject "purgatory" because of it not being in the Bible. I reject it because it's not real. When a person dies, their soul or whatever you want to call it goes to heaven if they are born again, or to hell if they are not. Since works cannot save us, a temporary middle ground where we earn our way into heaven is totally unscriptural.When we die in the flesh, He does not judge a single soul at all, until it is time to be judged at Judgement Day. (Revelation 20:11)For if He judge a soul before the appointed time. then verily, verily I say unto thee, then it is Judgement Day everyday, (which is completely unbiblical)JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(Jon-Marc;32691)
I don't reject "purgatory" because of it not being in the Bible. I reject it because it's not real. When a person dies, their soul or whatever you want to call it goes to heaven if they are born again, or to hell if they are not. Since works cannot save us, a temporary middle ground where we earn our way into heaven is totally unscriptural.
The conclusion would be true if it were true that Purgatory represents what you claim it does. But as explained, our belief in Purgatory is not a "middle ground", nor are people there earning anything. One cannot earn what is already attained. People in Purgatory are going through it to Heaven. They cannot go from Purgatory to Hell, nor do they stay in Purgatory until "they get it right". It is not a second chance. Earning Heaven in Purgatory implies they may not make it or at least could not make it without some effort on their part. It is a process of cleansing, not a work of a person. God is doing the work of cleaning, not the person.In order to refute something, a logical argument must assume/present premises that are true. A false premise means the conclusion (Purgatory is unscriptual) does not follow from that premise. Claiming the Catholic Purgatory represents a work or earning of Heaven is false, it is not what the Church teaches. Therefore you have not made a case that Purgatory is unscriptual. Not that you couldn't, just that this one fails because the premise is false.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If one believes in a soul (and we presume most here do) there are several difficulites here with taking any strong position with exactly what happens to our souls when we die. By exactly I do not mean where one ends up, but how, when and if "when" can be understood in the afterlife what happens until "then".1) As a human we experience time, which is really just a way of measuring change. But we experience it with our body. We feel it, see it and sense it. Remove the body and by what means can we experience time or change?Could it be possible that such a state involves a seamless flow from death to judgement while at the same time an awareness or an instantanous knowledge of all events continuing beyond one's earthly life (some would even say prior to). In that view there is no violation of the notion death first and then 'later' judgement for all. From an earthly time view it is still "later". It is just from the soul of the departed persective, it all occurs at once. IOW Everyone gets there at the same "earthly" time/moment. Judgement still occurs for all at the same time. We would agree that judgement requires ressurection, the re-uniting of our soul with our body. And because the body is "material", time then has meaning, so ressurrection must represent something that occurs once in "time" for all mankind, and at the same time. But the one ressurrection of all does not address/explain what happens to the soul of the dead "until" then.Even in the concept or any variation of soul sleep, awareness of time/change ceases until one is awakened and all are finally judged together. So from the sleeping soul's perspective, he or she has "just died" and is "now" awake at judgement (no "time" has passed). The concept is therefore the same even in the soul sleeping explanation.2) We have no direct experience of the afterlife. Only analogy and maybe maybe glimpses from Saints or prophets. None from ourselves alone.3) Most of what we can say are negatives, we know what the afterlife is not.So saying we know it will happen like this, then this and then finally this in a linear time sense is not really possible. Death and judgement are certain.

 

[amadeus]

Just a slight correction here with regard to the word "communion" not being in the Bible:"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" I Cor 10:16"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" II Cor 6:14"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." II Cor 13:14No offense is intended here, but we should try to be more careful what we say..LOL(DrBubbaLove;31960)
Thanks Jag, you are correct the word purgatory is not in scripture. But then neither is Trinity or communion or Sunday School or altar call or a sinners prayer or a context of the Bible or an order of worship or feasts to be observed or an understanding of the Nature of God or the Nature of Christ or steps to enter the Church or ....etc. Yet, as was posted earlier in regards to purgatory, it is a concept alluded to in scripture. That you do not believe in Purgatory or that scriptures allude to it, we accept. We obviously reject that the absence of the word "Purgatory" in scripture makes it unbiblical. The phrase "age of consent" is not in the Bible, yet many people that would make a "word" claim against Purgatory accept that "age of consent" is a biblical concept. I do not think something being explicit in the Bible is a good measure of what we should or should not believe. While one could claim we as Catholics have more traditions and doctrines that are not so explicit in the Bible as say “Jesus is Risen”, no group of Christians is totally without such beliefs.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(amadeus;32949)
Just a slight correction here with regard to the word "communion" not being in the Bible:"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" I Cor 10:16"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" II Cor 6:14"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." II Cor 13:14No offense is intended here, but we should try to be more careful what we say..LOL
LOL, over spoke. None taken. Thanks. In that case and without thinking, was thinking more along the line of the actual practice than the word. As a former protestor can tell you the communion spoken of here in Cor and what we all practice varies tremendously in both form and meaning. BTW the longest continous discourse quoted of Jesus is on the Bread of Life and Cup of His Blood, so for a Catholic my mistake was much bigger than a word.Regardless of my mistake, the point is still that much of what we all do is not explicit in scripture. So the argument of "that is not scriptural" (for purgatory or anything) is nothing more than saying I don't believe that or I don't believe that scripture supports it or I don't think that is what scripture means. IOW it is a weak arguement.