Purity: Shema is the Backbone of OT AND NT, Agree?

[nothead]

Purity and nothead,

So then if God is not the #1, you must understand the meaning of one then.

One "ecad" as a compound unity...
Not one "yahid" singular or unique...

Simple refusal to admit the plain truth does not disprove the truth. Your entire basis is overthrown in Shem'a. Again the wording supports the Trinitarian view, otherwise it would have never been changed. If Jewish rabbis recognized this and agreed to change the sacred scriptures, something that goes against their entire view of the scriptures, then your limited understanding of the Hebrew language is void. This also invalidates Purity's point of history and nothead's point of Peshat Law. The wording throughout the scriptures plainly describe God as plural with "ehacd" seen as a compound unity.

You have no leg to stand on in this discussion. The Jewish rabbis saw that, thats why they desecrated the holy scriptures.

God is a triune God. Father, Son, HolySpirit.

I quote Strongs which mentions naught ANY "compound unity" in the dominant meanings one through EIGHT, and you say this? What is wrong with you?

Purity and nothead,

So then if God is not the #1, you must understand the meaning of one then.

One "ecad" as a compound unity...
Not one "yahid" singular or unique...

Simple refusal to admit the plain truth does not disprove the truth. Your entire basis is overthrown in Shem'a. Again the wording supports the Trinitarian view, otherwise it would have never been changed. If Jewish rabbis recognized this and agreed to change the sacred scriptures, something that goes against their entire view of the scriptures, then your limited understanding of the Hebrew language is void. This also invalidates Purity's point of history and nothead's point of Peshat Law. The wording throughout the scriptures plainly describe God as plural with "ehacd" seen as a compound unity.

You have no leg to stand on in this discussion. The Jewish rabbis saw that, thats why they desecrated the holy scriptures.

God is a triune God. Father, Son, HolySpirit.

Name them. Most will be cherry picked. I doubt more than the fingers of one hand. Echad has 845 uses in the Bible. 5 or less are a compound unity.

If this post doesn't set you to crying your momma even if she be in the grave I do not know what will convince you or your piddly faith buds.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/20082-purity-shema-is-the-backbone-of-ot-and-nt-agree/?p=226183
Would you like me to list all the verses where Echad is clearly #1 ?

You can refer to post #69

If you look at the translation (which is what we are discussing) it is translated as "one" currently in the Shemah. It is the meaning of "echad" the Hebrew rabbis understand, as well as the renowned PHD. Ginsburg.

Are you a Hebrew language scholar?

259. אֶחָד echad (25c); a prim. card. number; one:—151,450*(1), 41,500*(2), 61*(1), 61,000*(1), 621*(2), 721*(1), alike(1), all at once(1), alone(2), altogether(1), another(23), another into one(1), any(15), any one(2), any*(1), anyone*(1), apiece(1), certain(11), certain man(1), each(48), each one(4), each other(1), each*(4), eleven*(9), eleventh*(4), every(1), everyone(1), few(3), first(38), forty-first*(1), forty-one*(4), numbered(1), once(14), once*(4), one(586), one and on another(1), one and the other(2), one at the other(1), one can him who(1), one the other(1), one to another(1), one will to another(1), one another(4), one thing(2), one thing to another(1), one-tenth(1), one-tenth for each(1), only(2), other(27), other was one(1), outermost*(1), same(25), same one(1), single(15), some(2), thirty-first*(1), thirty-one*(3), together(3), twenty-first*(4), twenty-one*(4), uniformly*(2), unique(4), unison(1), unit(4), united(1), whom(1).
Gosh can you read and comprehend your own reference, sir?

Ok so we are back on the same page; singing from the same hymn sheet?

God is NOT a triune god, but a “unipersonal” Being Who is ONE person alone.

Great - I am sure everyone present understands this now? Floyd? Justaname? Old Jack?

Lets hope so.

More to come on the Shema...but first I must go and take some rubbish to the tip so my wife does not think I have been discussing the Shema all day

God bless.

I sing your song, dude. Don't make me whistle, since it blows everyone's ears out. My wife pinches my pursed lips, HARD.

 

[shturt678]

I quote Strongs which mentions naught ANY "compound unity" in the dominant meanings one through EIGHT, and you say this? What is wrong with you?



Name them. Most will be cherry picked. I doubt more than the fingers of one hand. Echad has 845 uses in the Bible. 5 or less are a compound unity.

If this post doesn't set you to crying your momma even if she be in the grave I do not know what will convince you or your piddly faith buds.




259. אֶחָד echad (25c); a prim. card. number; one:—151,450*(1), 41,500*(2), 61*(1), 61,000*(1), 621*(2), 721*(1), alike(1), all at once(1), alone(2), altogether(1), another(23), another into one(1), any(15), any one(2), any*(1), anyone*(1), apiece(1), certain(11), certain man(1), each(48), each one(4), each other(1), each*(4), eleven*(9), eleventh*(4), every(1), everyone(1), few(3), first(38), forty-first*(1), forty-one*(4), numbered(1), once(14), once*(4), one(586), one and on another(1), one and the other(2), one at the other(1), one can him who(1), one the other(1), one to another(1), one will to another(1), one another(4), one thing(2), one thing to another(1), one-tenth(1), one-tenth for each(1), only(2), other(27), other was one(1), outermost*(1), same(25), same one(1), single(15), some(2), thirty-first*(1), thirty-one*(3), together(3), twenty-first*(4), twenty-one*(4), uniformly*(2), unique(4), unison(1), unit(4), united(1), whom(1).
Gosh can you read and comprehend your own reference, sir?



I sing your song, dude. Don't make me whistle, since it blows everyone's ears out. My wife pinches my pursed lips, HARD.

Thank you for caring again!

Let's look at the simplicity of the gospel together again.

Deut.6:4, "...Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." The does not mean Jehovah is one God, Jehovah alone for in that case Jehovah lebaddo would be used instead of Jehovah Echad; still less Jehovah our God, namely, Jehovah is one. Jehovah echad together sijmply form the predicate of the sentence. The idea is not, Jehovah our God is one (the only) God, but one (or the only) Jehovah:" not in this sense, however, that He has not adopted one mode of revelation or appearance here and another there, but one mode only, viz. the revelation which Israel had received.

Hence what is predicated here of Jehovah (Jehovah one) does not relate to the unity of God, but SIMPLY states that it is to Him alone that the name Jehovah rightfully belongs, that He is teh one absolute God, to whom or other Elohim can be compared.

Old Jack,

One cannot help but agape the simplicity of the Gospel.

 

[nothead]

I quote Strongs which mentions naught ANY "compound unity" in the dominant meanings one through EIGHT, and you say this? What is wrong with you?


Name them. Most will be cherry picked. I doubt more than the fingers of one hand. Echad has 845 uses in the Bible. 5 or less are a compound unity.

If this post doesn't set you to crying your momma even if she be in the grave I do not know what will convince you or your piddly faith buds.




259. אֶחָד echad (25c); a prim. card. number; one:—151,450*(1), 41,500*(2), 61*(1), 61,000*(1), 621*(2), 721*(1), alike(1), all at once(1), alone(2), altogether(1), another(23), another into one(1), any(15), any one(2), any*(1), anyone*(1), apiece(1), certain(11), certain man(1), each(48), each one(4), each other(1), each*(4), eleven*(9), eleventh*(4), every(1), everyone(1), few(3), first(38), forty-first*(1), forty-one*(4), numbered(1), once(14), once*(4), one(586), one and on another(1), one and the other(2), one at the other(1), one can him who(1), one the other(1), one to another(1), one will to another(1), one another(4), one thing(2), one thing to another(1), one-tenth(1), one-tenth for each(1), only(2), other(27), other was one(1), outermost*(1), same(25), same one(1), single(15), some(2), thirty-first*(1), thirty-one*(3), together(3), twenty-first*(4), twenty-one*(4), uniformly*(2), unique(4), unison(1), unit(4), united(1), whom(1).
Gosh can you read and comprehend your own reference, sir?



I sing your song, dude. Don't make me whistle, since it blows everyone's ears out. My wife pinches my pursed lips, HARD.

Thank you for caring again!

Let's look at the simplicity of the gospel together again.

Deut.6:4, "...Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." The does not mean Jehovah is one God, Jehovah alone for in that case Jehovah lebaddo would be used instead of Jehovah Echad; still less Jehovah our God, namely, Jehovah is one. Jehovah echad together sijmply form the predicate of the sentence. The idea is not, Jehovah our God is one (the only) God, but one (or the only) Jehovah:" not in this sense, however, that He has not adopted one mode of revelation or appearance here and another there, but one mode only, viz. the revelation which Israel had received.

Hence what is predicated here of Jehovah (Jehovah one) does not relate to the unity of God, but SIMPLY states that it is to Him alone that the name Jehovah rightfully belongs, that He is teh one absolute God, to whom or other Elohim can be compared.

Old Jack,

One cannot help but agape the simplicity of the Gospel.

What in Sam Hill is LABBADO? Libido? Limundo? Lemon Theology? WHAT?

God said he is numerically One. What is the problem here? No one GETSIT? Spank youselves. Flaggelantes. Remember them?

Echad means the numerical one 9.9 times out of ten by STrong the TRINitarian. Get this through your punkin heads. NUMBER one.

 

[justaname]

If I were to name all the times God refers to Himself as plural the list would be too long...

I can start though by giving the first book where He does...Genesis. Then I can give the last book He does...Revelation.

Let Us make him in Our image...
Elohim
echad

Interesting thing is if you actually read the Bible for what it says it actually agrees with Christianity...go figure.

 

[Purity]

If I were to name all the times God refers to Himself as plural the list would be too long...

I can start though by giving the first book where He does...Genesis. Then I can give the last book He does...Revelation.

Let Us make him in Our image...
Elohim
echad

Interesting thing is if you actually read the Bible for what it says it actually agrees with Christianity...go figure.

Ok lets apply your reasoning first to Jesus becuase it is he that you say is God.

Jesus has many titles, identifying aspects of his identity, mission and status.

I have listed some below:

 Messiah (Acts 3:20)
 Lord (John 13:13)
 Saviour (Acts 13:23)
 King of Kings (Revelation 17:14)
 Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
 Immanuel; “God with us” (Matthew 1:18‐23)
 Last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45)
 Lamb of God (John 1:29)
 Word of God (Revelation 19:13)
 Firstborn from among the dead (Colossians 1:18)
 Author of life (Acts 3:15)
 Chief shepherd (1 Peter 5:4)
 Light of the world (John 8:12)
 First and last (Revelation 1:19)
 Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15)

There is no suggestion here that Jesus "is" God!

Isn't this precisely what you would expect of the Father’s own Son?

1. Elevated to His side
2. Mediating on our behalf.

How do you view Jesus prior to his resurrection;

1. a mortal man.
2. made like us in every way

What happened at his resurrection?

1. his body was perfected
2. made immortal by God.

Jesus has been glorified and exalted to the extant not previously held as you suggest - this would be foolishness and a mockery of Gods victory in His Son.

If I were to name all the times God refers to Himself as plural the list would be too long...

I can start though by giving the first book where He does...Genesis. Then I can give the last book He does...Revelation.

Let Us make him in Our image...
Elohim
echad

Interesting thing is if you actually read the Bible for what it says it actually agrees with Christianity...go figure.

Now consider the names and titles of mere sinful mortals.

 Elijah: “Yahweh is God”", or “Yahweh my God”
 Adoni‐zedek: “justice of the Lord”
 Jehezekel: “strength of God”
 Zephaniah: “the Lord is my secret”
 Bithiah: “daughter of the Lord”
 Isaiah: “salvation of the Lord”
 Ishmael: “God that hears”

Are you to suggest Elijah is some part of the Godhead because his name includes Yahweh?

Justaname - remember the lesson of God manifestation which I taught you? Keeps coming up doesn't it?

The Messianic name of “Immanuel” was prophetic, pointing forward to the redeeming work that God would achieve through Jesus, whose name means “Yah shall save.”

If only the pumpkins heads could reason correctly this discussion would be finished a long time ago.

 

[justaname]

Ok lets apply your reasoning first to Jesus becuase it is he that you say is God.

Jesus has many titles, identifying aspects of his identity, mission and status.

I have listed some below:

 Messiah (Acts 3:20)
 Lord (John 13:13)
 Saviour (Acts 13:23)
 King of Kings (Revelation 17:14)
 Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
 Immanuel; “God with us” (Matthew 1:18‐23)
 Last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45)
 Lamb of God (John 1:29)
 Word of God (Revelation 19:13)
 Firstborn from among the dead (Colossians 1:18)
 Author of life (Acts 3:15)
 Chief shepherd (1 Peter 5:4)
 Light of the world (John 8:12)
 First and last (Revelation 1:19)
 Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15)

There is no suggestion here that Jesus "is" God!

Isn't this precisely what you would expect of the Father’s own Son?

1. Elevated to His side
2. Mediating on our behalf.

How do you view Jesus prior to his resurrection;

1. a mortal man.
2. made like us in every way

What happened at his resurrection?

1. his body was perfected
2. made immortal by God.

Jesus has been glorified and exalted to the extant not previously held as you suggest - this would be foolishness and a mockery of Gods victory in His Son.

Now consider the names and titles of mere sinful mortals.

 Elijah: “Yahweh is God”", or “Yahweh my God”
 Adoni‐zedek: “justice of the Lord”
 Jehezekel: “strength of God”
 Zephaniah: “the Lord is my secret”
 Bithiah: “daughter of the Lord”
 Isaiah: “salvation of the Lord”
 Ishmael: “God that hears”

Are you to suggest Elijah is some part of the Godhead because his name includes Yahweh?

Justaname - remember the lesson of God manifestation which I taught you? Keeps coming up doesn't it?

The Messianic name of “Immanuel” was prophetic, pointing forward to the redeeming work that God would achieve through Jesus, whose name means “Yah shall save.”

If only the pumpkins heads could reason correctly this discussion would be finished a long time ago.

This entire post says absolutely nothing against the divinity of Christ.

 

[Purity]

This entire post says absolutely nothing against the divinity of Christ.

You are right, but it stands against him being Deity

 

[justaname]

You are right, but it stands against him being Deity

No it only speaks of titles, nothing more.

Look at the titles of Jesus, they make reference to Jesus' divinity, whereas the other men and women speak of God's divinity or attributes.

 

[Purity]

Look at the titles of Jesus, they make reference to Jesus' divinity, whereas the other men and women speak of God's divinity or attributes.

So now you are teaching that one of Jesus' titles (Immanuel) doesn't speak of Gods attribute's?

All people God has given names to including Jesus, manifests His purpose alone.

Isaiah  “salvation of the Yahweh”
Jesus "Yahweh is salvation"

The point being made is a name does not provide you with an argument for a triune god. It actually speaks more to an all powerful God how named His Son and not the other way around.

Purity

 

[nothead]

So now you are teaching that one of Jesus' titles (Immanuel) doesn't speak of Gods attribute's?

All people God has given names to including Jesus, manifests His purpose alone.

Isaiah  “salvation of the Yahweh”
Jesus "Yahweh is salvation"

The point being made is a name does not provide you with an argument for a triune god. It actually speaks more to an all powerful God how named His Son and not the other way around.

Purity

Shared titles is their best argument for the Deity of Jesus since he never said he was God. Now Thomas MIGHT have said so, but Elohim Theology rather indicates Thomas was uttering 'elohim!"

The closest he came was the apparent statement "I and the Father are one." But the HEN in Jn 10 is the same HEN with believers in Jn 17 that they may be 'one' as we are 'one.' And the EN prepositions too indicate a unity of spirit rather than the EIS of the Shema.

 

[justaname]

Shared titles is their best argument for the Deity of Jesus since he never said he was God. Now Thomas MIGHT have said so, but Elohim Theology rather indicates Thomas was uttering 'elohim!"

The closest he came was the apparent statement "I and the Father are one." But the HEN in Jn 10 is the same HEN with believers in Jn 17 that they may be 'one' as we are 'one.' And the EN prepositions too indicate a unity of spirit rather than the EIS of the Shema.

Yeah this is completely false...

58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.


The Jews recognized what Jesus was saying here, this is why they were going to stone Him.

A little added bonus for the heresy propagators...


5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We know God does not share His glory (Isaiah 42:8), also from this we know that Jesus was preexistent.

Jesus Messiah is YHWH Elohim...
Isaiah 40:3

 

[Purity]

Yeah this is completely false...

58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

A little added bonus for the heresy propagators...

He/She that hath ears let em hear.

Rom 1:2 This gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh nature.

So here is the challenge Justaname - we know the Gospel of Jesus was preached to Abraham - yeah? Gal 3:8

Where is Jesus prophesied "before Abraham was born I am?"

Take us to a Scripture which you feel speaks of a promised Son?

But before Abraham?

 

[justaname]

He/She that hath ears let em hear.

Rom 1:2 This gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh nature.

So here is the challenge Justaname - we know the Gospel of Jesus was preached to Abraham - yeah? Gal 3:8

Where is Jesus prophesied "before Abraham was born I am?"

Take us to a Scripture which you feel speaks of a promised Son?

But before Abraham?

Your correlation of the mystery and the gospel is not in conjunction with the text I presented. Nice try but sorry.

Your attempt fails also in the light of the second text I present where Jesus speaks of His preexistence.

 

[shturt678]

Yeah this is completely false...

58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.


The Jews recognized what Jesus was saying here, this is why they were going to stone Him.

A little added bonus for the heresy propagators...


5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We know God does not share His glory (Isaiah 42:8), also from this we know that Jesus was preexistent.

Jesus Messiah is YHWH Elohim...
Isaiah 40:3


One cannot help but to agape Isaiah's passages that explain Jesus = God even before the beginning of all.

Good job!

Old agaping Jack

 

[Purity]

Your correlation of the mystery and the gospel is not in conjunction with the text I presented. Nice try but sorry.

Your attempt fails also in the light of the second text I present where Jesus speaks of His preexistence.

Ha...you don't see it do you?
You couldn't take me to a passage which Gal 3:8 is speaking too - are you :unsure: ?
My understanding is beautiful and complete ^_^
Basking in the radiance of Gods Word....its sublime to see your resistance in a failed defence of a triune god.
You really should sit next to me and behold the wonder of ignorance and the lengths it will go to in defence of church dogmas.
I am feeling liberated; unshackled from the chains which currently hold you back from going into the Word and discovering the meaning of Gal 3:8 cp John 8:58

Especially when Jesus said prior to this:

"Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see my day, and he saw it and was glad"

Ah prophecy and its power!

 

[justaname]

Ha...you don't see it do you?
You couldn't take me to a passage which Gal 3:8 is speaking too - are you :unsure: ?
My understanding is beautiful and complete ^_^
Basking in the radiance of Gods Word....its sublime to see your resistance in a failed defence of a triune god.
You really should sit next to me and behold the wonder of ignorance and the lengths it will go to in defence of church dogmas.
I am feeling liberated; unshackled from the chains which currently hold you back from going into the Word and discovering the meaning of Gal 3:8 cp John 8:58

Especially when Jesus said prior to this:

"Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see my day, and he saw it and was glad"

Ah prophecy and its power!

Actually my intent in presenting this passage is to show again how Jesus refers to Himself as God, not to jump through all your hoops you use in an attempt to misdirect the subject.

Again nice try, but I am not fooled by your tactics.

 

[Purity]

Actually my intent in presenting this passage is to show again how Jesus refers to Himself as God, not to jump through all your hoops you use in an attempt to misdirect the subject.

Again nice try, but I am not fooled by your tactics.

No tactics justaname - The Word wants you to discover the meaning of Gal 3:8 cp John 8:57,58

Your reluctance to go in search of truth is noted. Actually its more disturbing your admission above that you would only do so if it held a Trinitarian answer...that's why you resist.

I get the feeling you have been here before and you chose unwisely last time - what will it be this time?

 

[justaname]

No tactics justaname - The Word wants you to discover the meaning of Gal 3:8 cp John 8:57,58

Your reluctance to go in search of truth is noted. Actually its more disturbing your admission above that you would only do so if it held a Trinitarian answer...that's why you resist.

I get the feeling you have been here before and you chose unwisely last time - what will it be this time?

Again you attempt to divert the topic by making this about me as opposed to our discussion.

You have no superior revelation of scripture as you like to tout.

5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We know God does not share His glory (Isaiah 42:8), also from this we know that Jesus was preexistent.

Jesus Messiah is YHWH Elohim...
Isaiah 40:3

 

[Purity]

Again you attempt to divert the topic by making this about me as opposed to our discussion.

You have no superior revelation of scripture as you like to tout.

5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We know God does not share His glory (Isaiah 42:8), also from this we know that Jesus was preexistent.

Jesus Messiah is YHWH Elohim...
Isaiah 40:3

Justaname,

Just checking you understand what you are saying here: "We know God does not share His glory " and by using Isa 42:8 where God is speaking to an ungodly audience (idol worshippers). God is speaking to those who might think the "glory" may be attributed to Baal. GOD WILL NOT SHARE HIS GLORY WITH IDOLS!!!!! Baal prophets might make false claims about Baal’s power, or people like Rabshakeh might claim that the gods of his foreign army have given them victory in war.

This has nothing to with God being glorified through Jesus and the saints.

[SIZE=80%]John 17:22 [/SIZE]The glory you (Yahweh) gave to me (Jesus) I have given to them (Disciples), that they may be one just as we are one

You are not suggesting that the disciples when glorified will have pre-existed also?

Lessons:

1. Don't use a verse if you don't know the context and meaning
2. Don't assume an "inference" if it cannot be applied to other high context passages.

 

[shturt678]

Justaname,

Just checking you understand what you are saying here: "We know God does not share His glory " and by using Isa 42:8 where God is speaking to an ungodly audience (idol worshippers). God is speaking to those who might think the "glory" may be attributed to Baal. GOD WILL NOT SHARE HIS GLORY WITH IDOLS!!!!! Baal prophets might make false claims about Baal’s power, or people like Rabshakeh might claim that the gods of his foreign army have given them victory in war.

This has nothing to with God being glorified through Jesus and the saints.

[SIZE=80%]John 17:22 [/SIZE]The glory you (Yahweh) gave to me (Jesus) I have given to them (Disciples), that they may be one just as we are one

You are not suggesting that the disciples when glorified will have pre-existed also?

Lessons:

1. Don't use a verse if you don't know the context and meaning
2. Don't assume an "inference" if it cannot be applied to other high context passages.

Thank you for caring!

Always have agaped the old Isaiah chapter 40-66, eg, Isa.42:1-4, Have used August Pieper's Jesaias II., 116, etc. Commentary for decades with success. My point: Matt.3:16, after the description of Christ's relation to His Sender we learn about His equipment; this is sent down on Him to enable His human nature to do its great part. HERE THE ENTIRE TRINITY APPEARS IN WORKING OUT OUR REDEMPTION.

Only putting in a 'plug' our God-man Lord Jesus Christ, and the Trinity.

Old Jack, ie, not that He needs any 'plug.'