Thank you for caring, and your response!Purity said:
The Godman Jesus was even slain before the foundartion of the world, ie, preexistent exponentially!
Old, barely existing Jack, ie, age thing.
Purity: Shema is the Backbone of OT AND NT, Agree?
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The Godman Jesus was even slain before the foundartion of the world, ie, preexistent exponentially!
Old, barely existing Jack, ie, age thing.
You did not answer his question Jack.shturt678 said:
Pre-existent, and pre-existent exponentially are the same thing. All ideal will is pre-existent exponentially. Some of us are written in the Book of Life pre-existently, and exponentially so.
All saints were slated to do great things for God, pre-existently. This is the Jewish world-view.
nothead said:
When the solution is simple, God already answered the question. Thank you again for your response and caring!nothead said:
Jn.1:14, the Word became flesh, ie, I wonder who the Word was, is, and will be? Could it be the Pre-existent Logos? Something about the eternal Logos became flesh. One cannot help but agape the ol' Nicene Creed.
Old existent for awhile longer Jack
shturt678 said:
Yeah, it was the PRE-EXISTENT Logos. God uttered "Jesus" finally in v. 14 and there he was, just as God uttered LIGHT in the Beginning and there it was.
Whoo hoo. Nothead must be a genius. No, he only uses the same defn of LOGOS which John used over 30 times in John. What a man or God SAID.
Thank you again for your patiance!nothead said:
You think you're sharp, wait to you meet my big brother, the Godman Jesus. All had a beginning, "became," egeneto, was created; NOT THE LOGOS. Jn.1:1, "was" in eternal existence, waaaaaaay before you were even thought of - you got it!
This - may we call it - timeless en, "was" in John's first sentence utterly refutes the doctrine of my friend nothead. The bottom line:
The eternity of the LOGOS is co-equal with that of the Father.
Old 'naughty' Jack
shturt678 said:
Not exactly. Theoretically, the logos was with the Father since before the beginning of Creation, since it is in fact the very expression of His Will. When THOUGHT it becomes at, toward, to, or face-to-face with God. When UTTERED, it becomes manifest. Whoo hoo! Nothead must be a genius...
...no, he only uses the main definition of LOGOS which every other Jewish person knew in the day. What day? The day of Jesus, amen.
Nice post Nothead - here is where the rubber meets the road.
1. The Trinitarian approaches the Bible from external documentation which they must force upon the Word.
2. The Bible contains the key to unlocking its treasures through understanding God's name - go figure! God Manifestation "I will be whom I will be"
The Trinitarian is wasting their time using point 1 until they are willing to accept point 2 is where the truth is found.
P.
Thank you for your response!nothead said:
Jn.1:1, "the Word," ie, this is "the only-begotrton Son which is in the bosom of the Father," v.18 of course. "The Logos" is the title for Christthat is peculiar to John, and is used by him alone. In general this title resembles many others, some of them being used also by Christ Himself, such as Light, Life, Way, Truth, and etc.
Again, the Logos is the final and absolute revelation of God embodied in God's own Son, the Godman Jesus Christ. Christ is the Logos because in Him all the purposes, plans, and promises of God are brought to a final focus and all absolute realization, ie, the Logos long before He became flesh.
Old Jack,
btw the rubber has just met the road
Or maybe the Logos is used exactly the same way John uses it in John 30 plus OTHER times. It is eternally with God since it is the eternal ASPECT of God. That is, His expressed will.
Jesus can't HAVE the Word if he IS the Word. Equivalence is not meant here, to be that thing. As ASPECT of God and ATTRIBUTE of God, the Logos is an ADJECTIVE of God and as such cannot be God with God. Yessir. Nothead IS a genius compared to the knotheads here on this board...Jesus HAS the Word of God on his lips being IMBUED with the Holy Spirit, and IS only the Word when the Word is "Jesus." Whoo hoo. Disseminated truth of the Word for you no charge.
Normally feel a little sorry for others raising the bar another notch, however here we must with no regrets, ie, Jn.1:1, "Logos" was and is a substantive (noun), 2nd dec. of course - all Greek to me, basic, 1st semester 100 stuff. you're going to have to lower your paygrade a notch heading down towards my lowest paygrade, ie, sorry bout that one. Bringing you into basic 100 Greek, note the placement of the article in Jn.1:1c, ie, makes a big difference.nothead said:
Thank you for your response and caring again!
My end point, the eternal reciprocal relation between the Word (Logos) and God.
Old Jack
Pros ton theon: the Word AT, TO, TOWARD, WITH, or FACE-TO-FACE with God.shturt678 said:
This is not a reciprocal relationship. This is the Logos reflected from God and looking back as REFLECTION from God to us. Once uttered, this Word is REALITY.
Has been. Has been done. Will be done even in the has been done sense. Since it was THOUGHT. Done deal, yet not yet manifest.
Done deal in that no other deal but this deal will be done. GIVE me the glory I had with you SINCE YOU DETERMINED I would share in Your Glory OH GOD.
For I need it, the Cross is a comin' and I need all the HELP HELP HELP me Lord I can get OH GOD.
Yeah, I agree. The WORD is by itself a noun. The EXPRESSION of God's will AS METAPHOR. "JESUS" is the spoken Word which was before the foundation of the world. And "JESUS" was a reality as close to God as God's Word is...the power and expression and extension of His will. AT TO TOWARD WITH or face-to-face with God, since this is God's way of saying BE.
Buh buh buh BE. Buh buh buh BE. God's way of saying "Let it BE," and he ain't no Beetle singing.
So then John is saying this WORD was on the lips of John the Baptist. This WORD was at with to toward and face to face with God from before OUR beginning, forever as long as the Eternal God was.
And this WORD came ("Jesus") v. 14 in the flesh finally that which was expressed by messianic prophets since who knows when to the Jews, THIS has finally come to pass.
WHOO HOO!! Finally, this age, NOW!! WHOO HOO boys and girls. Babes and grown-ups!! Old ones, fat ones skinny ones smart ones not so smart ones....the WORD was finally manifest, and "JESUS" became!!
Thank you for your response!nothead said:
Sorry, 2nd semester stuff, ie, Jn.1:1c, we have a convertible proposition with the subject predicate (Colwell's Rule included) Nominative construction, with no modifier making a substracton or limitation results in Jesus = God grammatically let alone contextually and aspectually nails Jesus = God.
One cannot but agape our Lord Godman Jesus Christ,
Old not so smart Jack, however have a very smart Lord Jesus as my Savior.
Old Jack
I was just being technical, ie, ol' Colwell's Rule affirms the deity in Jn.1;1c for sure!!!
shturt678 said:
Cowbell Smowbell, Colwell can eat grass.
Whyn't I make a rule that no Trin can open his yap? Think any of you will listen? Anyone can make a rule. God backs up the righteous.
Thank you for your response and caring again!nothead said:
Wait till you hear by big Brother, Our Godman Lord Jesus Christ ring His 'sheep bell' ringing out His rule, IIPet.1:20, 21: The "Context" undoubtedly explains the "Context" resulting in Jesus = God where with the "Text" explains the "Text" does fallaciously result in Jesus = / = God.
One cannot help but to agape Jesus' 'rules.'
Old Jack, rule #1 listen to the 'sheep bell' this morning with you my brother.
[SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.shturt678 said:
[SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
No man who is not pentecostal has a RIGHT to quote this verse, even elders more elder than nothead.
Only pentecostals know in their itty bitty hearts the heart of this verse. MOVED by the Holy Spirit. In fact a voodoo African MIGHT know more how this verse is enacted and manifest in reality. Amen.
Keela hey my Lord, kowabunga, mowgli.
Or seriously, moved by the espiritu de Christo.
Thank you again for your response!nothead said:
Back to rule #1: IIPet.1:20, 21, This ruling passage does not convey the idea that this prophecy does not supply its "own interpretation." Scriptura undoubedly ex Scriptura explicanda est; in this way the Spirit interprets Scripture.
Low paygrade I.Q. stuff.
Old Jack
shturt678 said:
Sorry, Old Jack, but again only a pentecostal in general knows the pentecostal experience, which changes all things, unless he is a pentecostal and does not know it as such, the core meaning, not the traditional meaning with all trappings....
...to be reborn in the spirit is what Jesus said to Nicodemus is the ideal, and all others are the wage earners who come in late, i.e. the criminal on the cross. I mean it is possible, just not coming in the front gate...
...coming over the fence, under the bottom rail, in the back hole, whatever. Pentecostals know of what I speak.
Of course, receiving the Baptism some 30 years ago. Let me know 1) God exists, and in relationship to me 2) God wants for me to know the Joy InexpressibleFloyd said:
,
and eventually 3) the Baptism in Spirit is the HEART of Circumcision; the YONTOO to do the Shema foretold in Deut 30: "I will circumcise their hearts and they will love me unto eternal life..."
...this being the Seal of Covenant, God's own promise to us, hoping for us to GROW this relationship to the extent that it can. BE ALL THINGS to God and his son our hero of the ages who preceded us...
...this Spirit coming in the name of the Son, having been sent by the God of us, YHWH Elohim our Father. Amen.
Well; that explains!nothead said:
Floyd.
Charismatic teachings.
[SIZE=14pt]
Various Groups and Cults, have many and various teachings from the Bible, particularly the Gospels, which can seem to have veracity, especially for the vulnerable, and people under various troubles.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]What many demand is the dictation of the lives and minds of their members, who are not allowed to question the leaders "edicts and interpretations" of Scripture. They go so far as to say in some current groups, that unless the person "can perform miracles, can heal, and speaking in tongues (languages) other than the native, they are not saved"! Some years ago, this type of group, (Pentecostal, Charismatic etc.) did not make such strong claims. They were content to pronounce that "some people had not received the second blessing", called by others "the Toronto blessing", as that manifestation apparently had its origin in Toronto, which created at that time at least a two tier system within the group![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The first manifestation of this type of teaching was circa. AD 200, which continued until approx. AD 800, in the "Montanists". The current manifestation emerged in the late 1800s, under the auspices of a Mrs. McPherson, called "Pentecostals". A notable feature of these groups is often the high profile of women, in the various activities, which may run contrary to the Apostle Paul's teachings, (1Tim 2:9-15).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Many of these groups misinterpret many Scriptures to try to enforce their claims, which if the teachers concerned are knowingly Satanically controlled will have its own reward, (remembering the condemnation of the false Prophets and Priests of Israel, Deut. 18:20-22 and Jer. 23). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In Revelation 14:9-11 is the account of cognisant agents of Satan being dealt with in the Millennium Reign. This particular reference in Revelation applies to people who are knowingly worshipping and working for Satan during the Tribulation of the Jewish Nation known as "Jacob's Trouble", and those who receive his mark, and does not apply to this present Dispensation. However, it does show how seriously Almighty God eventually deals with such activity.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is incumbent on all of us who are Christians to try to understand Scripture and the Truth of it, as opposed to the many erroneous teachings, (2Tim. 2:15 and 2Tim. 3:16-17). The onus is on us as individuals not to be carried along by false teachers, and to take what is said to us, to the Bible, in sincere prayer to check the teaching that has been given. It has to be remembered also that one of the major errors of today in teaching, is to attribute one part of Scripture or another to Christians now, which may or may not be the case. That is why it is important to know the Administrations (Dispensations) of Almighty God, one such being the Acts period compared to now. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is evident on examination that the events of Acts 2 do not apply at the present time. It is also evident from careful reading of Acts 2, that the comments by Peter applied at that time to the Jews only, (see "Use and Abuse of Joel's Prophecy" now called “Joel’s Prophecy Past and Future” by Mike Penny, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]www.obt.org.ukhttp://www.obt.org.uk/[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]). At Acts 28:28 the direction of the Gospel message was changed, and turned to the Gentiles, and they became the prime object, of Almighty God's great Love and Mercy in Christ. That condition still prevails, and at the present time there is a veil over the understanding of the Jewish people, which makes it harder for them to accept Christ Jesus as Messiah, and that is due to their rejection of Jesus; and as a Nation they will not repent that rejection until the time of Zech. 12:10 "They will look upon Him who they pierced". [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is the opinion of the writers that where people are truly misled, and have not been able for one reason or another to study for themselves, that they do not fall into the condemnation of the Almighty (although the Shepherds/Teachers and Leaders probably have considerable condemnation). However, the Almighty with the help of the Holy Spirit does expect us to continue to study the Word for Truth on all subjects.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The well-known "Alpha Course" which is now widespread in the world, purports to be a lead-in to true Christianity. However, when viewing a Documentary over a number of weeks on British Television which was introduced by David Frost, there is serious doubt in the minds of the writers that this course could be considered authentic Bible teaching. In the Documentary mentioned, a part of the Alpha course was kept away from the cameras. That particular segment concerned the “endowment of the Holy Spirit”, and was characterised as that of the events in Acts 2 known as the Pentecostal Endowment; which the writers are of the strong opinion is false teaching.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]That particular event was for the Jews gathered for the Passover Festival, and was what had been promised by Jesus, for His people Israel! [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]See: [/SIZE] Alpha Courses [SIZE=medium](Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The point is that many groups, such as the above, are claiming miracles, which are unsubstantiated; unproven; and are not allowed to be openly scrutinised![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is a cunning devise of the Enemy, that the call to "salvation" in such groups is identical to that in all worthwhile and True groups, but after the person is beguiled/controlled by the group leaders, (sometimes called prophets/s,) the demands for compliance/brainwashing into "sign's following" is incessant, to the point of oppression! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Instead of being set free, as is the True Christian who takes Christ as Saviour; the person becomes a slave of the group leaders, on pain of exclusion, or worse! These groups, the growth of which is startling in the world wide context, are a real threat to the true seeker, as the "salvation" of the individual is in real doubt. Once these leaders have control of the individual’s mind, and the false "spirituality" they propagate, it takes prayerful effort by the individual to break free, because they have been trained to subdue all doubts, and to lean on their leaders in all things. The comment by our Lord in Matt. 7:22 then almost certainly applies to the leaders of those groups![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]To arrive at Truth, always remembering that God knows all our true intentions, (our hearts), we should study for ourselves from a good Bible translation. If we can find a Bible believing group we should join it, for study and worship. The group organization should allow open discussion on the Bible, and any other subject related. It should allow any genuine question on the groups teaching, principles, organization, activities etc.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The group or leaders should never demand obedience beyond normal good behaviour or manners. If claims or demands are made which do not appear to chime with reason, common-sense or the Bible, they should be challenged in open forum.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The will of the individual should never be subjected to a person or group, except in openly approved, Christian "norms and principles" which are common to the group, and posted and known prior to joining. In such a Christ centred atmosphere, growth of group and individual will flourish, and the Holy Spirit, the Comforter will be in the midst in Truth![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Some Charismatic Groups do not try to oppressively control their members, or insist on “healing” as a critical part of their belief system. They concentrate on prayer and praise of the Lord; in truth;[/SIZE] and have steady headed leaders. This is to be encouraged, but with constant wariness against infiltration of the extreme form developing; especially with unstable persons in fellowship!
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