QUESTION 1 for YOU - IF YOU BELIEVE JESUS is GOD

[Purity]

Eloquent, even poetic. And still you have failed to render an adequate explanation for the declaration by the Holy Spirit of the creation of all things in the universe of God (including the Sabbath to which He Himself declared He is Lord of) by Jesus.

Ah yes, you have mentioned a couple of times the "Lord of the Sabbath" without referencing the One who made him Lord.

What did the Master say about this ???? that's right!

Matt 12:8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

One can never know when discussing these matters if your opposition is actually listening or learning but here goes.

The "Sabbath was made for man” Mk 2:23KJV....hence why Jesus is called the Son of Man ;) ....he too had a rest to enter!

(1) God provides “corn” for man Gen 1:24, 2:16
(2) Man given “dominion” Gen 1:26
(3) This dominion exercised on the first Sabbath Gen 2:4, 8
(4) Jesus will be the Lord of the Anti-Typical Sabbath Read - Psa 8, Heb 2:6,7,8,9,10 & Heb 4:9.

“Son of Man” teaches you the representative man in Jesus Christ (fully man - like you!)

Aaron shared the shewbread with his sons Lev 24:9....kinda rings a bell does it?

Nothing here even comes close to Trinitarian doctrine - actually some would say you took yourself away from it drawing nearer to the Son of Man - a good step for a Trinitarian.

And I see all too well your misapplied, misunderstood, misapplicated, mismatched, misnomer of "God manifestation". And you are right. It is illuminating. Might I suggest you read Romans 8:8-11.

Can we get back to Hebrews 1:2 please, and Hebrews 11:3?

Your many "m's" is one way to deal with the evidence - not preferred though.

You take me to Rom 8:8 and I am left thinking

You are a Trinitarian right?

You have taken me to the Son of Man in Matt 12
You now take me to Rom 8:8 where no flesh can glory in His presence - this is by the way after we have together established Jesus was not perfect that he required redemption and justification by the Spirit and was required to crucify the very thing which restricted him access to the Most Holy.

The irony!

Rom 8:8-12 is speaking about God being manifested through Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ being manifested through his servants without which no one can be saved.

The conclusion of which Paul states - keeping in mind Jesus is the firstborn from the dead "will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit (mind) who lives in you."

Jesus' existence is one the basis of His Fathers Spirit living in him - and without this Spirit he has no existence. In fact out of Jesus' own mouth he states:

[SIZE=80%]5:26 [/SIZE]For just as the Father has life in himself, thus he has granted the Son to have life in himself, [SIZE=80%]5:27 [/SIZE]and he has granted the Son authority to execute judgment because he is the Son of Man.

1. God alone has immortality 1 Tim 6:16
2. He has given life to His Son.
3. As such and because of his obedience God (alone) has given His Son authority which he previously did not have.

Now you want to take me to Heb 1:2,3 right?

[SIZE=80%]1:3 [/SIZE]The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word,[SIZE=80%]8[/SIZE] and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

You and I know Jesus obeyed God as a perfect Son, right? Is this not to become the radiance of His Glory? You have told us his flesh was vile! So what is left? God is Spirit and in Spirit He manifests HIs character, right? So, can Jesus represent His essence? And if he did this by upholding all things which His Father had done including all creation including cleansing you from sins what is left to do but to sit down (work is finished) at the right hand side of the Most High God.

The temporal ages have been influenced around the Son from the beginning - the Promises, the covenants and prophecies all speaking of a future Son raised up out of condemned man.

Purity.

 

[RANDOR]

I say NOT only do you not have the Holy Ghost, you do not even know God.

You are another one on here that does not know they do not know. You are very disrespectful. If you
knew God you would know that and have already corrected yourself.

You go back and read all the disrespectful garbage, you have said to me. You do not see me doing that to you now do you?
You do not know the Lord.

​God hates dis-respectfulness.

So do I.

Do not fret when the Lord is willing I am going to go back over all this you all have posted on here...And not only point out but prove what you said is false and point out your out right unabated dis-respectfulness.

In the spirit realm this you have said to me is the same as calling me a liar.
It is also counted as disrespect. And this you have said to me is an accusation accusing me.
But I don't mind.

The easier they are the better I like it.

You have no clue as to what I am even talking about.

There is no such thing as God incarnate.

Someone made that up.

Jesus is not an angel. Someone made that up too.

No one born of God would say this you have said here to me.

They would have more honor and integrity and wisdom from the Spirit of God dwelling in them.

Instead of you all giving me your unproven opinions
and expecting us to believe it as if God said it.

Just tell me you will match up against me, winner takes all.

Show us your walk.

Don't tell us...SHOW US.

YOU say you have the power...SHOW US.

You say you have the Holy Ghost...SHOW US.

LET US SEE IT.

God knows you have told us enough.

lol

lol

lol

I really don't care if someone believes that Jesus is God or Jesus is the arch angel Michael.

I don't even care if they do not pray or do not go to any church or do not read the bible.

What I care about, is that they love me as Jesus loved them.

Because that is going to require they have the Spirit of God.

Ahhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooo wrong again......there is this thing called wiping your feet :0
But cha did get something right....yes we love you :)

 

[JonD]

It also says in Hebrews 1 v 6 .......and let all the angels of God worship Him.
Why would the word of God say for all the angels to worship Him when God's word tells us that worship is for God only?
This would only be true if Jesus is God! When we hear of the angels themselves tell others who go to worship them say "no, worship God only" why would they themselves then turn around and worship someone other than God!? Wouldn't they be contradicting themselves in doing so?
The only fitting thing is that they are worshipping God when they worship Jesus.
If the Bible, Gods word, says only God is to be worshipped then that is it, no ifs, no buts. If one does not believe Jesus to be God then how can one say, as yourself, they have no problems with Him being worshipped?

 

[nothead]

It also says in Hebrews 1 v 6 .......and let all the angels of God worship Him.
Why would the word of God say for all the angels to worship Him when God's word tells us that worship is for God only?
This would only be true if Jesus is God! When we hear of the angels themselves tell others who go to worship them say "no, worship God only" why would they themselves then turn around and worship someone other than God!? Wouldn't they be contradicting themselves in doing so?
The only fitting thing is that they are worshipping God when they worship Jesus.
If the Bible, Gods word, says only God is to be worshipped then that is it, no ifs, no buts. If one does not believe Jesus to be God then how can one say, as yourself, they have no problems with Him being worshipped?

On the other hand, why say "Let all the angels worship him," IF HE IS GOD?? ALL LIVING BEINGS shall worship the One True God.

And Jesus would be number TWO God if this was true. Second reason.

You shall see that all beings worship other beings in right order, sir.

 

[Mr.Bride]

I say NOT only do you not have the Holy Ghost, you do not even know God.

You are another one on here that does not know they do not know. You are very disrespectful. If you
knew God you would know that and have already corrected yourself.

You go back and read all the disrespectful garbage, you have said to me. You do not see me doing that to you now do you?
You do not know the Lord.

​God hates dis-respectfulness.

So do I.

Do not fret when the Lord is willing I am going to go back over all this you all have posted on here...And not only point out but prove what you said is false and point out your out right unabated dis-respectfulness.

In the spirit realm this you have said to me is the same as calling me a liar.
It is also counted as disrespect. And this you have said to me is an accusation accusing me.
But I don't mind.

The easier they are the better I like it.

You have no clue as to what I am even talking about.

There is no such thing as God incarnate.

Someone made that up.

Jesus is not an angel. Someone made that up too.

No one born of God would say this you have said here to me.

They would have more honor and integrity and wisdom from the Spirit of God dwelling in them.

Instead of you all giving me your unproven opinions
and expecting us to believe it as if God said it.

Just tell me you will match up against me, winner takes all.

Show us your walk.

Don't tell us...SHOW US.

YOU say you have the power...SHOW US.

You say you have the Holy Ghost...SHOW US.

LET US SEE IT.

God knows you have told us enough.

lol

lol

lol

I really don't care if someone believes that Jesus is God or Jesus is the arch angel Michael.

I don't even care if they do not pray or do not go to any church or do not read the bible.

What I care about, is that they love me as Jesus loved them.

Because that is going to require they have the Spirit of God.

I know who's using you. How do we show out walk and satisfy you?

My walk has been shown. You seen it. That's why you're having this little false-fear inducing rant. Put up or shut your mouth. And I do love you. Now if you don't love me back you better not die.

True love is correction. Take my words how you want them. They ain't mines no ways....

***Now... You say the wrong thing and you'll blaspheme the Holy Ghost. I beg of you not to test those waters. They are deep and this is not about me but about Jesus Christ.

 

[StanJ]

I have no problem with worshipping Jesus though I know he is not God...but the Son of God.

Titus 2:13
waiting for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith that through the justice of our God and Savior Jesus Christ is of equal privilege with ours:

Proper hermeneutical exegesis of the NT clearly show Jesus IS God.

It also says in Hebrews 1 v 6 .......and let all the angels of God worship Him.
Why would the word of God say for all the angels to worship Him when God's word tells us that worship is for God only?
This would only be true if Jesus is God! When we hear of the angels themselves tell others who go to worship them say "no, worship God only" why would they themselves then turn around and worship someone other than God!? Wouldn't they be contradicting themselves in doing so?
The only fitting thing is that they are worshipping God when they worship Jesus.
If the Bible, Gods word, says only God is to be worshipped then that is it, no ifs, no buts. If one does not believe Jesus to be God then how can one say, as yourself, they have no problems with Him being worshipped?

You are definitely on the right track....God IS Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[findingmyfaith1]

I know who's using you. How do we show out walk and satisfy you?

My walk has been shown. You seen it. That's why you're having this little false-fear inducing rant. Put up or shut your mouth. And I do love you. Now if you don't love me back you better not die.

True love is correction. Take my words how you want them. They ain't mines no ways....

***Now... You say the wrong thing and you'll blaspheme the Holy Ghost. I beg of you not to test those waters. They are deep and this is not about me but about Jesus Christ.

So be it as according to your own words.
The Lord God judge between you and I.
Winner takes all.
Amen

Ahhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooo wrong again......there is this thing called wiping your feet :0
But cha did get something right....yes we love you :)

So be it as according to your own words.
The Lord God judge between you and I.
Winner takes all.
Amen

In fact?
[Matthew 7:23]

So the Holy Ghost said I was nothing but words and no substance huh?
[Matt 24:35 Mark 10:31 Luke 21:33]

While I can't say that God told me anything about you, I know in my spirit that His love for me is no greater than His love for you. But then again, I'm just all talk....

So be it as according to your own words.
The Lord God judge between you and I.
Winner takes all.
Amen
This has been a very profitable day in the Lord.

 

[kjw47]

It also says in Hebrews 1 v 6 .......and let all the angels of God worship Him.
Why would the word of God say for all the angels to worship Him when God's word tells us that worship is for God only?
This would only be true if Jesus is God! When we hear of the angels themselves tell others who go to worship them say "no, worship God only" why would they themselves then turn around and worship someone other than God!? Wouldn't they be contradicting themselves in doing so?
The only fitting thing is that they are worshipping God when they worship Jesus.
If the Bible, Gods word, says only God is to be worshipped then that is it, no ifs, no buts. If one does not believe Jesus to be God then how can one say, as yourself, they have no problems with Him being worshipped?

The greek word found there---Proskenau--had 4 meanings from greek to English--1) worship to God--2) obeisance to a king--plus 2 other meanings---The Messiah--Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15)--- obeisance to our king is the correct usage of that word concerning the Messiah---not worship---trinity error to mislead--along with other errors.

 

[StanJ]

The greek word found there---Proskenau--had 4 meanings from greek to English--1) worship to God--2) obeisance to a king--plus 2 other meanings---The Messiah--Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15)--- obeisance to our king is the correct usage of that word concerning the Messiah---not worship---trinity error to mislead--along with other errors.

Actually the correct connotation of προσκυνέω / (proskyneō) in the NT is to do reverence or homage by prostration. THAT is the worship demanded and allowed ONLY of our GOD. The error is in your post, not the English translation of the Greek manuscripts.

 

[RANDOR]

So be it as according to your own words.
The Lord God judge between you and I.
Winner takes all.
Amen

So be it as according to your own words.
The Lord God judge between you and I.
Winner takes all.
Amen

So be it as according to your own words.
The Lord God judge between you and I.
Winner takes all.
Amen

This has been a very profitable day in the Lord.

Oh-boy...winner takes all.......what must I do to become a winner? Do I need to buy some tickets some where?

Wait a minute here........I've already been forgiven of my sins......so I won't be needin a judge......I'll pass :)

You can go get judged............count me out
Jesus and I are kickin back on the couch lookin at each other
shrugging our shoulders and shakin our heads and wondering where you came up with that.

We are rolling on the floor laughing........

 

[Purity]

Titus 2:13
waiting for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith that through the justice of our God and Savior Jesus Christ is of equal privilege with ours:

Proper hermeneutical exegesis of the NT clearly show Jesus IS God.

You how have seen me (in character) have seen the Father.

 

[StanJ]

You how have seen me (in character) have seen the Father.

These scriptures says NOTHING about character. It says who Jesus and God is. Our savior, so they have to be the same person because there is only ONE savior.

 

[Purity]

These scriptures says NOTHING about character. It says who Jesus and God is. Our savior, so they have to be the same person because there is only ONE savior.

Yes I agree there is only one saviour. His name is Yahweh Elohim of Israel, of Abraham, of Isaac & of Jacob - He is also the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ whose name is salvation - guess who put it there? Eph 1:3

That's right.... God.

 

[RANDOR]

Yes I agree there is only one saviour. His name is Yahweh Elohim of Israel, of Abraham, of Isaac & of Jacob - He is also the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ whose name is salvation - guess who put it there? Eph 1:3

That's right.... God.

I bet you guys scratch your heads every night on.....how come these people can't see Jesus isn't God.
Gosh...you give us scripture after scripture after scripture showing us that Jesus isn't God.

You are probably thinking...........we are pretty dense........actually...I can see where you are coming from.

But....yes, here comes the oh important BUT :)

This is the truth>>>
Ya see........you guys have only taken the scriptures from what you have been taught.

I guess we didn't know better and went straight to Jesus. So forgive us if the way you see God is not the way Jesus showed us.

Ya see.............we have been shown............not taught.

Ask Jesus into your life......so you can be shown also.

He's alive....lets treat Him as such.

 

[StanJ]

Yes I agree there is only one saviour. His name is Yahweh Elohim of Israel, of Abraham, of Isaac & of Jacob - He is also the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ whose name is salvation - guess who put it there? Eph 1:3

That's right.... God.

Proper exegesis involves using ALL scripture, not just what suits your dogma.
Heb 1:8
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Matthew 1:23
“The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
John 1:1,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Is 43:3
For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior

Jesus was/is God in the flesh and He tells us as much.

 

[laid renard]

Sorry, I should correct my last post. It is only SDA's who have told me the angels were Jesus. It has been the JW's who have told me He wasn't God. I personally believe Jesus is God. So if as some say Jesus is "not God" then how can one justify worshipping Jesus who they say "is not God" when one admits that worship is for God only? The Bible clearly tells us to worship God alone!

Well said. Plain and simple. The best way to say it actually. Even I understood it.

 

[Purity]

Proper exegesis involves using ALL scripture, not just what suits your dogma.
Heb 1:8
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Stan,

Since the Father addresses the Son, "O God", do you take this is as proof that the Son is "very God". From this verse "all" the complex Trinitarian teaching is seen?

The reason why I ask this is every translator note you will find will tell you there is ambiguity with this verse.

Am I right to suggest you will except only the translation with bias?

If so, how does your comment sit with you now?

Proper exegesis involves using ALL scripture, not just what suits your dogma

"Therefore God, even thy God" (Heb 1:9) is evidence that Christ is not the "Eternal Son". Since the Father is the God of Jesus, then clearly Jesus is not himself "Very God". (See also John 20:17).

Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6. In this Psalm the Hebrew word "elohim" is translated "God". The word "elohim" is used of Moses relationship with Pharaoh: "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god {elohim} to Pharaoh". (Exod. 7:1). It also is used of the judges of Israel. (Psa. 82:6 cf. John 10:34; Exod. 22:9, 28). Persons who are divinely appointed and made strong by Yahweh are referred to as "God", but this does not imply they are persons within the Godhead.

In "the world to come" (Hebrews 2:5), the Son will be called "The mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6), although "now we see not yet all things put under him." (Hebrews 2:8). In the Kingdom Age, the Son will reign with the power and authority of his Father. (1 Cor. 15:24-28). The writer to the Hebrews points out, however, that the "more excellent name" obtained by the Son is by virtue of his personal worthiness and elevation by his Father, and not by the Son re-claiming divested powers of the Godhead, as you assert: "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (Hebrews 1:9).

Please don't return with lame "proper exegesis" comments, all it does is reveal you are just another desperate Trinitarian trying to force feed dogmas into the text which are not there.

Good day Stan.
P.

Supporting Ref from the NET Study Bible on Heb 1:8NET

tn Or possibly, “Your throne is God forever and ever.” This translation is quite doubtful, however, since (1) in the context the Son is being contrasted to the angels and is presented as far better than they.

Comment: What's interesting about this comment is they acknowledge the context is not speaking about headship or deity but Jesus being exalted above the angles.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

Since the Father addresses the Son, "O God", do you take this is as proof that the Son is "very God". From this verse "all" the complex Trinitarian teaching is seen?

The reason why I ask this is every translator note you will find will tell you there is ambiguity with this verse.

Am I right to suggest you will except only the translation with bias?

If so, how does your comment sit with you now?


"Therefore God, even thy God" (Heb 1:9) is evidence that Christ is not the "Eternal Son". Since the Father is the God of Jesus, then clearly Jesus is not himself "Very God". (See also John 20:17).

Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6. In this Psalm the Hebrew word "elohim" is translated "God". The word "elohim" is used of Moses relationship with Pharaoh: "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god {elohim} to Pharaoh". (Exod. 7:1). It also is used of the judges of Israel. (Psa. 82:6 cf. John 10:34; Exod. 22:9, 28). Persons who are divinely appointed and made strong by Yahweh are referred to as "God", but this does not imply they are persons within the Godhead.

In "the world to come" (Hebrews 2:5), the Son will be called "The mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6), although "now we see not yet all things put under him." (Hebrews 2:8). In the Kingdom Age, the Son will reign with the power and authority of his Father. (1 Cor. 15:24-28). The writer to the Hebrews points out, however, that the "more excellent name" obtained by the Son is by virtue of his personal worthiness and elevation by his Father, and not by the Son re-claiming divested powers of the Godhead, as you assert: "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (Hebrews 1:9).

Please don't return with lame "proper exegesis" comments, all it does is reveal you are just another desperate Trinitarian trying to force feed dogmas into the text which are not there.

Good day Stan.
P.

Supporting Ref from the NET Study Bible on Heb 1:8NET

tn Or possibly, “Your throne is God forever and ever.” This translation is quite doubtful, however, since (1) in the context the Son is being contrasted to the angels and is presented as far better than they.

Comment: What's interesting about this comment is they acknowledge the context is not speaking about headship or deity but Jesus being exalted above the angles.

From Ps. 45:6, 7. The one who addresses the Son with the words “O God” is Himself “God, your God.” The Son is God, and yet distinct from the Father.

I don't know WHAT translator you are referring to but none I read have a problem with it.

I don't use the KJV because of all it's errors and lack of contextual interpretation. Ex 7:1 use 'a god' and as well all know there are lower case gods and there is GOD. The only bias I see is you eisegeting scripture and equivocating about it, instead of accepting what it says.
Hebrews 1 is showing the order of things, which you seem to not understand.
v10; He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."

and this is totally consistent with John 1:1-5;
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

If you actually understood what Elohyim means, you would not be so quick to try and explain away the triune nature of God.
If you actually exegeted and didn't eisegete I would not have to mention it.

[SIZE=12pt]Most of mankind has no real idea of who God really is. The gods of unbelieving men are small and do not take into account the immensity of Almighty God as He is presented in the Bible. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]J.B. Phillips wrote a book in 1952 called, “Your God Is Too Small.” He exposed the misconceptions that many have about God, in that their understanding of God superimposed upon Him human characteristics. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]In His greatness and power the Bible says He spoke the universe into existence. God affirms this truth saying, “[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. “[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (Hebrews 11:3)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The above quote can be found HERE.[/SIZE]

You're not the first Arian I have debated and you won't be the last. This false teaching has been around since Arius and maybe even before. Jesus may have been born, but the WORD that was incarnate in Him always has and will be. Only by accepting and understanding the hypostatic nature of Jesus Christ can you ever hope to know the ONE true GOD.

 

[kjw47]

Actually the correct connotation of προσκυνέω / (proskyneō) in the NT is to do reverence or homage by prostration. THAT is the worship demanded and allowed ONLY of our GOD. The error is in your post, not the English translation of the Greek manuscripts.

Not at all, the reason for 4 different meanings was to show the separation--bowing in obeisance to our king Jesus.( mortal kings required bowing, why wouldn't the king of kings?) But at the conclusion of Jesus' millennial reign, He hands back the kingdom to his God and Father and becomes a subject like we will be( except still 2nd in command. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

 

[Madad21]

You know more than most here, 71 times LORD and GOD are juxtaposed, LORD being Jesus and the Father being God NEVER reversed as Jesus God, the Father Lord in the same verse.

And ONE apparent time ever Jesus was called both Lord and God in the same verse. My view: Thomas called him 'elohim.' And this got translated "God."

What else is it translated as then? elohim means God in its basic form, other words are added to it give more information. however Its unmistakable in the Greek as theos, what else can elohim be translated as if with out those words?