Question about evolution/creationism/intelligent design

[Saint Gutfree]

(arniem;42147)
Anyone out there who is good at mathematics I need your assistance. I had all these figures at one time but they are filed away somewhere.....it is accepted fact that we are in an expanding universe....the rate , especially in our solar system can be measured and proven....it has been determined the moon moves away from the earth about 1 1/2 inches a year.....it is established that the gravitational pull of the moon causes ocean tides daily....tides are 9 to 11 feet high at The Bay of Fundy , Nova Scotia.....If the moon was closer to earth , the gravitational pull would be much stronger.If the earth and moon have been here for 10 million years how high would the tides have been then ?Many thanks for anyone who has the time to calculate this for me.Arnie M.
I'm sorry, but this isn't an acceptable argument to present here. The moon-tide argument has been widely dispelled since 1999 (or earlier). A full explanation of why this isn't an issue can be found here.I find it mildly disturbing to see these refuted arguments keep popping into the consciousness of Christians. You guys owe it to yourself to own the truth.

 

[Saint Gutfree]

(arniem;42141)
Old age earth and / or the theory of evolution continually uses one equation in EVERY formula and explaination;That equation is ... "millions and millions and millions of years" ......
That's because we have solid evidence the Earth is 4.5 billion years old.
Remove it and the theory collapses. Everything hinges on proving the equation that the earth is millions and millions of years old. If this cannot be done with science , we cannot build upon it. Let us attempt to do this now.
See the link above. This is proven.
We date the age of the earth by the fossil layers.
Incorrect. See the above link.
However this theory collapses because fossils of 60 foot whales can be observed standing vertical in the fossil layer.
Any evidence of that?
The theory has collapsed.
I'm sorry, but this is no way to debate. You cannot boldly declare that an evidenced scientific fact has "collapsed" without providing a shred of counter-evidence.Regardless, even if the age of the planet were off (it's not) we know that the planet is far older than the age given in the bible. Six thousand years ago is about when certain parts of humanity were inventing glue.

Remember that looking for the answer to how we got here is detective work. In detective work, we don't have to have a valid explanation to disregard an invalid explanation. We don't need to know how Jimmy Hoffa disapeared to know that people born after he disapeared or who passed on before he was born had nothing to do with it. In much the same way, god creating the universe / mankind causes far more problems than it solves.

 

[Jackie D]

(Saint Gutfree;42155)
I'm sorry, but this isn't an acceptable argument to present here. The moon-tide argument has been widely dispelled since 1999 (or earlier). A full explanation of why this isn't an issue can be found here.I find it mildly disturbing to see these refuted arguments keep popping into the consciousness of Christians. You guys owe it to yourself to own the truth.
we do own the Truth....by the way the purpose of this forum was not intended to enlighten us...if that is your agenda please take note:
04-16-2007, 06:41 PM Denver Webmaster & Administrator A Notice For All NonChristians This forum is open to both Christians and NonChristians. The purpose of this forum is for legitimate questions to be asked by those who are not saved through Christ.If you've come to this forum because you desire to "enlighten" us Christians, you're merely wasting your time. If you've come here solely to debate, this probably is not the place for you either. There are locations all across the internet that welcome this type of discussion. Christianity Board is not one of them.
please be respectful of this.....

 

[Saint Gutfree]

(Jackie D;42153)
My two cents are that there is probably some correctness in evolution, creationism and even thermodynamics BUT since much of these sciences are based on theory ...
You misunderstand what a theory is. You're mistaking it for an hypothesis. Let's draw the analogy that science is about designing and building cars. An hypothesis is like a blueprint. We don't know if it will work or not. We have to do some experiments to see if it will actually run. Many car blueprints never even make it to being cars. It requires a lot of work. A theory is like a car that's built and already runs. It functions. It's out there on the road being driven by tons of people. Now, what we can do is occasionally we'll tweak it a little. We'll understand how to make the engine run more efficiently. We'll work out a bug. Occasionally, we'll recall the thing and correct someting small that we thought wasn't an issue but turned out to be. A law is like a classic car that we wouldn't change because it's damn near close to perfect. Please understand that there is no ongoing controversy about the age of the planet or evolution. Science has proven it. With evidence. We've observed speciation in labs. We know how old the Earth is and how it formed. The only reason we're having this discussion is that a handful of radical Christians feel they need to perpetuate this argument... presumably because they feel (needlessly) threatened by evolution / old earth.

 

[Saint Gutfree]

(Jackie D;42159)
we do own the Truth....
If I've upset you then I apologize. I'm used to another forum where several of the Christians champion the evolution side of the debate. In discussions of religion, it's perfectly acceptable for people to offer different views and agree to disagree on things. Muslims will see Allah is god while Christians see Jesus as Lord. Who's right? Time will tell. However, in science, there is a right and a wrong answer. The Earth isn't flat for you and round for me. It's a sphere. For everyone. All the time. Stating the Earth is flat is wrong. So, when I see Christians offering up arguments that are known to be wrong and have been proven so for nearly a decade, I see that as a problem if not a crisis.

 

[Jackie D]

(Saint Gutfree;42160)
You misunderstand what a theory is. You're mistaking it for an hypothesis. Let's draw the analogy that science is about designing and building cars. An hypothesis is like a blueprint. We don't know if it will work or not. We have to do some experiments to see if it will actually run. Many car blueprints never even make it to being cars. It requires a lot of work. A theory is like a car that's built and already runs. It functions. It's out there on the road being driven by tons of people. Now, what we can do is occasionally we'll tweak it a little. We'll understand how to make the engine run more efficiently. We'll work out a bug. Occasionally, we'll recall the thing and correct someting small that we thought wasn't an issue but turned out to be. A law is like a classic car that we wouldn't change because it's damn near close to perfect. Please understand that there is no ongoing controversy about the age of the planet or evolution. Science has proven it. With evidence. We've observed speciation in labs. We know how old the Earth is and how it formed. The only reason we're having this discussion is that a handful of radical Christians feel they need to perpetuate this argument... presumably because they feel (needlessly) threatened by evolution / old earth.

We know how old the Earth is and how it formed.
Do you? well then you must know God.....
reason we're having this discussion is that a handful of radical Christians feel they need to perpetuate this argument... presumably because they feel (needlessly) threatened by evolution / old earth.
This topic was started by someone who does not believe....and the board rules tell you that you are not invited here to enlighten us to your theories....I've no desire to learn of things that in the long run, won't mean squat. Keep your titles and your assumptions to yourself please....

 

[Jackie D]

(Saint Gutfree;42162)
If I've upset you then I apologize. I'm used to another forum where several of the Christians champion the evolution side of the debate. In discussions of religion, it's perfectly acceptable for people to offer different views and agree to disagree on things. Muslims will see Allah is god while Christians see Jesus as Lord. Who's right? Time will tell. However, in science, there is a right and a wrong answer. The Earth isn't flat for you and round for me. It's a sphere. For everyone. All the time. Stating the Earth is flat is wrong. So, when I see Christians offering up arguments that are known to be wrong and have been proven so for nearly a decade, I see that as a problem if not a crisis.
no you didn't upset me.the only crisis I see, is that many spend so much time looking into matters that will not come to the same conclusions about creation and God, not ever. So though you believe that you are correct and the rest are wrong, you've not taken this world any closer to enlightenment than it was before you came along. For all the wisdom and knowledge in the world will never be able to disprove God. With that I will bow out of this conversation for I care not to know your "wisdom"God bless you

 

[Saint Gutfree]

(Jackie D;42163)
Do you? well then you must know God.....
I don't understand why Christians have an issue with this. Most of the Christians I'm used to discussing things with have adopted the stance that science's explanation (old earth / evolution) was empowered by god. For most, there is no conflict here. Is that what you're stating or do you believe the Earth to be only 6000 years old?
This topic was started by someone who does not believe....and the board rules tell you that you are not invited here to enlighten us to your theories....I've no desire to learn of things that in the long run, won't mean squat. Keep your titles and your assumptions to yourself please....
What Denver specifically stated was, "Let it be known that this forum is not for arguing nor for attacking either the Christian faith or any single Christian. " I'm attacking neither your faith in Jesus nor any individual here. As I just pointed out, there's no reason to have a conflict between religion and old earth / evolution.

 

[Saint Gutfree]

(Jackie D;42165)
With that I will bow out of this conversation for I care not to know your "wisdom"God bless you
Thanks. However, this isn't about anything so lofty as wisdom. It's about getting the truth. Again, most Christians have no problem with adopting a figurative understanding of Genesis. Help me understand why you insist it's literal. If you believe in Christ then you believe he gifted you with reason and logic. You believe that science is also a gift to help understand god's creation. So, why deny proven facts? What do you gain from this?

 

[Jackie D]

(Saint Gutfree;42180)
Thanks. However, this isn't about anything so lofty as wisdom. It's about getting the truth. Again, most Christians have no problem with adopting a figurative understanding of Genesis. Help me understand why you insist it's literal. If you believe in Christ then you believe he gifted you with reason and logic. You believe that science is also a gift to help understand god's creation. So, why deny proven facts? What do you gain from this?
what I gain from it is not crowding my mind with stuff that will not make one bit of difference to me or anyone else in this world at the end. Can't take it with us, does not make my faith in Christ any deeper and the wisdom that man seeks in no way furthers the Kingdom of Heaven..reason and logic tells me what I have spoken is true. again, the agenda to try to enlighten us is evident. Your sciences do not prove that God is not the author of it all, what it does prove is the extreme complexity of a Being with Superior Knowledge, Wisdom and Ability....so I have answered your questions.

 

[Amira]

Dear Saint Gutfree,I do not wish to be rude, but if I may point you to my first post, the purpose of this thread was not to start a debate on evolution vs creationism. There are too many of those as it is (so if you do want to debate this, there should be no trouble finding such a debate). If you look at the first post you'll find that I wanted to hear the Christian views on creationism, intelligent design and evolution. I am sorry but I do not really see how starting a debate is going to do achieve that, because in my opinion these debates are not usually very fruitful and end in argument, banning or they do not end. However, if you are a Christian, perhaps you could look at the first post, and tell me your thoughts on it.

 

[Saint Gutfree]

(Jackie D;42184)
what I gain from it is not crowding my mind with stuff that will not make one bit of difference to me or anyone else in this world at the end.
But you don't really believe that. If you did, then why learn anything EXCEPT the bible? Why go to college? Why graduate from high school? I apologize if I've presented something in a confusing manner. How can I help you understand it better? No. I'm not saying that in a condescending tone. I really want to help you learn this stuff. Look, if you and other forumites are going to take the time to learn what you believe to be facts about evolution and the age of the planet, don't you owe it to yourselves to have the correct ones?

 

[Saint Gutfree]

(Amira;42219)
Dear Saint Gutfree,I do not wish to be rude, but if I may point you to my first post, the purpose of this thread was not to start a debate on evolution vs creationism.
My apologies if we're off-topic, but threads going off-topic seems to be a common occurance on these forums. I know: two wrongs don't make a right, but if most folks don't mind in other threads, why is it a problem here?

 

[Remagoen]

(Saint Gutfree;42279)
My apologies if we're off-topic, but threads going off-topic seems to be a common occurance on these forums. I know: two wrongs don't make a right, but if most folks don't mind in other threads, why is it a problem here?
It's her thread, so she can "moderate" it to keep it on track as much as she feels she needs in order to satisfy her main post in this thread.

 

[VISIONARY]

Well, I am happy to give mine. Of course there was intelligent design, my clear eye lens and ears did not happen randomly. If they were, they could just as easily been connected to my stomach. Speaking of that, as organs, why are my eyes on the outside, none of my other organs are? Why not an eye in the stomach to see if it is full? That is kind of thing a random process would end up with. Where are all the still evolving ears and eyes that can't see yet, on younger species then, they need another million years to finish?But on the other side, the 6000 year old earth is nonsense. That is not in bible anyway, some preacher claimed he added up names and got this silliness. The names are family names of TRIBES, each could have lasted thousands of years. Anyway, man came last, the most you could gain from adding up tribes is a guess to when man first got his soul, not to when the earth was made.I think God liked watching the dinosaurs, maybe more than us, in fact, he may decide to return to just that in case no one ever thought about it. The one thing they could not do was appreciate him, if we also don't, well you see how the dino's came out?

 

[Saint Gutfree]

(VISIONARY;42355)
Well, I am happy to give mine. Of course there was intelligent design, my clear eye lens and ears did not happen randomly. If they were, they could just as easily been connected to my stomach.
While I agree that your ears and eyes didn't happen randomly, understand that predictability and sophistication doesn't equate to design. We know this for a few reasons. First, the eye and the ear aren't nearly as sophisticated as some people may think. Sure, they have a lot of "moving parts", but it's easy to chart the development of eyes from light sensitive cells (like thos of simple multicellular organisms) to very simple light sensing organs (like those of some crustaceans) and on up. Second, what do you look at the conclude the world has design? You point to it's sophistication, the intelligence of humans, and the idea that this could not have happened randomly. The problem then becomes that god is also sophisticated, intelligent, and could not have happened randomly. So, by design logic, god requires a designer. And we both know you don't believe that so something has to change.
Speaking of that, as organs, why are my eyes on the outside, none of my other organs are? Why not an eye in the stomach to see if it is full? That is kind of thing a random process would end up with.
From a natural selection standpoint, organisms that wear their organs on the outside don't survive long enough to reproduce

.
Where are all the still evolving ears and eyes that can't see yet, on younger species then, they need another million years to finish?
What makes you think your eyes and ears aren't still evolving?

 

[arniem]

(Saint Gutfree;42575)
First, the eye and the ear aren't nearly as sophisticated as some people may think.
The eye of the honeybee has more computing power than the most powerful computer ever built .The eye and brain of the honeybee has more computing power and accuracy than the most modern GPS military grade tracking system anywhere on earth.Without being able to speak , write , do math or run a computer , the honey bee can communicate to it's co-worker the longitude , latitude , distance , and all coordinances , with accuracy within one millimeter in 50 miles all the while calculating and computing the movements of the sun as he was heading to the hive , and also compute and communicate and calculate the compensation for the movement of the sun as the co-worker heads to destination. The bee communicates this faster than it took me to type this paragraph. And I am typing pretty fast this morning. Sheesh !!Some professor may not think the eye of a honeybee is very sophisticated , but the bee sure thinks so ,and so do I because the bee can prove it for me right now with observable science. No faith is required , no religion is required , no Creator is required to observe this utterly perfect brain and eye of the bee that is so perfect and complex our human mind to this day cannot comprehend its workings. Yet the professor who is unable to comprehend or describe how this honeybee brain even functions will claim to know how it was made. This I do not understand.

 

[arniem]

(VISIONARY;42355)
But on the other side, the 6000 year old earth is nonsense. That is not in bible anyway,
Good morning visionary. There are parts of the bible that would put anyone to sleep reading it. Does for me anyway. All those decendants , and geneology , and who begat who , I think I am falling asleep now just thinking about it!! ha !! Anyway , I did this a few years ago , took a while , fell asleep about 5 times , but if you do all the calculations the information is there. All the ages from Adam to Noah to Jesus are there , all the ages when children were born are there , it can be calculated , the numbers are all there. It is not complicated , just takes a lot of time. You will end up showing about 4000 years from Adam to Christ. 2000 more years to today and this is where the 6000 year figure comes from.Also , if someone mentions the 6 days of creation were "eras" or "ages" or "long periods of time" disregard it. Look again in Genesis , several times it will point out they were referred to as "evenings and mornings" as well as days. This is not complicated.While you are at it , if you do the calculations from the time of Noah to today , apply an established actuarial formula starting with Noah and his family (of 8) and see what the projected population of the planet should be in the year 2000.Best wishes.

 

[Amira]

(Saint Gutfree;42279)
My apologies if we're off-topic, but threads going off-topic seems to be a common occurance on these forums. I know: two wrongs don't make a right, but if most folks don't mind in other threads, why is it a problem here?
Dear Saint Gutfree,I am sorry it took a little while to reply, I was very busy working on a project last couple of days. I do not normally mind if threads go off-topic, but... there are some topics that seem to inevitably turn into arguments (and not the good kind), perhaps not always, but I have seen it happen many times. And this is one of those topics. That is really the reason why I thought it would be a good idea to try and keep debate out of this thread as much as possible, in order to just hear what people have to say and their thoughts on it.

 

[Christina]

(arniem;42625)
Good morning visionary. There are parts of the bible that would put anyone to sleep reading it. Does for me anyway. All those decendants , and geneology , and who begat who , I think I am falling asleep now just thinking about it!! ha !! Anyway , I did this a few years ago , took a while , fell asleep about 5 times , but if you do all the calculations the information is there. All the ages from Adam to Noah to Jesus are there , all the ages when children were born are there , it can be calculated , the numbers are all there. It is not complicated , just takes a lot of time. You will end up showing about 4000 years from Adam to Christ. 2000 more years to today and this is where the 6000 year figure comes from.Also , if someone mentions the 6 days of creation were "eras" or "ages" or "long periods of time" disregard it. Look again in Genesis , several times it will point out they were referred to as "evenings and mornings" as well as days. This is not complicated.While you are at it , if you do the calculations from the time of Noah to today , apply an established actuarial formula starting with Noah and his family (of 8) and see what the projected population of the planet should be in the year 2000.Best wishes.
We need to have a conversation about this dearest ArnieI do absoulty agree with you to a point that morning to evening is the rule to follow with time as Bulinger also points out, but Im not convinced that the creation Week can be held to the time of manAs it (time as we know it)did not exsist from the beginning I rather lean toward the fact that the one day morning to evening in Genesis creation week are Gods Days.Normally when "Do not be ignorant" is said a great mystery or important knowledge is being revealed unto us 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.So if creation week is measured in Gods days each day, morning to evening, is equal to 1000 human years making the creation week 7000 years long but changing little as to the time line of Adam to today. looking forward to your thoughts.