Question about evolution/creationism/intelligent design

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Amira

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Dec 18, 2007
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Dear everyone,I have often wondered about the different views Christians (and non-Christian too) have on evolution, creationism or intelligent design. I know this is a very tricky and even explosive subject, but I also find it very interesting. I do hope I won't offend anyone unknowingly with my questions. If I do, I apologise in advance, it is not my intention. I am mostly interested in hearing the different Christian views, not to debate if evolution, creationism or intelligent design is true. My questions are therefore directed at the Christians here. I would like to know what your views are on evolution, creationism and intelligent design. Here are some of my thoughts and questions to maybe help you get started.Why do some Christians find evolution very objectionable and others accept it? In your view, is it possible to believe both the Bible and in the evolution? I mean, the theory of evolution does not explicitly exclude the existence of God. I do understand it conflicts the story of creation in the Bible, but certainly there are some other contradictions too (although I suppose this can be debated, but if you can try to take this perhaps more non-Christian view for my benefit, I would appreciate it
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) between the Bible and modern society. However, evolution seems to be the most important of these issues. Why do you think that is? Do you think that the theory of evolution makes the idea of no creator more feasible (in the minds of non-Christian that is, obviously)? Do you think it is possible to incorporate the two world-views, or is it a choice or either or? Lastly, what are your thoughts on intelligent design? Is it science or religion or a combination of the two? Does it contradict the story of creation? If you believe in intelligent design, do you think it is compatible with either the story of creation of the theory of evolution, or is it more of a third alternative, as it were or a combination of the two? If you want, you can also tell me about your background as a Christian (denomination, born-again etc.) and how you came to hold your view on these matters (study, church, prayer etc.) although you may find this too personal, and I quite understand if you do not want to. If you want to ask me anything, please feel free! Thank you very much for your time and replies!
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Faithful

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Jul 13, 2007
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Luke 10:21 (King James Version) 21.In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.They are worlds apart the way the natural man thinks and the way the child of God thinks. The wise of this world only follow science or evolution because they do not know God and cannot know his ways. The two cannot find a middle ground for truth and creation rely solely on God.Science is manmade and without man could not exist. A man who finds answers only within his own wisdom is limited to that wisdom. A person who seeks truth looks at all possible answers but does not make his own up. Science is man making his own answers up to his questions.So whether a non-believer or believer the two cannot meet.Faithful.:angel9:
 

ForYou

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Jan 21, 2008
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Thunder1 that made me laugh. Many of us will get deep into it. But I am not (due to I am going to see a play I preformed in two years ago) Evolution=crapGod made us.God did not make 1 cell and we came to us now!I go by the bible my veiws will be directly from it.
 

Thunder1

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Dec 12, 2007
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I laughed at it too, I think followerofchrist said that first,sorry if I'm wrong,but I started to use it then too, was not my idea,but good one,hey.
 

Thunder1

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Dec 12, 2007
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(Amira;39944)
Dear everyone,I have often wondered about the different views Christians (and non-Christian too) have on evolution, creationism or intelligent design. I know this is a very tricky and even explosive subject, but I also find it very interesting. I do hope I won't offend anyone unknowingly with my questions. If I do, I apologise in advance, it is not my intention. I am mostly interested in hearing the different Christian views, not to debate if evolution, creationism or intelligent design is true. My questions are therefore directed at the Christians here. I would like to know what your views are on evolution, creationism and intelligent design. Here are some of my thoughts and questions to maybe help you get started.Why do some Christians find evolution very objectionable and others accept it? In your view, is it possible to believe both the Bible and in the evolution? I mean, the theory of evolution does not explicitly exclude the existence of God. I do understand it conflicts the story of creation in the Bible, but certainly there are some other contradictions too (although I suppose this can be debated, but if you can try to take this perhaps more non-Christian view for my benefit, I would appreciate it
smile.gif
) between the Bible and modern society. However, evolution seems to be the most important of these issues. Why do you think that is? Do you think that the theory of evolution makes the idea of no creator more feasible (in the minds of non-Christian that is, obviously)? Do you think it is possible to incorporate the two world-views, or is it a choice or either or? Lastly, what are your thoughts on intelligent design? Is it science or religion or a combination of the two? Does it contradict the story of creation? If you believe in intelligent design, do you think it is compatible with either the story of creation of the theory of evolution, or is it more of a third alternative, as it were or a combination of the two? If you want, you can also tell me about your background as a Christian (denomination, born-again etc.) and how you came to hold your view on these matters (study, church, prayer etc.) although you may find this too personal, and I quite understand if you do not want to. If you want to ask me anything, please feel free! Thank you very much for your time and replies!
smile.gif

Amira,so you study at university,yeah? Are those Moominpappa books children's books?
 

Thunder1

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Dec 12, 2007
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Amira, my personal early experiences about God were the ways He started to show His love towards me. I'd never experienced such a love in my life. God put different christian people in different places and situations where I was at those times to draw me closer to Him. And these christian people were not related to each other or did not know each other. I just felt such a overwhelming peace when I was amongst these people. I felt they had something that I did not have that time. That was a just a start,then I started to be more interested and went to church with some of them and just talked with them about Jesus and God. It was God's work,but I was also ready for it. I did not fight against it , why would I, because it was so positive and amazing . God's love never fails.
 

Jon-Marc

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Jun 8, 2007
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(Thunder1;40008)
God said "Bang" and it all happened.
Actually, the way I heard that was, "God spoke, and BANG! it happened." That's the only BANG in which I believe. The Bible says that "by him all things consist."Col. 1:17
 

Amira

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Dec 18, 2007
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Dear Called 2 Conquer (and everyone else too),I think it was quite helpful in me trying to understand creationism. As you may already know, I am not a Christian and I study at a university, hence the world of science and research etc. is very familiar to me and easy to understand. However, the world of religion is not as much, but I am interested in religion and trying to understand it. Unfortunately, it is sometime difficult to know what exactly to ask and probably it is also sometimes difficult for people to explain their beliefs in a way I can understand it. However, your answer was very good.
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So, I gather you believe in evolution on some level, as in explaining how a species changes etc. but not as explaining how different species came about and also not explaining how life began? Did I understand correctly? On the last point though, I have to mention that I do not think evolution explains how life begun, nor do I think it is supposed to, as this cannot be scientifically explained or proved at the moment, although there are some theories. This is one reason I do not always quite understand why there seems to such a wide divide between evolution and creationism. Because one could believe that God created everything, after which species evolved and changed. Of course, there is the question of the date of the Bible and the dates of the theory of evolution, the two are very far apart indeed.That brings me to another question in fact. Do you think it is possible that something in the Bible could be misinterpreted (not necessarily the date of the creation, but just in general)? I have read some of the Bible, and it is not always a very easy read. I mean, as it was written a long time ago and it has been translated many times over and many versions exist, the language is often rather old-fashioned and it contains several old-fashioned expressions some of which may be direct translations from Hebrew and thus without understanding the Hebrew meaning, might be difficult to understand. After all, humans do err. I think your point on intelligent design is very interesting. Do you think intelligent design is a bad, good or neutral theory? Because if it is religion-based (as it appears to be), does it take away from creationism? Would it be better for ID to be just straight-forward creationism? Or does it attract more people to religion because it uses scientific register? On one hand, ID is not going to attract any evolutionary-biologists or anyone like that, because during that Pennsylvania court case, ID failed scientific testing, besides which all new scientific theories need to be backed up with lots of hard evidence in order to be accepted, because there are always supporters of the old theory who are not willing to change their minds very easily. Sometimes this is quite understandable of course because there are so many new theories, most of which will fail at some point, but sometimes it is a bit frustrating. On the other hand, people who are already religious, may not feel any need to explain religion in scientific terms, if you know what I mean. Although I suppose then there are people who are a little bit of both, I don't know if they would find ID appealing, possibly. Ok, now I am just rambling on. Anyway, this is a very interesting topic, although sometimes people get very passionate about it. But please let me know if I get too nosy or anything.
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Thank you all for your replies.
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Jerusalem Junkie

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Jan 7, 2008
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Thunder1 that made me laugh. Many of us will get deep into it. But I am not (due to I am going to see a play I preformed in two years ago) Evolution=crapGod made us.God did not make 1 cell and we came to us now!I go by the bible my veiws will be directly from it.
Hehehehehehe................yeah right....
 

arniem

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Mar 17, 2008
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Hi ameraI think evolution is the biggest fairy tale ever told on the face of this earth , bar none.It violates all the laws of thermodynamics , most laws of physics and even common sense.I think it is widely accepted because most folks do not wish to ponder the possibility of a creator and Darwanism fulfills that nicely."Billions of years" is the equation always used. There is no other equation. Here is an example.If I kiss a frog , will it turn into a prince? No. Of course it will not.If I kiss a frog , will it turn into a prince next week? No. Of course it will not.If I kiss a frog , will it turn into a Prince if I wait for 1000 years? No It will not.However the evolutionist tells me that if I wait for "A Billion Years" then yes , that frog will turn into a prince , not only that , some will become squirrels , a few butterflies , and of course a monkey or two because we need them to turn into humans who can sit at a keyboard and type this stuff.Not only that , it gets even better. At exactly the same time and the same place and in parallel you will also observe that by random chance and selection a female version evolves. Have to reproduce right. We will name the final offspring Arnie and Amera.Having some fun Amera. What I say proves nothing except that people will beleive almost anything. Including religion. Next time someone presents you with an evolutionary teaching , ask them to remove the "billions of years" equation and see what you end up with. This is not complicated.Thanks for the question Amera. Talk laterArnie.
 

arniem

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Mar 17, 2008
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AmiraTo answer your question a bit more directly about why or how I believe in creation , here is one way I look at it.If I look at the Genesis record compared to the evolution theory , where will the arrows point when I apply known observable science.I will find the arrows will always point to Genesis and allow that possibility .The arrows will never point to the evolution possibility. Here is an example: Old Earth theory tries to convince me the fossil layers are the result of millions and billions of years of deposits. Fine. The Genesis theory hints these layers were formed quickly by a world wide flood. Fine What happens when we come to the perfectly preserved fossil of a 60 foot whale standing on its tail in the rock layers. That is some whale that could stand on its tail for millions and billions of years while all the other rock layers caught up .Big question mark goes beside Darwin and a tiny check mark beside Genesis.Same thing with the occasional vertical tree fossil in the layer. Systematically go down the list and you end up with a lot of tiny check marks beside the Genesis possibilities. Darwin gets only question marks. This is simple science. Not complicated at all.We haven't proven anything yet . All we have done is , well , end up with a lot of tiny check marks allowing the Genesis version to be possible. None for Darwin.Good questions AmiraThanksArnie
 

Saint Gutfree

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Mar 22, 2008
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(arniem;41883)
Hi ameraI think evolution is the biggest fairy tale ever told on the face of this earth , bar none.
I'm sorry you feel that way. There are many websites run by Christians that muddy the water on evolution rather than attempting to explain it honestly.
It violates all the laws of thermodynamics , most laws of physics and even common sense.
Of course it doesn't. This site explains the misconception and helps dispel the notion that evolution contradicts the law of thermodynamics.
I think it is widely accepted because most folks do not wish to ponder the possibility of a creator and Darwanism fulfills that nicely.
It's accepted widely because it's been proven and observed in a lab.
"Billions of years" is the equation always used. There is no other equation. Here is an example.If I kiss a frog , will it turn into a prince? No. Of course it will not.If I kiss a frog , will it turn into a prince next week? No. Of course it will not.If I kiss a frog , will it turn into a Prince if I wait for 1000 years? No It will not.
Consider for a moment how you would feel if you saw a non-Christian making an argument that went like this:
"Jesus and Moses are the only two people Christians care about. There are no other people. Here is an example. Jesus and Moses met up. Jesus and Moses met up to fight the Romans with legions of angels. Jesus and Moses met up to fight the Romans with legions of angels and lost."​
At best, you'd politely point out that the non-Christian has it all wrong. That their argument is a misconception of Christianity and that no Christian actually believes that Jesus met up with Moses. You certainly wouldn't feel compelled to defend the idea that Moses and Jesus met up because it's not something you've ever claimed. Now, hyperbole aside, there is indeed more to evolution than time (billions of years or otherwise). There's genetic mutation and natural selection. I believe you are laboring under the misconception that evolution is like a latter leading to some pinacle. It's not. It's just an explanation for why some species change into other species. Consider the following:
Misconception: “Evolution is like a climb up a ladder of progress; organisms are always getting better.”
Response: It is true that natural selection weeds out individuals that are unfit in a particular situation, but for evolution, “good enough” is good enough. No organism has to be perfect. For example, many taxa (like some mosses, protists, fungi, sharks, opossums, and crayfish) have changed little over great expanses of time. They are not marching up a ladder of progress. Rather, they are fit enough to survive and reproduce, and that is all that is necessary to ensure their existence.Other taxa may have changed and diversified a great deal—but that doesn’t mean they got “better.” After all, climates change, rivers shift course, new competitors invade—and what was “better” a million years ago, may not be “better” today. What works “better” in one location might not work so well in another. Fitness is linked to environment, not to progress.​
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However the evolutionist tells me that if I wait for "A Billion Years" then yes , that frog will turn into a prince , not only that , some will become squirrels , a few butterflies , and of course a monkey or two because we need them to turn into humans who can sit at a keyboard and type this stuff.
This is a common mischaracterization of evolution. Understand that evolution is a gradual process with nearly countless subtle steps. It's easy to make any gradual process look silly by pointing to the beginning & the end and implying one should stem directly from the other. When we understand the full process, though, the micharacterization becomes apparent. For example, consider the following:
However the scientist tells me that if I wait for "lifetime" then yes , that infant will turn into an old man , not only that , some will become very old man , a few not so old men , and of course a young man or two because not everyone, apparently, makes it to old age.​
As we saw in the link to observed instances of speciation, evolution is as proven as aging.
Not only that , it gets even better. At exactly the same time and the same place and in parallel you will also observe that by random chance and selection a female version evolves. Have to reproduce right. We will name the final offspring Arnie and Amera.
I don't see how this poses a challenge. There are some single celled organisms which exchange genetic information and it's not hard to trace the roots of gender through various orders, genuses, and species. I suggest you take the time to read through the following sites. They will help dispel a lot of the "Jesus met up with Moses" arguments that seem to keep cropping up online. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/misc...gintheory.shtmlhttp://www.talkorigins.org/
 

Saint Gutfree

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Mar 22, 2008
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I hope this thread is not headed toward that Big Bang junk theory.....
So do I. Part of what some Christians often don't understand about evolution is that it has zero to do with the origin of the universe. It's the study of how life became other life. Implying that the Big Bang belongs in a thread about evolution is like implying the New Testament chronicles the life of Moses.
 

Remagoen

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Feb 20, 2008
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Saint Gutfree, would you mind if I refer people to this thread? I had gotten into several tussles all over the web about evolution and you seem to explain it so much better than I.
 

Saint Gutfree

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Mar 22, 2008
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(Remagoen;42121)
Saint Gutfree, would you mind if I refer people to this thread? I had gotten into several tussles all over the web about evolution and you seem to explain it so much better than I.
Please do.
 

arniem

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Mar 17, 2008
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Hi Saint Gut FreeThank you for your intelligent questions.You and I are capable of bringing up a thousand pages of information here for a thousand days. I would actually enjoy that very much but it is not nessesary. I prefer the very simple approach. Saves a lot of time.Old age earth and / or the theory of evolution continually uses one equation in EVERY formula and explaination;That equation is ... "millions and millions and millions of years" ......Remove it and the theory collapses. Everything hinges on proving the equation that the earth is millions and millions of years old. If this cannot be done with science , we cannot build upon it. Let us attempt to do this now.We date the age of the earth by the fossil layers. Around the world similar and matching layers are found. This is elementary science and easily observable. One theory is based on the belief that the layers represent millions and millions of years. However this theory collapses because fossils of 60 foot whales can be observed standing vertical in the fossil layer. Science can prove that a whale will not stand vertical for millions and millions of years .The theory has collapsed .We must look elsewhere for an explaination.This is not complicated.Many thanksTalk laterArnie M
 

arniem

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Mar 17, 2008
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Anyone out there who is good at mathematics I need your assistance. I had all these figures at one time but they are filed away somewhere.....it is accepted fact that we are in an expanding universe....the rate , especially in our solar system can be measured and proven....it has been determined the moon moves away from the earth about 1 1/2 inches a year.....it is established that the gravitational pull of the moon causes ocean tides daily....tides are 9 to 11 feet high at The Bay of Fundy , Nova Scotia.....If the moon was closer to earth , the gravitational pull would be much stronger.If the earth and moon have been here for 10 million years how high would the tides have been then ?Many thanks for anyone who has the time to calculate this for me.Arnie M.
 

Jackie D

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Mar 15, 2008
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My two cents are that there is probably some correctness in evolution, creationism and even thermodynamics BUT since much of these sciences are based on theory there is zero conclusion as to how it all began. Thus pointing to, as called 2 Conquer so eloquently stated, GOD. And there is no theory in the world that is ever going to prove or disprove Him. And all will be dumbfounded upon His return for all wisdom of man will be disproved....Hehehehe....it just makes me giggle that so much time is spent trying to disprove God, even through science. Jer 9:23 Thus says the LORD:"Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom,Let not the mighty man glory in his might,Nor let the rich man glory in his riches; Jer 9:24 But let him who glories glory in this,That he understands and knows Me,That I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth.For in these I delight," says the LORD. 1Cr 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 1Cr 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.