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Question about heaven

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by jburic09032, May 7, 2008.

  1. teamventure

    teamventure Active Member

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    Arnie, that is a long story i'd love to read. could you share with me your journey to heaven?
     
  2. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, ENOCH2010.

    Careful, brother. You must word it correctly. The body dies and the SPIRIT returns to God that gave it. The soul simply ceases to exist until the spirit and the body are re-united, because the "soul" (Hebrew: nefesh; Greek psuchee) is the COMBINATION of the body (Hebrew: geviyah; Greek: sooma) and the spirit (Hebrew: ruach; Greek: pneuma).
     
  3. us2are1

    us2are1 Son Of Man

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    No one is going to heaven. Heaven is Gods throne where God who is Spirit sits. He and His throne are all around you.

    13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
     
  4. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    You are correct again Roy,thank you for a brotherly correction.
     
  5. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! 'TreeOfLife'

    I found your interest concerning the 'spirit body' very intriguing. So, I would like to contribute to a discussion about it.
    It's a little risky to name it a 'spirit body'; the term 'spiritual body' would be more in keeping with Scripture, (1Cor 15:44).

    Every human has two 'bodies'; a visible/natural body and an invisible/spiritual body. Yeah, you'll probably find this shocking ... maybe even suspect it as heresy. :)
    Remind yourself of the following Scriptures:
    "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son", (Col 1:13),
    "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there", (Phil 3:20).
    "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus", (Eph 2:6).
    Did you notice any striking similarity with these Scriptures?
    Well, if you look closely, you'll notice that all these verses are in the PAST tense ... already accomplished.
    HATH DELIVERED, HATH TRANSLATED, IS in heaven, HATH raised us up, MADE us sit .
    Is it your physical body which is enjoying a heavenly citizenship?
    Is it your physical body which has been translated, raised up and seated in heavenly places?

    The apostle Paul explained it this way: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body", 1Cor 15:44).

    How about you answer this question for yourself: When you physically die and your flesh and bones decay to dust, does your physical body somehow become glued back together to take its eternal place in heaven?
    Hardly likely, ay?

    Your spiritual body is constituted by that which is invisible about you ... your "inner man" ... your "hidden man of the heart" ... your human spirit ... your soul.
    Your spiritual body is spirit and therefore eternal. Your physical body is temporal and returns to dust.
    The REAL you is invisible ... your true identity is "hidden" in the Kingdom of Heaven (the invisible world of the spirits) ... whether that be in the atmosphere of the kingdom of God or in the atmosphere of the kingdom of darkness.
    If it were possible to shred your physical body into tiny microscopic pieces. would you discover the substance of a thought? The ability of love? No. These are the invisible properties of your invisible (spiritual) existence. Your physical body only mirrors that which first originated from out of the unseen dimension of your existence.
    Your physical body could easily be compared to a TV screen; it displays images of a reality which is occurring in a television studio located hundreds of miles distant.

    So it becomes true that every man simultaneously exists in two dimensions; the seen and the unseen ... the visible and invisible ... the earthly and the heavenly.

    There is, of course, a lot more that can be said about our spiritual existence ... about what it means to be a 'spiritual man' ... a 'spiritual being' ... what the Bible calls a "new creature' ... about how our spiritual body was resurrected (evaporated) from the sea of Death and has now assumed it's rightful position in the kingdom of God.

    Hopefully this will have given you some keys of knowledge to discover more.
     
  6. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Will we recognize our family and friends in Heaven? OF Course!!! Moreover, I believe we will recognize... everyone in Heaven and furthermore, perhaps we will even recognize people we never met as though we always knew them!!! What is my qualifier??? Simple... Have you ever met someone for the first time and experienced the feeling like you have always known them? I know I have. Imagine that ability un-bridled by the power of God. In a vision I met Jesus...it was like I always knew him. ( Jesus only asked me.. how I was doing ) which i think was profound!

    Imagine we are incomplete on earth and just as our family can make us feel more complete... we will feel fully complete in Heaven in the presence of God. Jesus. the prophets and all the other people... that this uniting of us with everyone else in Heaven actually fully completes us. No matter where you venture you never ever fell alone.
     
  7. teamventure

    teamventure Active Member

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    terry, it's our uniting with our Lord God that will complete us, not our uniting with everyone else in heaven.
    as for your Jesus vision, i remain skeptical.
     
  8. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, MTPockets.

    Actually, it is VERY LIKELY! Ever read these passages before?

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    KJV


    1 Corinthians 15:50-54
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    KJV


    There IS a Resurrection coming, and it is THEN that we receive our "spiritual bodies." And, "spiritual bodies" are NOT "invisible/spiritual" bodies! Was Yeshua` invisible after He rose from the dead? And, when He shall come, we shall be like Him!

    1 John 3:2
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    KJV


    And, HOW was/is He?

    Luke 24:33-43
    33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
    34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
    35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
    36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,
    Peace be unto you.
    37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
    38 And he said unto them,
    Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
    41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
    Have ye here any meat?
    42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
    43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
    KJV


    John 20:24-27
    24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
    25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

    26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
    27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    KJV

    "Glued back together?" Who do you think formed us in the first place?!

    John 1:1-3, 14
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    ...

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    KJV


    Genesis 2:7
    7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    KJV


    So, God performs another creative act. So WHAT?! Can't He do whatever He wants to do?! He IS God, after all! Never, NEVER, NEVER take the Resurrection as some "figurative language" that really meant something else! We will LITERALLY get our bodies back! They'll be transformed into a "sooma pneumatikos," a "BLASTING BODY," instead of just a "sooma psuchikos," just a "BREATHING BODY," but they'll be OUR bodies re-created and every bit as physical as Yeshua`s body was/is!

    This is our Blessed Hope! And, that is "hope" in the 1611 understanding of the word! We would say "Assurance" or "Confidence," today. Thus, it is our Blessed Assurance or our Blessed Confidence! We can KNOW and REST ASSURED that we will be resurrected back to life!

    ------------------------

    Shalom, teamventure.

    "Complete" is treated as a relative word, today, but when we are talking about our eternal destiny, it should be an absolute word, an all-encompassing word. While it is true that being one with YHWH Eloheinu (our LORD God) will MAKE us complete, terry does make the point well that part of being complete will be when we have KOL hamishpachah (the WHOLE family) present all together for the first time.

    When I was searching for a wife back in my college days, I learned that the best way to find a godly wife was to draw closer to God. If I was growing into a closer walk with God, and my wife-to-be was growing into a closer walk with God from her perspective, then it wouldn't be long before we were all three walking together! And, that is what I did. I focused on God instead of girls, and it wasn't very long before I met the most beautiful girl in the world! She stood out to me from the rest of the population on that Bible college campus! She was my ideal girl in body, character, strength, and love for God! I so knew that she was God's choice for me, that I asked her to marry me after two weeks of dating. She waited another week before saying yes. LOL! We waited most of a year (couldn't wait a full year) before we married, but we've been married for 31 years now, and through many ups and downs, we've stuck it out, and I love her more today than ever. We'll have our 32nd anniversary in January.

    My point in all of this is just to say that when we and all the others who are our loved ones and loved ones of those who are close to us are all gathered together as one in Him, then we'll be finally complete. No missing pieces. I couldn't imagine a "Heaven" (or rather, a New Earth) without my wife. But, through God's providence, I don't have to avoid such an imagination. She's His daughter every bit as much as I'm His son.

    Being a Messianic Jew, I know the importance that is placed on FAMILY, on MISHPACHAH, in the Bible! It is the focus throughout the Tanakh (the OT), and it is stressed throughout the Bible! What were the children of Isra'el if not CHILDREN of Isra'el (Ya`aqov or Jacob)? Ya`aqov was one of the sons of Yitschaq (Isaac), who in turn was one of the sons of Avraham (Abraham)! EVERY ONE of the "heroes" in the Tanakh were part of the FAMILY! Even the names we call them today are either directly or indirectly referring to their family links! When we call them "Jews," the word comes from the Hebrew word "Y'hudiym," which means those "of-Y'hudah" or "those of Judah," a plural word. It's a word that means they are children of Y'hudah, who was one of the twelve sons of Isra'el! When we call them "Isra'elites" or "Isra'elis," these words come from the Hebrew word "Isra'eliym," which means those "of-Isra'el!" It, too, is a plural word that means they are children of Isra'el, that they belong to Isra'el!

    Every believer today, whether a Jew or a Goy, is reconnected or connected for the first time into His family. We become bneey Elohiym, sons (or children) of God!

    1 John 3:1-2
    1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    KJV
     
  9. teamventure

    teamventure Active Member

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    nice Retrobyter, a pleasant read as usual.
     
  10. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    teamventure Maybe i sould elabroate... I know i will probably be unable to express this as well as another may be capable of and still less than God or Jesus could, but here goes.... the completion of God is the returning to him of us. And so the uniting of us is the completion of us as well. Surely this may be expressed better. Allow me some lateral movement here... Angels rejoyce when another person enters the fold of a Christian giving their life to God... Why? --- another proof of completion.

    Retrobyter... nice!

    As far as the vision of me seein Jesus, i am ok with you being skeptical, i would be as well. But there is yet another vision... i did not see it thou... and I am real certain i could have if I wanted or needed, but i was quite ok without seeing. I was in a dispute with my x-wife over custody of my son. Because we lived in different counties she was able to stop him from attending the school in my county. He had already missed the first two weeks. i went to my doctor at that time, a foot doctor that I had been teaching prophecy to, and he came into the exam rroom i was in. He told me upon entering that there was an angel seated next to me and the angel had a book. he angel opened the book and it was my son's grades... page after page of A's. I took cvustody of my son and got him enrolled. When he was with my x, his gradfes was below average, however in the first 6 weeks of school in my custody his grades were so good he was on the merit roll... remember he changed schools and missed the first 2 weeks. From then on he was on the honor roll and has a stack of honor roll certificates to back that up. he never missed the honor roll through 4 years until he graduated. This radical change in grades can be verified. So how does onee go from below average to near str8 A's? You are allowed to continue being skeeptical. My son is now an engineer and flys all over the world and has a hollywood ca address. God is great. Yet there is one more vision....even greater.
     
  11. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    Some day you will. The story has not been made public yet.

    It is a very detailed document , it indicates a recent fulfillment of OT prophecy (specific to Israel) , it stands up to all scrutiny , is factual and provable.

    It is positive in context (good news)

    It also confirms the accuracy of scripture in a profound and explicit manner.

    That's all I can say for now.

    Keep your eyes on Israel. The Lord has shifted his focus back to His chosen nation.

    We should too.

    Best wishes.
     
  12. us2are1

    us2are1 Son Of Man

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    You all have Zeus's heaven mixed up with God.

    The Only true Heaven is the throne where God the Spirit Sits.

    If you are not already standing upright in that heaven then you are lost.
     
  13. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Son of Man.

    Tell me: How does a Spirit "sit?"

    The author of Hebrews tells us:

    Hebrews 12:22-24
    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly (Greek: epouranioo = "of" or "from above the sky") Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
    KJV


    The only "Heaven" that exists is the New Jerusalem, currently being built out in space (Greek: epouranios = "of" or "from above the sky," Hebrews 12:22 compared to 1 Corinthians 15:40-41) that will descend to the New Earth after the Great White Throne Judgment.

    1 Corinthians 15:40-41
    40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: somata epourania = "bodies of" or "from above the sky"), and bodies terrestrial (somata epigeia = "bodies of" or "from above the ground"): but the glory of the celestial (Greek: toon epouranioon = "the of" or "from above the sky") is one, and the glory of the terrestrial (Greek: toon epigeioon = "the of" or "from above the ground") is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    KJV


    Yeshua` said,

    John 14:1-3
    14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    KJV


    His "Father's house" IS the New Jerusalem for here is what we find in Revelation 21:

    Revelation 21:1-3
    21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ouranos = the "sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = a Bedouin "tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell (Greek: skeenoosei = "he will tent; he will camp") with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    KJV


    This is the same kind of "tent" as Avraham (Abraham) lived in when he moved to the Land God promised him:

    Hebrews 11:8-10
    8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
    9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: skeenais = Bedouin "tents") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
    KJV


    It used to be (and still is in Saudi Arabia) that nomadic Bedouins would live in a large tent so they could follow the herds of cattle. When children grew old enough to take a wife and live separately from the rest of the family, the father of the tribe would add on another room to the tent for the newlyweds and his tent was ever growing with each new generation. Only if it became impractical to continue that practice would a new tent be constructed. However, even then, they dwelt together in a "tent city." They were all one large extended family!

    The New Jerusalem IS that "city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." And, where in Scripture do we find that Avraham looked for such a city? It just so happened that after Avraham paid tithes to God in Genesis 14 through Malkhiy-Tsedeq, the King of Righteousness, who was also the King of Salem, or the King of Peace, that in Genesis 15:2 He first used the word "Adonay" or "Adonai" (Strong's OT:136) which stems from "adown" (Strong's OT:113), meaning "sovereign" or "controller" or "master" from which we get our word "mister." In 1611 English, they used the word "lord" or "Lord" in translation. However, another word that also comes from "adown" (Strong's OT:113) is "eden" (Strong's OT:115, not the same as Eden in Genesis chapters 2 and 3, btw), and "eden" means "FOUNDATION!" Thus, a "sovereign" or "controller" or "master" was one who laid a city's foundations such as Qayin (Cain) did with the city Chanokh (Enoch), named after his son (Genesis 4), and Nimrowd (Nimrod) did with the city Bavel (Babylon) (Genesis 10)! The words "adon" (a variation of "adown") and "eden" are spelled the same in Hebrew, alef-dalet-nuwn ('-d-n).

    The New Jerusalem is also tied to the word "Paradise":

    There are only three places in the NT that use the word "paradise," a transliteration of the Greek word "paradeisos":

    Luke 23:39-43
    39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
    40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
    41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
    42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
    KJV

    Thus, Yeshua` (Jesus) promised him that he would be with Him in paradise.

    2 Corinthians 12:1-4
    12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
    4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    KJV


    And, the best way to understand this "third heaven" is through the text of 2 Peter 3:3-13:

    2 Peter 3:3-13
    3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (#1) were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (This is the world before the Flood.)
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (This is the Flood, the first worldwide catastrophe, which the Arabs say was first predicted by Adam.)
    7 But the heavens (#2) and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (This is the current earth between the Flood and the Fire.)
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (This is the Fire, the second worldwide catastrophe, which the Arabs say was first predicted by Adam.)
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (#3) and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (By comparison, this is the "new heaven and the new earth" that Yochanan or John sees in Revelation 20:1.)
    KJV

    Revelation 2:1-7
    2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
    2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
    3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
    4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
    5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
    6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
    7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
    KJV

    Compare this to Revelation 21:1-22:2:

    Revelation 21:1-22:2
    21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
    11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
    12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
    13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
    14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
    15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
    16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
    17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
    18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
    19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
    20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
    21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
    22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
    24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
    27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
    22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    KJV


    Therefore, I conclude that "paradise," which comes from "paradeisos" in Greek, which in turn comes from "pardeec" in Hebrew and means "park," "orchard" or "forest," is either the New Jerusalem itself or is the park system within the New Jerusalem.

    NT:3857 paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos); of Oriental origin [compare OT:6508]; a park, i.e. (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):
    KJV - paradise.

    OT:6508 pardeec (par-dace'); of foreign origin; a park:
    KJV - forest, orchard.

    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    Can you see how all these verses are fundamentally tied together?

    THIS is how the Bible describes "Heaven."
     
  14. us2are1

    us2are1 Son Of Man

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    Christ ascended into Heaven. where was that heaven?
    Elijah was taken up into heaven. Where was that heaven?

    Heaven is God's throne and the earth is His footstool. The Spirit that is God's feet are sitting on the ground.

    God is out in deep space bringing around the constellations in their season. (Job) At the same time He is feeding the young lions in Africa. All while His feet are sitting on the ground.
     
  15. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, "Son of Man."

    Acts 1:1-12
    1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
    2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
    3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
    9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (Greek: ouranos = "the sky") as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (Greek: ouranos = "the sky")? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (Greek: ouranos = "the sky"), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (Greek: ouranos = "the sky").
    12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
    KJV


    The point was that Yeshua` rose into the sky until a cloud hid Him from their view. When the two men stood beside them in white clothes, they simply asked, "Why are you staring up into the sky?" Certainly, they could not see into some place "in outer space" or beyond! Then, they were told, "This same Yeshua`, who is taken up from you into the sky, shall so come in the same way as you have watched Him go into the sky."

    It was not meant to be anything more mysterious than a man being taken up to disappear among the clouds!

    2 Kings 2:1-15
    1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven (Hebrew: hashaamaayim = "the skies") by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
    2 And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.
    3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
    4 And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.
    5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
    6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.
    7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
    8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
    9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
    10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
    11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven (Hebrew: hashaamaayim = "the skies").
    12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
    13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;
    14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.
    15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
    KJV


    Again, the chariot and horses of fire were only sent to separate Eliyahu from Eliyshaa`; then, the whirlwind or the tornado came and Eliyahu rose into the sky to be seen no more. Tornados are associated with clouds and bad weather, as well; therefore, he, too, disappeared into the clouds!

    Frankly, when the "constellations" come around "in their seasons," is when the EARTH passes around the sun! In other words, it has more to do with the yearly cycle of the earth's revolution around the sun, than "out in deep space." On the other hand, that is still a path that is 93,000,000 miles x 2 pi = 584,335,740 miles long (and significantly more, because the sun and all of the planets with respect to the sun also move around our galaxy).

    I understand your point, namely that God controls the Universe which HE created; therefore, God is EXTRA-Universal! However, what does that truly matter to us, who are restricted to this planet and, so far, its moon? We've only sent probes anywhere else, and they have been restricted (so far) to our solar system. It is important that we keep in mind what is science fact and what is science fiction. Despite STORIES of Star Wars and Star Trek, we've only sent probes to Mars and to other planets in our solar system. We don't know anything about any other star system than what can be deduced from their spectra. We don't have "warp technology" or "light speed" or "impulse engines" or any such inventions. To date, they have NEVER found so much as a microbe on any other planetary object, although "hope springs eternal" in the hearts of humanists and atheists, and they spend billions of dollars on space exploration to find some sign of life elsewhere in the solar system or in the galaxy. They want to find ANYTHING to prove that God may not be the Source of Life! (Even though finding life elsewhere in the Universe does NOT disprove that God was ITS Source, as well!)

    However, none of that proves that WE go anywhere after death, nor does it prove that there is a "Heaven," per se. What we CAN learn from Scripture is that Yeshua` said that He was going to "His Father's house" to "prepare us a place." Whether we go there immediately after death or must wait for our resurrection and for the New Jerusalem to come to us is unclear from Scripture. All that we can rely on are God's promises for a resurrection, for a new body, for a new earth and its new heaven (again, Greek: ouranos = "the sky"), "wherein dwelleth righteousness," and for the New Jerusalem to descend upon that earth.
     
  16. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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  17. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Arnie.

    And, that would be the New Jerusalem where Yeshua` is making a place for each of us, or as the author of Hebrews called it, "mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" (KJV). In Greek, that was "Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos Ierousaleem epouranioo." This is literally, "Zion, mountain and city of the living God, Jerusalem from above the sky." In Hebrew, that would be "Tsiown har v`iyr Elohiym chayiym Yerushaalaim min shaameey hashaamaayim."

    Here, he literally called it a mountain and a city, and that makes sense to me. What else would you call a city that stands 1,500 miles high but a "mountain?" Of course, it hasn't landed, yet, upon the New Earth. It's still under construction out in space, but when it arrives and lands upon the New Earth, it will dwarf Mount Everest (5.5 miles high).
     
  18. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Arnie Manitoba I take it God has assigned you a purpose that is not yet? Welcome to the club.
     
  19. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    I hope the new armor I ordered comes with a built in back scratcher and possibly air conditioning.
     
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