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Question about John 12:40

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by ryangrom, Aug 12, 2007.

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  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The fact still remain that there is no such thing in the Bible as human beings having an immortal soul or an eternal soul. This is and has been my point from the beginning.
    Use whatever word suits you the fact is we are more than flesh and blood we have a soul/spirit . you can call it eternal, Immortal, everlasting,incoruptable what ever you like. God not only forenamed Emmanuel(Jesus), but also Ishmael,Isaac,and John he named them before they were Born he foreknew them. He also promises to change us you can nit pick the word (spirit, spiritual)used but its intent is clear. And if that's not enough We are told to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So whats present with the Lord if not our soul and if you agree we have soul prove its not everlasting and did not pre-exist Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
     
  2. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    Use whatever word suits you the fact is we are more than flesh and blood we have a soul/spirit . you can call it eternal, Immortal, everlasting what ever you like. God not only forenamed Emmanuel(Jesus), but also Ishmael,Isaac,and John he named them before they were Born he foreknew them. He also promises to change us you can nit pick the word (spirit, spiritual)used but its intent is clear. And if that's not enough We are told to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So whats present with the Lord if not our soul and if you agree we have soul prove its not everlasting and did not pre-exist Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    Deffinatly human beings are more than flesh and blood, as the scripture says there is a spirit in man...Job 32:8 (KJV) 8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. All human beings have a spirit in them, but no where in the Bible does it say anything about an eternal soul or immortal spirit.....to believe that would be to go beyond what is revealed in the scriptures. God is God, and He transcend time and space, He knew us before He made us, because it was His plan from eternity to bring us into existence. But even with that truth, there is still no where in the Bible that say our soul/spirit existed eternally or before creation. You may believe that words are not important, but it is…the Bible means what it says and says what it means. If it says one thing but mean something else, then how could we be certain that when God tells us something in it, that He really means what He said in it.
     
  3. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Use whatever word suits you the fact is we are more than flesh and bloodwe have a soul/spirit . you can call it eternal, Immortal, everlasting what ever you like. God not only forenamed Emmanuel(Jesus), but also Ishmael,Isaac,and John he named them before they were Born he foreknew them.He also promises to change us you can nit pick the word (spirit, spiritual)used but its intent is clear.And if that's not enough We are told to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So whats present with the Lord if not our soul and if you agree we have soul prove its not everlasting and did not pre-existRom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    Deffinatly human beings are more than flesh and blood, as the scripture says there is a spirit in man...Job 32:8 (KJV)8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.All human beings have a spirit in them, but no where in the Bible does it say anything about an eternal soul or immortal spirit.....to believe that would be to go beyond what is revealed in the scriptures.God is God, and He transcend time and space, He knew us before He made us, because it was His plan from eternity to bring us into existence. But even with that truth, there is still no where in the Bible that say our soul/spirit existed eternally or before creation.You may believe that words are not important, but it is…the Bible means what it says and says what it means. If it says one thing but mean something else, then how could we be certain that when God tells us something in it, that He really means what He said in it.Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Deffinatly human beings are more than flesh and blood, as the scripture says there is a spirit in man...Job 32:8 (KJV) 8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. All human beings have a spirit in them, but no where in the Bible does it say anything about an eternal soul or immortal spirit.....to believe that would be to go beyond what is revealed in the scriptures. God is God, and He transcend time and space, He knew us before He made us, because it was His plan from eternity to bring us into existence. But even with that truth, there is still no where in the Bible that say our soul/spirit existed eternally or before creation. You may believe that words are not important, but it is…the Bible means what it says and says what it means. If it says one thing but mean something else, then how could we be certain that when God tells us something in it, that He really means what He said in it.
    Well that is exactly what you doing going beyond scripture to say it isnt true.Again you speak in circles. You agree he foreknew us but say we did not existyou agree we are more than flesh and blood. That our soul /spirit goes on after death (of the Body)but it is not eternal ,Immortal,everlasting, You make this claim without any scripture to back you up. I dont know what you call it if he foreknew us we were there before birth, we go on after death that is scripture what word would you suggest we use????
     
  5. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
    The word soul simply means air breathing creature….it is the same as creature that is use for animals. Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV) 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Souls:Hebrew Word: ‏נֶפֶשׁ‎Transliteration: nepeshPhonetic Pronunciation: neh'-feshRoot: from Cross Reference: TWOT - 1395aPart of Speech: n fVine's Words: None from (naphash); properly a breathing creature, i.e. animal or (abstract) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) :- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead (-ly), desire, × [dis-] contented, × fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it. —Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew DictionaryGenesis 1:20 (KJV) 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Creature:Hebrew Word: ‏נֶפֶשׁ‎Transliteration: nepeshPhonetic Pronunciation: neh'-feshRoot: from Cross Reference: TWOT - 1395aPart of Speech: n fVine's Words: None from (naphash); properly a breathing creature, i.e. animal or (abstract) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) :- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead (-ly), desire, × [dis-] contented, × fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it. —Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew DictionaryIn this case the word soul simply means flesh; only flesh and blood need to breath air, that’s why it says a breathing creature. In this case the word soul is not talking about the spirit/mind/intellect, that is in man, but the living body
     
  6. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    Well that is exactly what you doing going beyond scripture to say it isnt true.Again you speak in circles. You agree he foreknew us but say we did not existyou agree we are more than flesh and blood. That our soul /spirit goes on after death (of the Body)but it is not eternal ,Immortal,everlasting, You make this claim without any scripture to back you up. I dont know what you call it if he foreknew us we were there before birth, we go on after death that is scripture what word would you suggest we use????
    If you were before your birth, then tell me what you saw when God was creating the earth, where were you, were you standing on His right side or His left? How did God go about making Adam, did He use clay or was it some other kind of dirt? Describe for me Satan's appearance. Is he tall, short, fat or slim? You should know all these things since you existed before you were born.You might think I am joking but I am not, please tell me these things because you must have seen a lot. Could you describe what king David looked like? What color hair did he have?
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Well that is exactly what you doing going beyond scripture to say it isnt true.Again you speak in circles. You agree he foreknew us but say we did not existyou agree we are more than flesh and blood. That our soul /spirit goes on after death (of the Body)but it is not eternal ,Immortal,everlasting, You make this claim without any scripture to back you up.I dont know what you call it if he foreknew us we were there before birth, we go on after death that is scripture what word would you suggest we use????
    If you were before your birth, then tell me what you saw when God was creating the earth, where were you, were you standing on His right side or His left? How did God go about making Adam, did He use clay or was it some other kind of dirt? Describe for me Satan's appearance. Is he tall, short, fat or slim? You should know all these things since yYou might think I am joking but I am not, please tell me these things because you must have seen a lot. Could you describe what king David looked like? What color hair did he have?ou existed before you were born.The answer is this, We do not know anything. It is unknown to us. God place a veil between the first Earth Age and this second Earth Age. God erased our memory. What we are here for is to make the ultimate decision.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  8. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    verzanumi24
    If you were before your birth, then tell me what you saw when God was creating the earth, where were you, were you standing on His right side or His left? How did God go about making Adam, did He use clay or was it some other kind of dirt? Describe for me Satan's appearance. Is he tall, short, fat or slim? You should know all these things since you existed before you were born.
    Take special note of verse 7,and you should see that we were with the FatherJob 38 1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
     
  9. tim bennett

    tim bennett New Member

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    jesus knew each one of our names before the advent of time. and yes eternal means eteRnal , forever. but jesus knows no confines of time nor space=omniscient and omnipresent=JESUS! LET us just say that satan is a figurative snake , serpent with magical vocal chords. apparently a snake in adams day came in upright and left on his belly.
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    If you were before your birth, then tell me what you saw when God was creating the earth, where were you, were you standing on His right side or His left? How did God go about making Adam, did He use clay or was it some other kind of dirt? Describe for me Satan's appearance. Is he tall, short, fat or slim? You should know all these things since you existed before you were born.You might think I am joking but I am not, please tell me these things because you must have seen a lot. Could you describe what king David looked like? What color hair did he have?
    More games I was quoting from the Word you play games.You Prove I or anyone wasn't with God.are you God? Can you prove he did not foreknow me or you or anyone?? No! you are playing around because you have no real answers. You are trying so hard to show you are so much more knowledgeable than anyone else. Why is this necessary?? can we not learn together???? No one knows all!!!Cant you debate without playing games? Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The word soul simply means air breathing creature….it is the same as creature that is use for animals. Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV) 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Souls:Hebrew Word: ‏נֶפֶשׁ‎Transliteration: nepeshPhonetic Pronunciation: neh'-feshRoot: from Cross Reference: TWOT - 1395aPart of Speech: n fVine's Words: None from (naphash); properly a breathing creature, i.e. animal or (abstract) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) :- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead (-ly), desire, × [dis-] contented, × fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it. —Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew DictionaryGenesis 1:20 (KJV) 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Creature:Hebrew Word: ‏נֶפֶשׁ‎Transliteration: nepeshPhonetic Pronunciation: neh'-feshRoot: from Cross Reference: TWOT - 1395aPart of Speech: n fVine's Words: None from (naphash); properly a breathing creature, i.e. animal or (abstract) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) :- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead (-ly), desire, × [dis-] contented, × fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it. —Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew DictionaryIn this case the word soul simply means flesh; only flesh and blood need to breath air, that’s why it says a breathing creature. In this case the word soul is not talking about the spirit/mind/intellect, that is in man, but the living body
    the word used for Soul in this reference is the femine formnephesh (H5315) 1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passiona) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man[​IMG] living beingc) living being (with life in the blood)d) the man himself, self, person or individuale) seat of the appetitesf) seat of emotions and passionsg) activity of mind1) dubioush) activity of the will1) dubiousi) activity of the character1) dubiousFurthermore threr is so much more to this. The word nephesh occurs 754 times in the Hebrew Old Testament. it is translated "soul" 472 times, while in the other 282 places it is represented by forty-four different words or phrases.So for you to make a statement (quote) The word soul simply means air breathing creature….(quote) Is a complete fabrication of the facts.
     
  12. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    The answer is this, We do not know anything. It is unknown to us. God place a veil between the first Earth Age and this second Earth Age. God erased our memory. What we are here for is to make the ultimate decision.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
    And what scriptures do you have to support all this?
     
  13. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    the word used for Soul in this reference is the femine formnephesh (H5315) 1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passiona) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man[​IMG] living beingc) living being (with life in the blood)d) the man himself, self, person or individuale) seat of the appetitesf) seat of emotions and passionsg) activity of mind1) dubioush) activity of the will1) dubiousi) activity of the character1) dubiousFurthermore threr is so much more to this. The word nephesh occurs 754 times in the Hebrew Old Testament. it is translated "soul" 472 times, while in the other 282 places it is represented by forty-four different words or phrases.So for you to make a statement (quote) The word soul simply means air breathing creature….(quote) Is a complete fabrication of the facts.
    All you are doing is posting what I posted...you are supporting what I am saying, that the word soul in those verses simply means air breathing creature. It is the same Hebrew word that is used for animals.
     
  14. ryangrom

    ryangrom New Member

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    Yes you are right, read also my post on God's plan of salvation. Because of a lack of understanding of God's total plan for man's salvation many Christian/Church believe that those who have not repented, dead or alive are doomed....but not so according to scriptures.
    Verzanumi24, this belief is called universalism. I checked out your your church's website in your signature to get a better understanding of what your beliefs are, and I found that your church affiliation is actually opposed to universalism.Those who have not repented before they die, are doomed. God says we have no excuse.Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.Romans 2:12-16 - All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.God's law is written on EVERY mans heart. Noone has any excuse. One remarkable thing this verse does show is that those people on remote islands who have never heard about Jesus are judged by the law written on their hearts. God agrees that it isnt fair for those people to die because of ignorance so he wrote his law on every mans heart so no man has any excuse and every man has a chance. Of course we all know how infinatelly easier it is to be saved through Christ, and how hard the nature of the Law is to be saved by. Before you shout me down, hear me out.. Faith in God is part of God's Law. Commandment #1 and #2 cant be kept without faith in God. Before the Law was given, Abraham was declared Righteous by God because he believed God and acted on it. A person can still be saved if they have never heard about Christ, by keeping the law in their heart. That's what its there for, too. It isnt just to make us guilty, its also a way for God to make us innocent. James 2:23-And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[a] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.Hebrews 10:16-"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."Thank God with the coming of the new covenant, he wrote his laws on our heart.
     
  15. ryangrom

    ryangrom New Member

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    I could show you verses depicting an eternal hell but you would argue the word eternal as not meaning infinite. So if the law is written on every mans heart and God says that no man have an excuse, then why would he give everyone a second chance of accepting his gift after they die? You do realise the danger in what you are saying? You are removing the urgency for evangelising the lost by basically saying "they'll get a second chance anyways".
     
  16. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    I could show you verses depicting an eternal hell but you would argue the word eternal as not meaning infinite. So if the law is written on every mans heart and God says that no man have an excuse, then why would he give everyone a second chance of accepting his gift after they die? You do realise the danger in what you are saying? You are removing the urgency for evangelising the lost by basically saying "they'll get a second chance anyways".
    Amen ryan:)I also told him that he sounds like universalist.love, hitomi
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    All you are doing is posting what I posted...you are supporting what I am saying, that the word soul in those verses simply means air breathing creature. It is the same Hebrew word that is used for animals.
    No I expanded upon your post to show your conclusions inaccurate
     
  18. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

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    No, not every human being will be saved (unfortunatly a few will still reject what God is offering them), but from what I have seen in the scriptures I believe that the vast majority will be saved.
    Excuse me but I believe the words that Jesus said was that, Wide is the road that leads to destruction, but narrow is the road that leads to heaven!
     
  19. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    And with Jody's very true post Im ending this thread it going around in circles everyone pretty much agrees cept one. And it is going completely off topic. If anyone wants to continue this topic please start a new thread
     
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