[Question]Genesis 17:8

[ThePuffyBlob]

Genesis 17:1-10
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

The Ottoman Empire ruled over the land of Israel from the early 16th century until the end of World War I in 1918. This period lasted for approximately 400 years.

Does this imply that even though the Ottoman Empire had occupied Israel, Israeli citizens persisted in the region? Furthermore, does it suggest that they were not forcibly displaced from the land of Canaan? Does it hold true that despite numerous changes in leadership, the Israeli populace has never been dispossessed from the Promised Land?

 

[Davy]

Genesis 17:1-10
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

The Ottoman Empire ruled over the land of Israel from the early 16th century until the end of World War I in 1918. This period lasted for approximately 400 years.

Does this imply that even though the Ottoman Empire had occupied Israel, Israeli citizens persisted in the region? Furthermore, does it suggest that they were not forcibly displaced from the land of Canaan? Does it hold true that despite numerous changes in leadership, the Israeli populace has never been dispossessed from the Promised Land?

Are you confusing God's promise to Abraham that his seed would inherit the lands of Canaan to mean a perpetual possessing of those lands through all of Israel's generations?

That is kind of absolutist thinking that is unrealistic per Bible history, don't you think? especially since more than once God brought Israel's enemies upon their lands and removed almost all of them, more than once in history.

See 1 Kings 11 where God promised that He would always leave "one tribe" at Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake. That would be the tribe of Judah (Jews). So yes, throughout all the various diaspora's of the children of Israel out of the holy land, a small remnant of Judah has always remained there.

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

Are you confusing God's promise to Abraham

Perhaps you are correct. just forget about this ⇩

only that particular era?

 

[Davy]

Perhaps you are correct. just forget about this ⇩

No problem brother, I'm just trying to get you to think on it deeper.

 

[quietthinker]

However, did not God specify that this promise was to abraham and his descendants, ensuring its everlasting nature during only that particular era?

John the Baptist qualifies the idea of 'Abraham and his descendants' in Matthew 3:9 'And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.'
He was of course speaking to those who thought they had an advantage because of their genetic heritage. They were in error.
Jesus gives a further perspective re how to understand the term 'Father' in John 8:44 'You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.'

The promise to Abraham belongs to people of faith and Canaan is figurative for the whole planet. Jesus put it this way in Matthew 5:5 'Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth'

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

John the Baptist qualifies the idea of 'Abraham and his descendants' in Matthew 3:9 'And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.'
He was of course speaking to those who thought they had an advantage because of their genetic heritage. They were in error.
Jesus gives a further perspective re how to understand the term 'Father' in John 8:44 'You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.'

The promise to Abraham belongs to people of faith and Canaan is figurative for the whole planet. Jesus put it this way in Matthew 5:5 'Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth'

Sorry I forgot to delete.

 

[FaithWillDo]

John the Baptist qualifies the idea of 'Abraham and his descendants' in Matthew 3:9 'And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.'
He was of course speaking to those who thought they had an advantage because of their genetic heritage. They were in error.
Jesus gives a further perspective re how to understand the term 'Father' in John 8:44 'You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.'

The promise to Abraham belongs to people of faith and Canaan is figurative for the whole planet. Jesus put it this way in Matthew 5:5 'Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth'

Dear quietthinker,

At first, you are on the right track when you said that the promises to Abraham are for his spiritual seed. The flesh counts for nothing. But then you revert back to a carnal understanding of God's Word by saying that the inheritance which the spiritual seed will receive is physical (physical earth/physical Promised Land).

Since the descendants of Abraham are spiritual, the inheritance is likewise spiritual.

The Promised Land is a spiritual symbol which represents salvation. It is not a physical piece of land. Also, the "earth" that the Elect will inherit is referring to the New Earth. The New Earth is also a spiritual symbol. It represents a person's new spiritual nature that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will give them.

Paul said this:

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

This concept applies to more than just a natural body coming first, it also applies to how we understand God's Word. After a person is called out from the world (Early Rain), they will remain carnal in their understanding of scripture. After they are converted (Latter Rain), their understanding of will become spiritual. That is when God's Word will open up to their understanding.

Remember that Christ said His words are "spirit" (John 6:63). They are NOT carnal words which teach physical things. His "spirit" words teach spiritual things. The spiritual does not happen out in the world where physical eyes can see them. The spiritual happens within mankind; between the ears, so to speak.

When an Elect believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit, Christ will heal their spiritual blindness (Mark 8:21-25). It is only at that point that God's Word will open up to their understanding.

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit on the Damascus Road. That is the time when he first called Jesus "Lord". But Paul could not "see" Christ. Paul could hear a voice but had to ask who it was. Paul then became physically blind to represent his spiritual blindness. Then after Paul spent three days in Damascus where he could not eat or drink (represents his not being able to eat the true bread from heaven or drink the New Wine), Christ came to Paul a "second time" (typed by Ananias) and poured out the Latter Rain. It was at that time that the scales fell off Paul's eyes and he could "see". Paul was then told to eat "meat" (the strongest part of God's Word).

To understand God's Word, one must have spiritual eyes and ears.

The promises made to Abraham are for his spiritual seed and the inheritance that they will receive is likewise spiritual.

Joe

 

[Jay Ross]

To understand God's Word, one must have spiritual eyes and ears.

The sad part is that many people do not know that they lack these spiritual eyes and ears, but pontificate anyway.

 

[FaithWillDo]

The sad part is that many people do not know that they lack these spiritual eyes and ears, but pontificate anyway.

Dear Jay Ross,
That is true. When a believer is spiritually blind, Satan can and does easily them. And when a person is deceived, they cannot know it. That is the nature of deception.
Joe

 

[Jay Ross]

Dear Jay Ross,
That is true. When a believer is spiritually blind, Satan can and does easily them. And when a person is deceived, they cannot know it. That is the nature of deception.
Joe

Then why have you continued your pontification.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Then why have you continued your pontification.

Dear Jay Ross,
I continue because I was converted in 2005 and was given "eyes that can see".

Do you believe that all the churches of the world are apostate?

Shortly after Paul's death, the spirit of anti-Christ came into the church and did not spare any of the sheep. Since that time, all the churches have been following another Jesus, with another spirit, and teaching another gospel.

Satan's deception is so strong, no unconverted believer (Early Rain only) is spared from it:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Christ said this about it, too:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

If you can't "see" that the church is apostate, then you have not seen the Abomination of Desolation, nor has the "man of sin" been revealed to you.

Joe

 

[quietthinker]

Dear quietthinker,

At first, you are on the right track when you said that the promises to Abraham are for his spiritual seed. The flesh counts for nothing. But then you revert back to a carnal understanding of God's Word by saying that the inheritance which the spiritual seed will receive is physical (physical earth/physical Promised Land).

Since the descendants of Abraham are spiritual, the inheritance is likewise spiritual.

The Promised Land is a spiritual symbol which represents salvation. It is not a physical piece of land. Also, the "earth" that the Elect will inherit is referring to the New Earth. The New Earth is also a spiritual symbol. It represents a person's new spiritual nature that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will give them.

Paul said this:

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

This concept applies to more than just a natural body coming first, it also applies to how we understand God's Word. After a person is called out from the world (Early Rain), they will remain carnal in their understanding of scripture. After they are converted (Latter Rain), their understanding of will become spiritual. That is when God's Word will open up to their understanding.

Remember that Christ said His words are "spirit" (John 6:63). They are NOT carnal words which teach physical things. His "spirit" words teach spiritual things. The spiritual does not happen out in the world where physical eyes can see them. The spiritual happens within mankind; between the ears, so to speak.

When an Elect believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit, Christ will heal their spiritual blindness (Mark 8:21-25). It is only at that point that God's Word will open up to their understanding.

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit on the Damascus Road. That is the time when he first called Jesus "Lord". But Paul could not "see" Christ. Paul could hear a voice but had to ask who it was. Paul then became physically blind to represent his spiritual blindness. Then after Paul spent three days in Damascus where he could not eat or drink (represents his not being able to eat the true bread from heaven or drink the New Wine), Christ came to Paul a "second time" (typed by Ananias) and poured out the Latter Rain. It was at that time that the scales fell off Paul's eyes and he could "see". Paul was then told to eat "meat" (the strongest part of God's Word).

To understand God's Word, one must have spiritual eyes and ears.

The promises made to Abraham are for his spiritual seed and the inheritance that they will receive is likewise spiritual.

Joe

I think they are both Joe. Rightly dividing would in this case be appropriate. For example, when Paul spoke about how things will transpire at the return of Jesus (1 Thess. 4:16-17, 1 Cor. 15:50-54) he was talking about a physical reality. The New Earth is also a physical reality.

 

[strepho]

Genesis chapter 48 . The blessings and birthright of Israel. The 12 tribes have this. Judah has the Scepter. The right to rule.

Hosea chapter 1 and leviticus chapter 26
God blesses and curses people. Some people think their caucasian. When America is Israel.

Judah is tiny Israel. True Israel is America.
Isaiah chapter 18 is bible prophecy about America.
Jeremiah chapter 24 is bible prophecy about Jews and kenites.
In 1948, Jews established tiny Israel. They planted a fig tree. America and Britain were the first to recognize tiny Israel.

I'm Matthew chapter 24 . Jesus says learn parable of the fig tree. The last generation started in 1948. Get the picture.

Revelation chapter 13 . United nations is one world political system. Near future, receives deadly wound. At the 6th trump, satan as antichrist will heal deadly wound. By establishing world peace. Its 5 month period.

Isaiah chapter 59 . About the spirtualty blind. False preachers who mislead people with traditions of men and false doctrine.

Those groping in the dark. These are people who are desperate for the truth. But the fake shepherds put stumbling block before them. Being biblically illiterate is dangerous.

Antichrist is coming near future. And the majority don't have the gospel armour on.

Ephesians chapter 6
Knowledge and wisdom of God's word is gospel armour.

I hope this helps.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Genesis chapter 48 . The blessings and birthright of Israel. The 12 tribes have this. Judah has the Scepter. The right to rule.

Hosea chapter 1 and leviticus chapter 26
God blesses and curses people. Some people think their caucasian. When America is Israel.

Judah is tiny Israel. True Israel is America.
Isaiah chapter 18 is bible prophecy about America.
Jeremiah chapter 24 is bible prophecy about Jews and kenites.
In 1948, Jews established tiny Israel. They planted a fig tree. America and Britain were the first to recognize tiny Israel.

I'm Matthew chapter 24 . Jesus says learn parable of the fig tree. The last generation started in 1948. Get the picture.

Revelation chapter 13 . United nations is one world political system. Near future, receives deadly wound. At the 6th trump, satan as antichrist will heal deadly wound. By establishing world peace. Its 5 month period.

Isaiah chapter 59 . About the spirtualty blind. False preachers who mislead people with traditions of men and false doctrine.

Those groping in the dark. These are people who are desperate for the truth. But the fake shepherds put stumbling block before them. Being biblically illiterate is dangerous.

Antichrist is coming near future. And the majority don't have the gospel armour on.

Ephesians chapter 6
Knowledge and wisdom of God's word is gospel armour.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Genesis chapter 48 . The blessings and birthright of Israel. The 12 tribes have this. Judah has the Scepter. The right to rule.

Hosea chapter 1 and leviticus chapter 26
God blesses and curses people. Some people think their caucasian. When America is Israel.

Judah is tiny Israel. True Israel is America.
Isaiah chapter 18 is bible prophecy about America.
Jeremiah chapter 24 is bible prophecy about Jews and kenites.
In 1948, Jews established tiny Israel. They planted a fig tree. America and Britain were the first to recognize tiny Israel.

I'm Matthew chapter 24 . Jesus says learn parable of the fig tree. The last generation started in 1948. Get the picture.

Revelation chapter 13 . United nations is one world political system. Near future, receives deadly wound. At the 6th trump, satan as antichrist will heal deadly wound. By establishing world peace. Its 5 month period.

Isaiah chapter 59 . About the spirtualty blind. False preachers who mislead people with traditions of men and false doctrine.

Those groping in the dark. These are people who are desperate for the truth. But the fake shepherds put stumbling block before them. Being biblically illiterate is dangerous.

Antichrist is coming near future. And the majority don't have the gospel armour on.

Ephesians chapter 6
Knowledge and wisdom of God's word is gospel armour.

I hope this helps.

I see a separation in Judah and Israel.

 

[quietthinker]

Genesis chapter 48 . The blessings and birthright of Israel. The 12 tribes have this. Judah has the Scepter. The right to rule.

Hosea chapter 1 and leviticus chapter 26
God blesses and curses people. Some people think their caucasian. When America is Israel.

Judah is tiny Israel. True Israel is America.
Isaiah chapter 18 is bible prophecy about America.
Jeremiah chapter 24 is bible prophecy about Jews and kenites.
In 1948, Jews established tiny Israel. They planted a fig tree. America and Britain were the first to recognize tiny Israel.

I'm Matthew chapter 24 . Jesus says learn parable of the fig tree. The last generation started in 1948. Get the picture.

Revelation chapter 13 . United nations is one world political system. Near future, receives deadly wound. At the 6th trump, satan as antichrist will heal deadly wound. By establishing world peace. Its 5 month period.

Isaiah chapter 59 . About the spirtualty blind. False preachers who mislead people with traditions of men and false doctrine.

Those groping in the dark. These are people who are desperate for the truth. But the fake shepherds put stumbling block before them. Being biblically illiterate is dangerous.

Antichrist is coming near future. And the majority don't have the gospel armour on.

Ephesians chapter 6
Knowledge and wisdom of God's word is gospel armour.

I hope this helps.

Interpretation is tricky when a faulty paradigm is assumed as a correct one.
The Jews in Jesus time had a faulty paradigm, even the disciples. It wasn't definitively corrected for the disciples till they saw the resurrected Jesus.
Incidentally, have you wondered why Jesus never revealed himself to those responsible for his crucifixion after his resurrection?

 

[FaithWillDo]

I think they are both Joe. Rightly dividing would in this case be appropriate. For example, when Paul spoke about how things will transpire at the return of Jesus (1 Thess. 4:16-17, 1 Cor. 15:50-54) he was talking about a physical reality. The New Earth is also a physical reality.

Dear quietthinker,
Yes, we need to "rightly divide the Word". We divide it by the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is physical and outward and is based upon the works of man. The New Covenant is spiritual and inward and is based upon the works of Christ.

In the verses below, Paul says that the inheritance is spiritual and not physical as you believe:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of Promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The Holy Spirit that we receive now is the down payment of our inheritance until we receive a spiritual body upon our resurrection from the grave.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

After an Elect person is resurrected, they will have a New Heaven (Mind of Christ) and a New Earth (spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit). The Old Heaven (carnal mind) and the Old Earth (carnal spiritual nature) will have been destroyed by judgment.

Then, in the final age, the Elect will reign with Christ in judgment over the "lost". But before the "lost" perish (the penalty of sin), Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the faith they need to open the door to His grace:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Justice is served by the spiritual destruction of the person (their old heaven and earth).

Because Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment, every person who has ever lived will be saved (1Tim 2:3-6). This will complete the ages and Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to His Father. God will then be "all in all" because all who died "in Adam" have been made alive "in Christ" (1Cor 15:20-28).

You mentioned 1Thes 4:16-17 & 1Cor 15:50-54. Those scriptures are teaching about the bodily resurrection ("the redemption of our body") which occurs at the end of this age. They are not teaching about the Second Coming of Christ to His Elect.

The Second Coming of Christ is spiritual and is when Christ returns to give the Elect the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is when the Elect are saved:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The Second Coming of Christ is a part of the marriage analogy used in scripture. That analogy teaches the pathway to salvation the Elect will travel.

When Christ gives the Early Rain to one of His Elect, they become espoused to Christ. Christ then goes away to prepare for the marriage ceremony and a place where they will live together. When Christ returns for His Bride, He pours out the Latter Rain upon them and He spiritually gathers them to dwell with Him in heaven. This event is called the Marriage of the Lamb. It is followed by the Marriage Supper when Christ feeds His new Bride the truth of God's Word (bread and meat). This is possible now because the believer's spiritual blindness was healed when they received the Latter Rain (Mark 8:21-25).

The complete marriage analogy happens during the lifetime of each of the Elect. It is not a future one-time event as is commonly taught.

The only event that happens at the end of the age is the bodily resurrection from the grave. All other end-time prophecies are fulfilled spiritually within each of the Elect before they die. That is why Revelation says that the Elect will "keep the sayings of the prophecy" and that the "time is at hand" for their fulfillment. And that is why Christ said that He would "come quickly".

Christ has been coming quickly to all of His Elect of this age because His coming is a reoccurring SPIRITUAL event that brings salvation to them. It is not a one-time future event as taught by the apostate church.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev 11:17 saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.

Joe

 

[quietthinker]

Dear quietthinker,
Yes, we need to "rightly divide the Word". We divide it by the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is physical and outward and is based upon the works of man. The New Covenant is spiritual and inward and is based upon the works of Christ.

In the verses below, Paul says that the inheritance is spiritual and not physical as you believe:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of Promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The Holy Spirit that we receive now is the down payment of our inheritance until we receive a spiritual body upon our resurrection from the grave.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

After an Elect person is resurrected, they will have a New Heaven (Mind of Christ) and a New Earth (spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit). The Old Heaven (carnal mind) and the Old Earth (carnal spiritual nature) will have been destroyed by judgment.

Then, in the final age, the Elect will reign with Christ in judgment over the "lost". But before the "lost" perish (the penalty of sin), Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the faith they need to open the door to His grace:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Justice is served by the spiritual destruction of the person (their old heaven and earth).

Because Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment, every person who has ever lived will be saved (1Tim 2:3-6). This will complete the ages and Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to His Father. God will then be "all in all" because all who died "in Adam" have been made alive "in Christ" (1Cor 15:20-28).

You mentioned 1Thes 4:16-17 & 1Cor 15:50-54. Those scriptures are teaching about the bodily resurrection ("the redemption of our body") which occurs at the end of this age. They are not teaching about the Second Coming of Christ to His Elect.

The Second Coming of Christ is spiritual and is when Christ returns to give the Elect the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is when the Elect are saved:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The Second Coming of Christ is a part of the marriage analogy used in scripture. That analogy teaches the pathway to salvation the Elect will travel.

When Christ gives the Early Rain to one of His Elect, they become espoused to Christ. Christ then goes away to prepare for the marriage ceremony and a place where they will live together. When Christ returns for His Bride, He pours out the Latter Rain upon them and He spiritually gathers them to dwell with Him in heaven. This event is called the Marriage of the Lamb. It is followed by the Marriage Supper when Christ feeds His new Bride the truth of God's Word (bread and meat). This is possible now because the believer's spiritual blindness is healed when they receive the Latter Rain (Mark 8:21-25).

The complete marriage analogy happens during the lifetime of each of the Elect. It is not a future one-time event as is commonly taught.

The only event that happens at the end of the age is the bodily resurrection from the grave. All other end-time prophecy is fulfilled spiritually within each of the Elect before they die. That is why Revelation says that the Elect will "keep the sayings of the prophecy" and that the "time is at hand" for their fulfillment. And that is why Christ said that He would "come quickly".

Christ has been coming quickly to all of His Elect of this age because His coming is a reoccurring SPIRITUAL event that brings salvation to them. It is not a one-time future event as taught by the apostate church.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev 11:17 saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.

Joe

I think you've made it far too complicated Joe.

 

[Jay Ross]

Dear Jay Ross,
I continue because I was converted in 2005 and was given "eyes that can see".

Do you believe that all the churches of the world are apostate?

Shortly after Paul's death, the spirit of anti-Christ came into the church and did not spare any of the sheep. Since that time, all the churches have been following another Jesus, with another spirit, and teaching another gospel.

Satan's deception is so strong, no unconverted believer (Early Rain only) is spared from it:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Christ said this about it, too:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

If you can't "see" that the church is apostate, then you have not seen the Abomination of Desolation, nor has the "man of sin" been revealed to you.

Joe

And you are still pontificating.

You are making the Gospel very complicated and you seem to be very judgemental.

Have a good day now.

Goodbye.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I think you've made it far too complicated Joe.

Dear quietthinker,
The pathway to salvation is a little complicated but once a person understands it, it's not hard to "see" in scripture.

Have you ever wondered why Paul's conversion experience contains so many usual details? Those details are there to teach the pathway to salvation the Elect will travel.

Here is what Paul said about his conversion experience:

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul's conversion experience is a "type" which teaches the pathway to salvation.

The pathway to salvation is taught "here a little and there a little" (Isa 28:9-12) in most of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. However, their teachings (like Paul's conversion) are presented in Christ's spiritual language so that only the converted Elect believers can understand them.

Here is a quick summary of the pathway:

• The receiving of the Early Rain of the Spirit and entering the church.
• The coming of the spirit of anti-Christ to the believer and their consuming of leavened bread.
• Falling away, the Abomination of Desolation and becoming a Man of Sin.
• Hearing and answering the call of Elijah so that the pathway for Christ is made straight.
• The Second Coming of Christ when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and seals the Elect believer.
• Spiritual blindness is healed.
• Marriage Supper when the believer consumes milk, bread, meat and New Wine.
• From their knowledge of the truth, Christ spiritually appears and gathers the believer to dwell with Him in heaven.
• Judgment of the Day of the Lord arrives to the believer (for the Elect, it is called the Thousand Years Reign).
• Conversion.
• The time of testing.
• The bodily resurrection at the end of the age.

Have you ever studied the verses in Acts 9 which teach Paul's conversion experience?

Joe