Question to former Christian drinkers: How long is the misery?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Moonstone Eterni

Active Member
Mar 15, 2022
143
95
28
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I decided to quit drinking alcohol today. I had been going through extreme hardships in life, so I consumed all sorts of drinks that made me inebriated: Wine, beer, whiskey, and occasionally a small bottle of Japanese saké for something different. The buzz from alcohol made me happy, mellow, and somewhat childlike. It didn’t make my problems go away, but it sure took my mind off the misery.

For the past month and a half I had been consuming four to six drinks a day, and I didn’t take any days off. When I mention drink here, I mean like a glass of wine, a 12 oz can of beer, and a single shot of whiskey (which equals 50 ml); and as for the saké, which I had only here and there to try something different, it was 180 ml per bottle. To give you a comparison, a typical glass of wine is 8 oz, which is equals nearly 240 ml. My saké of choice had 14.5% ABV, and my wine of choice had 10% ABV. The glass of wine has more liquid and the saké less, but the buzz felt about the same because of the ABV difference.

Mind you, I wasn’t one of those absolutely insane alcoholics who drink themselves to the point of blacking out. These people come home from work and then immediately begin drinking hard vodka. They drink and drink, then drink some more. Then they continue drinking until they pass out. Altogether, they end up drinking a liter of hard vodka (which can be 50% ABV). How much is a liter? 1 liter equals 1,000 ml, and a standard bottle of wine has 750 ml. The alcoholic content of white zinfandel wine is about 12.5% ABV. To drink the equivalent amount white zinfandel and 1 liter of vodka, you would have to consume over 4 standard-size bottles of wine.

Sounds absolutely crazy. While doing research on the internet the other day, I found out that the average alcohol male lives only to age 57. When you consider heavy smokers live a decade or longer than that, well, that is just truly astonishing.

So yeah, I was by no means an extreme drinker, as described above. But still, four to six drinks a day every day does indeed sound like a lot to any lay drinker who drinks lightly, on occasion, and will stop at one drink. I suppose you could say I was a moderately high drinker, but really, I don’t know how to class myself here.

Today is day one of not drinking. My doctor gave me some anti-anxiety medicine to help me not feel so anxious, and yes, it is working very well: The anxiety is gone. But there are other side effects from the withdrawal…

I feel like something is missing. Let’s say someone joined the US Army and served a 6-year tour, then he returns home to civilian life. All is well, but something feels “missing.” He was so accustomed to life in the forces that his new civilian life feels dramatically different. “Missing,” as in he is missing his routine, his friends, his very way of life in the military. So it is with me: I have this odd feeling like something is missing, and I’m thinking it’s the alcohol. Is there a name for this? I think they call it cognitive difference, but maybe it’s called something else.

My libido is very low. When you have a chemical like alcohol in your body for a month every day and then take it away, I presume that would have ensuing chemical effects on the body, one of them being sexual feelings and drive. Mind you, I’m not impotent: I can get it up with lots of manual stimulation. But still, the desire just isn’t there. It’s probably not permanent, hopefully. The supplement shop is open for another hour and a half, so maybe after I finish writing this post I will go there and buy some ginkgo biloba, which has helped raise my male desire in the past by quite a bit. I guess it needs to heal.

I sort of feel unhappy, like I’m not quite myself. Again, this is probably related to not having alcohol. And again, I guess it needs to heal.

The good news is that I don’t want to drink. After drinking all that alcohol for so long over so many weeks, I’m glad to be off it. However, I really want to return to feeling better, so I decided to make this thread and ask Christians who are former drinkers how long it took to “feel like yourself” again? In my case specifically, with the amount I drank over the course of 4 to 6 weeks, how long will it take to feel like myself again?

I did some browsing on Reddit with this question. Many of the threads were created by extreme drinkers (as described above in paragraph 3). They also wanted to know when their misery would end with alcohol withdrawal. Naturally their withdrawal time table and recovery would be much different from mine. I tried looking for a thread about a drinker who drank about the same as I did who had the same question, but couldn’t find anything useful.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dominic

Mantis

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2020
1,569
1,852
113
The wilderness
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I use to drink like you but usually I drank either whiskey or beer or both. I hit rock bottom and decided to quit. I get nauseous thinking about booze and I use to love it. I don’t remember the highs, just lots of hangovers, puking etc. I think God will help you with it if you pray. I just said a prayer for you.
 

dominic

Active Member
Jan 11, 2022
117
234
43
42
Okinawa, Japan
www.pureheart.page
Faith
Christian
Country
Japan
I consider myself a Christian and recovering sex addict, but I used to drink on weekends and I was addicted more mentally than chemically. I'm age 40, married, have three children. I would say that the first and foremost is not really about your recovery from alcohol addiction or physical feelings, although it's important and you did receive anti-anxiety meds. I also take 40mg Lexapro daily for my GED(gen anx disorder). I want to pray for you.

Dear Lord, please help this brother wants to quit drinking and please let him find all the help healing in You. In Jesus' name. Amen.

I used to attend AA, SAA, SA, and that was only helpful to a point, but their HP (higher power) is, according to Step 3, god as you understand him, which is different than what Jesus said in John 14:6. I say this to make a point. The point it. It's only one Step, Step 1, Matthew 11:28-30 Jesus said "Come to me all you who are heavy laden and burdened and I will give you rest".

It looks like you see your need to recovery from alcohol. It's take for your liver, and also bad for your Christian walk, because the scriptures tell us to not be drunk and not be in immorality (applies to you and me but substance is different).

I'm only able to say that God is able to help you. God uses people around you to talk to you, lead you back to God, and help you recover. For me, it was a drug addiction pastor, who the Lord used, to rebuke, counsel, and help me, it only took one day one meeting and didn't have to be this way, but God used it. Please dont' think I assume God works the same exact way. I mean, what worked for me, might not or might work for you. I used to taking God's grace as a license to sin, so therefore, I automatically think "there might be or might not be" others like me. Some need wrath of God to wake them up, others just a little, others, need to know they are unconditionally loved, but here is how it went for me.

The drug addiction counselor asked me "Do you want to jerk yourself off into hell?" and "Do you want your children to know you as the dad who could not stop and would not stop his addiction with porn, masturbation, etc, and left the family?" At this point, God reminded me of my children, and pictured them growing up, and dying and going to hell, weeping and gnashing of teeth. I was getting the point and the message was real now. I didn't take it as "Some Christains think they are better than me" no, but "I need to get it right, because my life, my soul and my family is at state".

At that point in my life, my wife left me, with our children. I was at my all time low. The drug addiction pastor, led me to the church, gave me a bible, opened to 2 corinthians, I read in the first few chapters who God was able to raise the dead and I knew I was dead and I needed to be raised. I got on the floor, face on the floor, and just cried out to God for real. I was angry at God, angry at my wife, I asked God for forgiveness. I had hope again that God was for me and God was for the sinner, I remembered how Jesus Christ had died on the cross for all of my sins, and my wifes sins and the whole world sins, and I just wanted to be with Jesus Christ, and feel forgiven and loved again. I cried for God to save me, not dounting He heard me, not counting all my past, just at that time, just thinking of God. I saw the Lord Jesus bleeding and suffering for me on the cross. I'm not trying to be dramatic. In my closed eyed, prayer, honest searching for God, I saw that. Jesus died and crying out and pain dying for my sins. It was real to me. I trust in Jesus now. I know Jesus is alive and real.

This is my focus for all repent, faith, recovery from sins. Because I can't do it right, because "without God, it's impossible" Jesus said that.

I hope you will think seriously about this issue and relate it to sin, and repenting from it. Not simply "not drinking" because the secular recovery can't lead you to the real living waters, but only external and you need more. It sounds like it.

Don't try to rationalize anything but submit to God, God's Word, read the Bible for yourself and what you read, ask God to get help and willingness to do it. Romans 12:1-2 says that we need to be renewed in our minds. I need this desperately. Not initially only at salvation, where the born-again experience and reality happens but all the day. Like Jesus washed the disciples feet, after they were already cleaned, so we do still need daily washing. This washing is reading the Word, understanding, God speaking to us, we receive it, we feel any wrongs and ask God for help and a new life and new changes happen to us. Then when we are able to do good things, unreal, not normal, godly things, we know this was God who was working in us, because without God's help, we could not have done it. I have some experience in that.

I many times thought "I'm going to sin" and watch porn and masturbate. The truth it, lusting after a women in my heart is already adultery and the porn and masturbation is only the external thing, so my point is, we have to go deeper than rather quit some external destructive behavior but try to find why we are doing what we are doing.

The principles I find are this.

1. we are trying to escape some pain
2. or we are tempted into doing it because Satan lies and tempts us to look, even the eyes of our mind, thinking, and then we are obsessed and do it. (mental intoxication / obsession /enslavery)

In counseling, we have to learn to distract. It's ok to have some healthy hobbies but if they take over, and they become your new addiction, then that is not changing one idol for another, and not going to do it. Our center must be God's sitting on our hearts throne and we must submit to God, all rage, all hurts, all bitterness, all self-righteousness that we have identified in our own self, we have to make a decision to let it go, by taking it to Jesus in prayer, telling it to Him, humbly asking for help to change, and then when we read God's desire in the Word, we follow it.

Lust is a poison, dopamine in the brain, chemical and spiritual bonds.
Jesus is able to take us away from these bonds and set us free. It's free, it's real, it's for you brother.
 

Moonstone Eterni

Active Member
Mar 15, 2022
143
95
28
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I consider myself a Christian and recovering sex addict, but I used to drink on weekends and I was addicted more mentally than chemically. I'm age 40, married, have three children. I would say that the first and foremost is not really about your recovery from alcohol addiction or physical feelings, although it's important and you did receive anti-anxiety meds. I also take 40mg Lexapro daily for my GED(gen anx disorder). I want to pray for you.

Dear Lord, please help this brother wants to quit drinking and please let him find all the help healing in You. In Jesus' name. Amen.

I used to attend AA, SAA, SA, and that was only helpful to a point, but their HP (higher power) is, according to Step 3, god as you understand him, which is different than what Jesus said in John 14:6. I say this to make a point. The point it. It's only one Step, Step 1, Matthew 11:28-30 Jesus said "Come to me all you who are heavy laden and burdened and I will give you rest".

It looks like you see your need to recovery from alcohol. It's take for your liver, and also bad for your Christian walk, because the scriptures tell us to not be drunk and not be in immorality (applies to you and me but substance is different).

I'm only able to say that God is able to help you. God uses people around you to talk to you, lead you back to God, and help you recover. For me, it was a drug addiction pastor, who the Lord used, to rebuke, counsel, and help me, it only took one day one meeting and didn't have to be this way, but God used it. Please dont' think I assume God works the same exact way. I mean, what worked for me, might not or might work for you. I used to taking God's grace as a license to sin, so therefore, I automatically think "there might be or might not be" others like me. Some need wrath of God to wake them up, others just a little, others, need to know they are unconditionally loved, but here is how it went for me.

The drug addiction counselor asked me "Do you want to jerk yourself off into hell?" and "Do you want your children to know you as the dad who could not stop and would not stop his addiction with porn, masturbation, etc, and left the family?" At this point, God reminded me of my children, and pictured them growing up, and dying and going to hell, weeping and gnashing of teeth. I was getting the point and the message was real now. I didn't take it as "Some Christains think they are better than me" no, but "I need to get it right, because my life, my soul and my family is at state".

At that point in my life, my wife left me, with our children. I was at my all time low. The drug addiction pastor, led me to the church, gave me a bible, opened to 2 corinthians, I read in the first few chapters who God was able to raise the dead and I knew I was dead and I needed to be raised. I got on the floor, face on the floor, and just cried out to God for real. I was angry at God, angry at my wife, I asked God for forgiveness. I had hope again that God was for me and God was for the sinner, I remembered how Jesus Christ had died on the cross for all of my sins, and my wifes sins and the whole world sins, and I just wanted to be with Jesus Christ, and feel forgiven and loved again. I cried for God to save me, not dounting He heard me, not counting all my past, just at that time, just thinking of God. I saw the Lord Jesus bleeding and suffering for me on the cross. I'm not trying to be dramatic. In my closed eyed, prayer, honest searching for God, I saw that. Jesus died and crying out and pain dying for my sins. It was real to me. I trust in Jesus now. I know Jesus is alive and real.

This is my focus for all repent, faith, recovery from sins. Because I can't do it right, because "without God, it's impossible" Jesus said that.

I hope you will think seriously about this issue and relate it to sin, and repenting from it. Not simply "not drinking" because the secular recovery can't lead you to the real living waters, but only external and you need more. It sounds like it.

Don't try to rationalize anything but submit to God, God's Word, read the Bible for yourself and what you read, ask God to get help and willingness to do it. Romans 12:1-2 says that we need to be renewed in our minds. I need this desperately. Not initially only at salvation, where the born-again experience and reality happens but all the day. Like Jesus washed the disciples feet, after they were already cleaned, so we do still need daily washing. This washing is reading the Word, understanding, God speaking to us, we receive it, we feel any wrongs and ask God for help and a new life and new changes happen to us. Then when we are able to do good things, unreal, not normal, godly things, we know this was God who was working in us, because without God's help, we could not have done it. I have some experience in that.

I many times thought "I'm going to sin" and watch porn and masturbate. The truth it, lusting after a women in my heart is already adultery and the porn and masturbation is only the external thing, so my point is, we have to go deeper than rather quit some external destructive behavior but try to find why we are doing what we are doing.

The principles I find are this.

1. we are trying to escape some pain
2. or we are tempted into doing it because Satan lies and tempts us to look, even the eyes of our mind, thinking, and then we are obsessed and do it. (mental intoxication / obsession /enslavery)

In counseling, we have to learn to distract. It's ok to have some healthy hobbies but if they take over, and they become your new addiction, then that is not changing one idol for another, and not going to do it. Our center must be God's sitting on our hearts throne and we must submit to God, all rage, all hurts, all bitterness, all self-righteousness that we have identified in our own self, we have to make a decision to let it go, by taking it to Jesus in prayer, telling it to Him, humbly asking for help to change, and then when we read God's desire in the Word, we follow it.

Lust is a poison, dopamine in the brain, chemical and spiritual bonds.
Jesus is able to take us away from these bonds and set us free. It's free, it's real, it's for you brother.

Thanks for the support from both of you. I’m on day three now without a drink; and while I have plenty of detox medicine to get rid of the anxiety related to alcohol withdrawal, the crippling, gut-wrenching depression has kicked in full force—and it is truly miserable.

To elaborate on how awful the depression has been affecting me…

I don’t want to do anything, being unmotivated and painfully apathetic. Do you know how bad I felt doing something menial like getting out of bed this morning? It was a tough uphill battle, a struggle. Body odor is coming from my armpits, having been too tired to shower this morning and apply deodorant. I smell rancid, and my stench is aggravated by the frequent sweats, which seem to be part of the alcohol withdrawals.

My appetite is nonexistent. I consumed a green superfood that I mixed in milk, then I made a similar drink with healthy beets and mixed it in milk, consuming it. Other than that I haven’t eaten any food (and it’s already over two and a half hours past noon). However, I’m making sure to stay hydrated by drinking plenty of orange juice.

My libido is returning slowly. Problems still exist, but they are abating slowly but surely as the hours pass. I bought some gingko biloba supplements, which help with male desire (and some say improve short-term memory), as well as a can of zinc gummies. I’ve been taking the recommended intake throughout the day, and yes, improves are happening. Thank God for that.

“Whiskey dick” is a well-known word used on the internet to describe alcohol-induced erectile dysfunction. They say heavy drinkers experience temporary impotence after a long, hard drinking session the following day. I did some further research on scary subject, and apparently it’s temporary: My male abilities and desires will come back right away as soon as the alcohol is completely out of my system.

One thing I’ve learned from this experience is that I never want alcohol ever again. Base on all the grief it has caused me, why on earth would I want to go back to suffering? Sure, alcohol can make me happy and buzzed, but it’s always very short-lived. The side-effects linger much longer; and in my particular case, the side-effects lingered even more long.

I’m going to make a note and post it on my bedroom door. It will have the date I quit drinking alcohol. If I can make it a month, two months, three months, or even a year with a single drop a alcohol, it will give me a huge sense of pride and accomplishment.
 

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
6,392
9,187
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
“Whiskey dick” is a well-known word used on the internet to describe alcohol-induced erectile dysfunction. They say heavy drinkers experience temporary impotence after a long, hard drinking session the following day. I did some further research on scary subject, and apparently it’s temporary: My male abilities and desires will come back right away as soon as the alcohol is completely out of my system.
Your anti-anxiety medications may cause sexual dysfunction also, including erectile dysfunction and anorgasmia. Check WebMd for possible side-effects.

My PCP is always trying to peddle some pills or other. I turned down his offer to prescribe some SSRIs for anxiety because I was willing to endure the occasional anxiety attack if that was the price of enjoying my relationship with the dear woman I'm married to. I'm glad I did. Doc asked me about it during my physical last month. And I realized I hadn't had an anxiety attack or even thought about it in a several years. I think that's a good sign.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moonstone Eterni

Moonstone Eterni

Active Member
Mar 15, 2022
143
95
28
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your anti-anxiety medications may cause sexual dysfunction also, including erectile dysfunction and anorgasmia. Check WebMd for possible side-effects.

My PCP is always trying to peddle some pills or other. I turned down his offer to prescribe some SSRIs for anxiety because I was willing to endure the occasional anxiety attack if that was the price of enjoying my relationship with the dear woman I'm married to. I'm glad I did. Doc asked me about it during my physical last month. And I realized I hadn't had an anxiety attack or even thought about it in a several years. I think that's a good sign.
Your anti-anxiety medications may cause sexual dysfunction also, including erectile dysfunction and anorgasmia. Check WebMd for possible side-effects.

My PCP is always trying to peddle some pills or other. I turned down his offer to prescribe some SSRIs for anxiety because I was willing to endure the occasional anxiety attack if that was the price of enjoying my relationship with the dear woman I'm married to. I'm glad I did. Doc asked me about it during my physical last month. And I realized I hadn't had an anxiety attack or even thought about it in a several years. I think that's a good sign.

I believe both the anxiety medicine and alcohol withdrawal are harming my sexual desire. I’m not impotent, since I can still get it up (...tmi...). Both these things together are probably making my current sex problem worse.

The good news is that I won’t need Ativan tomorrow. I’m through the worst part of alcohol withdrawal, and I don’t need many pills today. And it generally takes 12 days for alcohol to completely leave the system, though the worst of the withdrawals end sooner. So my mojo should be back in about a week.

I’m also addicted to nicotine, and the benzos have enabled me to quit in the past. Not only did they reduce the anxiety, but the head pain from nicotine withdrawal didn’t seem to be there, at least significantly. I still had cravings, but they were tolerable as long as the withdrawal head pain was minimized.

I have two Ativan refills left, each bottle containing thirty pills. I’ll hold on to my current supply, and when I get my subsequent refill next month there will be more than enough pills to make it through 11 days of nicotine withdrawal without so much pain. Whenever I quit nicotine in the past for long periods (which I’ve successfully done about 3 times), the magic day was day 12: The first day through the eleventh day were complete misery (all equally painful), but when I woke up on the twelfth day I felt completely normal, as if I had never used nicotine before.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: Heart2Soul

DuckieLady

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2021
3,288
5,932
113
Midwest-ish
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I decided to quit drinking alcohol today. I had been going through extreme hardships in life, so I consumed all sorts of drinks that made me inebriated: Wine, beer, whiskey, and occasionally a small bottle of Japanese saké for something different. The buzz from alcohol made me happy, mellow, and somewhat childlike. It didn’t make my problems go away, but it sure took my mind off the misery.

For the past month and a half I had been consuming four to six drinks a day, and I didn’t take any days off. When I mention drink here, I mean like a glass of wine, a 12 oz can of beer, and a single shot of whiskey (which equals 50 ml); and as for the saké, which I had only here and there to try something different, it was 180 ml per bottle. To give you a comparison, a typical glass of wine is 8 oz, which is equals nearly 240 ml. My saké of choice had 14.5% ABV, and my wine of choice had 10% ABV. The glass of wine has more liquid and the saké less, but the buzz felt about the same because of the ABV difference.

Mind you, I wasn’t one of those absolutely insane alcoholics who drink themselves to the point of blacking out. These people come home from work and then immediately begin drinking hard vodka. They drink and drink, then drink some more. Then they continue drinking until they pass out. Altogether, they end up drinking a liter of hard vodka (which can be 50% ABV). How much is a liter? 1 liter equals 1,000 ml, and a standard bottle of wine has 750 ml. The alcoholic content of white zinfandel wine is about 12.5% ABV. To drink the equivalent amount white zinfandel and 1 liter of vodka, you would have to consume over 4 standard-size bottles of wine.

Sounds absolutely crazy. While doing research on the internet the other day, I found out that the average alcohol male lives only to age 57. When you consider heavy smokers live a decade or longer than that, well, that is just truly astonishing.

So yeah, I was by no means an extreme drinker, as described above. But still, four to six drinks a day every day does indeed sound like a lot to any lay drinker who drinks lightly, on occasion, and will stop at one drink. I suppose you could say I was a moderately high drinker, but really, I don’t know how to class myself here.

Today is day one of not drinking. My doctor gave me some anti-anxiety medicine to help me not feel so anxious, and yes, it is working very well: The anxiety is gone. But there are other side effects from the withdrawal…

I feel like something is missing. Let’s say someone joined the US Army and served a 6-year tour, then he returns home to civilian life. All is well, but something feels “missing.” He was so accustomed to life in the forces that his new civilian life feels dramatically different. “Missing,” as in he is missing his routine, his friends, his very way of life in the military. So it is with me: I have this odd feeling like something is missing, and I’m thinking it’s the alcohol. Is there a name for this? I think they call it cognitive difference, but maybe it’s called something else.

My libido is very low. When you have a chemical like alcohol in your body for a month every day and then take it away, I presume that would have ensuing chemical effects on the body, one of them being sexual feelings and drive. Mind you, I’m not impotent: I can get it up with lots of manual stimulation. But still, the desire just isn’t there. It’s probably not permanent, hopefully. The supplement shop is open for another hour and a half, so maybe after I finish writing this post I will go there and buy some ginkgo biloba, which has helped raise my male desire in the past by quite a bit. I guess it needs to heal.

I sort of feel unhappy, like I’m not quite myself. Again, this is probably related to not having alcohol. And again, I guess it needs to heal.

The good news is that I don’t want to drink. After drinking all that alcohol for so long over so many weeks, I’m glad to be off it. However, I really want to return to feeling better, so I decided to make this thread and ask Christians who are former drinkers how long it took to “feel like yourself” again? In my case specifically, with the amount I drank over the course of 4 to 6 weeks, how long will it take to feel like myself again?

I did some browsing on Reddit with this question. Many of the threads were created by extreme drinkers (as described above in paragraph 3). They also wanted to know when their misery would end with alcohol withdrawal. Naturally their withdrawal time table and recovery would be much different from mine. I tried looking for a thread about a drinker who drank about the same as I did who had the same question, but couldn’t find anything useful.

I quit I think Jan 1, 2017(?) for a few reasons. I thought it would help me with a relationship situation, alcoholism is a severe issue in my family and I saw what it does to people, I was turning to God so I felt like it was the right plan- but since things didn't go as planned, it became a full on God thing.

I honestly didn't feel a struggle because I had just made up my mind. There were a few stages where I felt like I really could use a drink out of depression but prayed through it.

I haven't really felt the struggle until last week. I went to the bar to see if I could cash my check and have been meeting people. Tiny mystery town in the middle of nowhere, and the only social thing to do would be to go get a drink at the bar. So one part of me thought about coming back around and ordering a mudslide.

So I left, but I'll go back to buy my eggs because the owner sells them cheap there.

But the best advice I can give for any : (more important)

Do all the close to God things you already know to do. That's first.
Go find new healthy hobbies and learn new things. (exercise, read different books, educate yourself in everything interesting)
Take time to explore yourself and learn who you are.
Get away from people that wear you down or "trigger" that behavior

Proverbs 15:22: Without counsel plans fail, but with many advisers they succeed.

Educate yourself, educate yourself, educate yourself.

Learn about your own behavior and practice emotional regulation, which sounds like you would benefit from quite a bit. Take whatever you are going to focus on seriously, listen to people who have done it for years and know what they're talking about.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lambano