Questions About Christian Salvation

[Angelina]

perhaps you can explain why we die then?

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 [sup]20[/sup] But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [sup]21[/sup] For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. [sup]22[/sup] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [sup]23[/sup] But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [sup]24[/sup] Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. [sup]25[/sup] For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [sup]26[/sup] The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. [sup]27[/sup] For “He has put all things under His feet.”[sup]][/sup] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is[sup]28[/sup] Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Romans 8:5-10
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

2 Corinthians 5:18
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Hebrews 9:24-27
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Revelation 2:11
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Blessings!!!

 

[brionne]

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 [sup]20[/sup] But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [sup]21[/sup] For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. [sup]22[/sup] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [sup]23[/sup] But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [sup]24[/sup] Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. [sup]25[/sup] For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [sup]26[/sup] The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. [sup]27[/sup] For “He has put all things under His feet.”[sup]][/sup] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is[sup]28[/sup] Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Romans 8:5-10
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

2 Corinthians 5:18
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Hebrews 9:24-27
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Revelation 2:11
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Blessings!!!

thank you for the verses.

Can you explain why people died BEFORE Christ arrived?

 

[Angelina]

Can you explain why people died BEFORE Christ arrived?

Romans 5:12-21

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[brionne]

Romans 5:12-21

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,

I take it you also agree with Pauls words that death is the result of sin


Do you also believe that we pay our debt for sin by our death?

 

[Angelina]

I take it you also agree with Pauls words that death is the result of sin.

Death is the penalty of sin, not the result. The result of sin is disobedience to Gods commands which brought about death...

Romans 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

G3800 opsōnion - wages
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the same as G3795; rations for a soldier, that is, (by extension) his stipend or pay: - wages.

Do you also believe that we pay our debt for sin by our death?

no...the debt has been paid already... for all who believe in Christ and receive his free gift of salvation ..

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

You have this backwards dear sister...:huh:

Shalom!

 

[brionne]

Death is the penalty of sin, not the result. The result of sin is disobedience to Gods commands which brought about death...

Romans 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

G3800 opsōnion - wages
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the same as G3795; rations for a soldier, that is, (by extension) his stipend or pay: - wages.

yes i agree.

no...the debt has been paid already... for all who believe in Christ and receive his free gift of salvation ..

So i go back to my earlier question.... how was the debt being paid BEFORE Christ arrived on the scene? There are a lot of people who lived before the arrival of Christ that never knew Christ, nor could they believe in him.... how were they paying the debt?

 

[Angelina]

They didn't pay the debt honey...they awaited the coming messiah....

1 Samuel 28:3-15
15 And SamuelH8050 saidH559 toH413 Saul,H7586 WhyH4100 hast thou disquietedH7264 me, to bring me up?H5927 (H853) And SaulH7586

H5927 ‛âlâh - to bring me up?
A primitive root; to ascend, intransitively (be high) or active (mount); used in a great variety of senses, primary and secondary, literally and figuratively: - arise (up). (cause to) ascend up, at once, break [the day] (up), bring (up), (cause to) burn, carry up, cast up, + shew, climb (up), (cause to, make to) come (up), cut off, dawn, depart, exalt, excel, fall, fetch up, get up, (make to) go (away, up), grow (over), increase, lay, leap, levy, lift (self) up, light, [make] up, X mention, mount up, offer, make to pay, + perfect, prefer, put (on), raise, recover, restore, (make to) rise (up), scale, set (up), shoot forth (up), (begin to) spring (up), stir up, take away (up), work.

Was Samuel in heaven at this point?
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1 Thessalonians 4
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Hebrews 2:14
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
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Matthew 27:50-53
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

What about now?

Lets look at all the folks that died during the days of Noah

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

What do you think Jesus was preaching about? do you think it may have been about the Good News of salvation?

Matthew 12
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 16:21
[ Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection ] From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
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Now who holds the power of death!

Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Hallelujah! Thank you Jesus!

There are a lot of people who lived before the arrival of Christ that never knew Christ, nor could they believe in him.... how were they paying the debt?

They did not pay a debt...they died because all men die [Hebrews 9:27]...it is the penalty of the original sin...we are mortal [in this tent] but God is eternal and those who believe in him will have eternal life also through the precious blood of his Son who became a sin offering on behalf of all those who believe in him.

 

[brionne]

They didn't pay the debt honey...they awaited the coming messiah....

They did not pay a debt...they died because all men die [Hebrews 9:27]...it is the penalty of the original sin...we are mortal [in this tent] but God is eternal and those who believe in him will have eternal life also through the precious blood of his Son who became a sin offering on behalf of all those who believe in him.

ok, can I ask you to please explain what this verse means.

Romans 6:7

thanks in advance.

 

[Angelina]

Your

how was the debt being paid BEFORE Christ arrived on the scene?

My qoute

They didn't pay the debt honey...they awaited the coming messiah....

regarding pre-cross believers]

your quote

There are a lot of people who lived before the arrival of Christ that never knew Christ, nor could they believe in him.... how were they paying the debt?

My quote

They did not pay a debt...they died because all men die [Hebrews 9:27]...it is the penalty of the original sin...we are mortal [in this tent] but God is eternal and those who believe in him will have eternal life also through the precious blood of his Son who became a sin offering on behalf of all those who believe in him.

ok, can I ask you to please explain what this verse means.

Romans 6
[sup]5[/sup] For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, [sup]6[/sup] knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [sup]7[/sup] For he who has died has been freed from sin. [sup]8[/sup] Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [sup]9[/sup] knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. [sup]10[/sup] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

It means exactly what it says... please make your point...


Blessings!!!

 

[brionne]

please make your point...


Blessings!!!

what i'm trying to determine is how you came to the conclusion that people who lived before the messiah, had no debt to pay, as you stated above.

Paul tells us that the wages sin pays is death. So if we commit sin, we will incur death as a penalty....thats what happened to Adam. This should imply that if Adam had remained sinless, he would never have died.

And if he remained sinless, we would have been born perfect and never have earned the wages of sin...namely death.But as we are all sinners, we also all die and so did people who had not known the Christ. You said they had no debt to pay, yet if they didnt have a debt, then they should rightly still be alive.

yes, i'm confused.

 

[Angelina]

This should imply that if Adam had remained sinless, he would never have died.

If Adam had never sinned - death would not have been in the world [Romans 5:12]

And if he remained sinless, we would have been born perfect and never have earned the wages of sin...namely death.But as we are all sinners, we also all die and so did people who had not known the Christ. You said they had no debt to pay, yet if they didnt have a debt, then they should rightly still be alive.
yes, i'm confused.

Only if you believe that death was a debt they needed to pay but their dying did not wash away sin from them. They died in their sins and will stand in Judgment for their sins.
What I and others have been trying to tell you...is that their dying did not remove their sin. Jesus our redeemer, became a ransom on our behalf - a payment for the debt we owed. The debt you speak of, is not death...death is the penalty of sin.

When someone goes to prison for committing a crime, the penalty of the crime may be long term incarceration.
This does not make them any more guilty of the crime. A family member may come and pay money to have that person freed..[depending on the severity of the crime]. The money that the family pay out...would be considered the debt owing.
The legal establishment may then allow that person to go free because the debt has been paid.

For believers, Jesus paid the ransom on the cross for our sins - the penalty of these sins...was death. We no-longer need to face the penalty of our sins, which is death but rather look forward to eternal life with our Lord and Savior because his death brought us freedom from having to pay the penalty and gave us eternal life.

Romans 3
[sup]23[/sup] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [sup]24[/sup] being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [sup]25[/sup] whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, [sup]26[/sup] to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Blessings!!!

 

[brionne]

If Adam had never sinned - death would not have been in the world [Romans 5:12]



Only if you believe that death was a debt they needed to pay but their dying did not wash away sin from them. They died in their sins and will stand in Judgment for their sins.
What I and others have been trying to tell you...is that their dying did not remove their sin. Jesus our redeemer, became a ransom on our behalf - a payment for the debt we owed. The debt you speak of, is not death...death is the penalty of sin.

yes and this is why im confused because Paul specifically says that at death, the person is acquitted of their sims. To be acquitted means they are forgiven and those sins are not being held against them.

If we were to take the view that people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7 It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people, as stated at Revelation 20:12, 13, simply for them to be judged as worthy of death, and die again based on the sins they have already been acquitted for.

When someone goes to prison for committing a crime, the penalty of the crime may be long term incarceration.
This does not make them any more guilty of the crime. A family member may come and pay money to have that person freed..[depending on the severity of the crime]. The money that the family pay out...would be considered the debt owing.
The legal establishment may then allow that person to go free because the debt has been paid.

For believers, Jesus paid the ransom on the cross for our sins - the penalty of these sins...was death. We no-longer need to face the penalty of our sins, which is death but rather look forward to eternal life with our Lord and Savior because his death brought us freedom from having to pay the penalty and gave us eternal life.

agreed. Im sure thats what I have been stating from the beginning because that is what I believe.

So for those who lived after christ, his sacrifice paid our debt to God, but for people before Christ, their own death paid the debt to God. Would you agree with that?

 

[tomwebster]

yes and this is why im confused because Paul specifically says that at death, the person is acquitted of their sims. To be acquitted means they are forgiven and those sins are not being held against them.

If we were to take the view that people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7 It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people, as stated at Revelation 20:12, 13, simply for them to be judged as worthy of death, and die again based on the sins they have already been acquitted for.



agreed. Im sure thats what I have been stating from the beginning because that is what I believe.

So for those who lived after christ, his sacrifice paid our debt to God, but for people before Christ, their own death paid the debt to God. Would you agree with that?
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Absolutely not, the wages of sin is death. Man cannot redeem himself only the blood of a spotless lamb could pay the debt.

You will want to read the surrounding verses to get the full context:
Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

Lev 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
Lev 4:28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
Lev 4:30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.
Lev 4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.
Lev 4:33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
Lev 4:34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:
Lev 4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

 

[Angelina]

yes and this is why im confused because Paul specifically says that at death, the person is acquitted of their sims. To be acquitted means they are forgiven and those sins are not being held against them.
If we were to take the view that people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7

Please read the verse in context...

Romans 6
How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? [sup]3[/sup] Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? [sup]4[/sup] Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[sup]5[/sup] For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, [sup]6[/sup] knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [sup]7[/sup] For he who has died has been freed from sin. [sup]8[/sup] Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [sup]9[/sup] knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. [sup]10[/sup] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [sup]11[/sup] Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
[sup]12[/sup] Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. [sup]13[/sup] And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [sup]14[/sup] For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

This is what the writer is referring to...

Romans 8
Free from Indwelling Sin
[sup]1[/sup] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.[sup]2[/sup] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [sup]3[/sup] For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [sup]4[/sup] that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [sup]5[/sup] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[sup] [/sup] [sup]6[/sup] For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [sup]7[/sup] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. [sup]8[/sup] So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[sup]9[/sup] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. [sup]10[/sup] And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [sup]11[/sup] But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Sonship Through the Spirit
[sup]12[/sup] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [sup]13[/sup] For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [sup]14[/sup] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [sup]15[/sup] For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” [sup]16[/sup] The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, [sup]17[/sup] and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people, as stated at Revelation 20:12, 13, simply for them to be judged as worthy of death, and die again based on the sins they have already been acquitted for.

When did they get acquitted?...:huh: They have not stood trial yet...this will be done at the end of the age.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. [sup]12[/sup] And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. [sup]13[/sup] The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. [sup]14[/sup] Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[sup]15[/sup] And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
[sup]6[/sup] And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. [sup]7[/sup] He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. [sup]8[/sup] But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

So for those who lived after christ, his sacrifice paid our debt to God, but for people before Christ, their own death paid the debt to God. Would you agree with that?

no...they will be judged according to Revelation 20:12-13 Books were opened and one was the "Book of Life."

PS: If your theory were true...who are all these dead people coming up for judgment?

Shalom!

 

[Duckybill]

perhaps you can explain why we die then?

We die because we are sinners. And therefore only the sinless Jesus could pay our debt of sin.

Your

My qoute regarding pre-cross believers]

[/b]your quote

My quote



Romans 6

[sup]5[/sup] For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, [sup]6[/sup] knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [sup]7[/sup] For he who has died has been freed from sin. [sup]8[/sup] Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [sup]9[/sup] knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. [sup]10[/sup] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

It means exactly what it says... please make your point...


Blessings!!!

Angelina, you will find that ALL of those who deny Jesus/God and Hell will pervert Scripture. JW's will try every trick in Satan's book to deceive. They are inspired by the master deceiver. Their goal is to kill, steal and destroy those who are truly saved. They have already been destroyed.

John 10:10 (ESV)
[sup]10 [/sup]The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy.