Rahab, prostitute or Innkeeper?

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101G

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I did research a few years ago on this woman Rahab, from the book of Joshua chapter 2, one of the great...great..... grandmother of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus. This Gentile woman??, according to the flesh in our Lord's genealogy, converted to the truth, and faith, of the only living God. I question the title, or stigma that refer to her as a harlot. the research lead me away from this title, that I believe she received in error. she have carried this title, through out the bible, and way too long. Just like Mary Magdalene, she was always referred to as a prostitute, until the church in this century corrected the mistake. I ask in the name of the Lord Jesus, have we also made an error in judgment on this woman also?, I only ask.

The Question
what was the occupation of Rahab, Prostitute/Harlot or Innkeeper?. I have heard many explanation concerning this woman. so lets start with the word translation of the title in question, prostitute. “ZONAH” which laterally means prostitute, so why use the word. “ZONAH”,and not the word used in the translation, which is "Zanah"?. this word Zonah is a cognate of the verb Zanah. cognate means, akin; related. or a noun functioning as the object of a verb to which it is etymologically related, as in think a thought or sing a song. the Chaldee Targum understood the term, and has therefore translated it ittetha pundekitha, a woman, a TAVERN-KEEPER. Now my question is, why the Targum rendered it this way, and not the bible?. I have my reason, which I'll explaine later.
the word in modern Hebrew, “ZOON”, ZON, or “ZUN” which laterally not literally, but laterally, means to furnish food, is rendered innkeeper or hostess.
An innkeeper?. I was looking at the word for harlot/prostitute, and innkeeper in contrast. looking at verse 6 of chapter 2. it states, “But she had brought them up to the roof of the house, and hid them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order upon the roof”. This flax, I look up and this really open up my research. flax was used in making a lot of things. but here in our topic it was used for making, cloths, or clothing, and most important here, linen. that got my attention. so, this woman was in the clothing, or linen business. if linen, Why?. To be in the innkeeper business you need fresh clean linen, daily. This woman was very industrial, Look at proverb 31:13 “She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands”. This scripture is about a virtuous woman? hummmmm.
But what's interesting is this, the history of flax and its use. the making of cloths, or clothing, and linen from flax goes back to a famous city in Egypt, name “ZOAN”. Do this word looks like another word?, yes, “ZONAH” which means, that's right harlot.
now this history below is not set in stone yet, so don't hold me to it, ok..
But what's again interesting, is the original name of this city, “Avaris”. so the question?, What's so important about Avaris. It was the capital city where a famous Hebrew Pharaoh, yes a Hebrew Pharaoh ruler. Know his name?, “Yosef “ yes, Joseph the son of Jacob?. This is the place where the people called Hykos lived and Yosef ruled them. I believe these people called Hykos is the children of Israel (Jacob). please don't hold me to this yet, because archeologist is still in the process of confirming this. if you read the Bible the name Rahab is used as an emblem of Egypt. Psalms 87:4 and Psalms 89:10. and so on. knowing this, a question comes to mind, is this woman, Rahab, really a Hykos?, Living in Jericho. hummmm.
let's go back to the book of Joshua. the very first verse in chapter 2. Joshua sent two spies, notice secretly, not just to spy the land, but was to spy secretly. it not spying secretly, already?. so why add secretly to spying?. unless, (?????????, I'll hold this for last).

lets look again at the title in question, "Harlot", that is given to Rahab. this word Harlot carries a different meaning depending on how it's used. example. sometimes we might have to use an old English dictionary to get to the root meaning of old English words, especially if using the KJV. and to understand these words, and their meaning, and way of thinking. one needs an old English Dictionary for help.
Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English: H`ARLOT, n.
1. A woman who prostitutes her body for hire; a prostitute; a common woman.
2. In Scripture, one who forsakes the true God and worships idols. Isa 1.
3. A servant; a rogue; a cheat.
H`ARLOT, a. Wanton; lewd; low; base.
H`ARLOT, v.i. To practice lewdness.
HAR’LOT, noun. 1. a woman who prostitutes her body for hire; 2. a base person
HAR’LOT, adjective. wanton; lewd; low; base.
a while back, a person once told me quote, "I need to pick up, and read a Hebrew bible", to see what the Hebrew say directly. well I did, online. and in this research I found that a Hebrew bible states the word in Joshua 2:1 , in our bibles, "harlot", is translated as innkeeper. here is what it said. 1. "And Joshua the son of Nun sent two men out of Shittim to spy secretly, saying, Go see the land and Jericho. And they went, and came to the house of an innkeeper named Rahab, and they lay there".
this can be found at the site. http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15786 Chabad.org Libary a Jewish bible web site.
ok, I got the Hebrew 911 on Rahab, she's an innkeeper. but I need a second witness to confirm this. I came across another web site called the, "The Samaritan Chronicle". Or The Book of Joshua, the son of Nun. Translated from the Arabic, by Oliver Turnbull Crane, M.A. John B. Alden, Publisher, New York, 1890. please read the preface first.
in chapter 13 it gives the account of the two spies that was sent out. and it also gives the account of the two spies with Rahab. see how they describe her. here is the web site. http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/sam/chron1.htm read for yourself.

I believe totally in Gods Word, the bible. It's just the translators I question. to be human is to error. or REALLY?.
this is my question. just looking over the material presented, just maybe, again, maybe the two word mention before. " ZOAN”, and “ZONAH”, could have been misread or mistranslated. here's my theory on this. in old English, a lot of people was named by their work or the profession they was in. Family names and last names whose origin relates to a trade or occupation are one of the four most common categories of surname, along with last names. Examples: the name "Smith", a blacksmith, for shoeing horses. it was the universal method of transport, and all horses needed shoes then. "Arkwright" comes from the makers of chests, or arks. The surname "Dymond", meaning dairyman. so my reasoning, is this, Rahab profession/occupation could have been misread/translated?. that's all what I'm asking, a second look at this woman occupation. or,what if this woman Rahab, her occupation was NOT a mistake, but a cover up?. lets first look at it as a mistake. to understand this mistake, yes this is the word I will use for now, "MISTAKE". I'll use capital letters in the word, because it was a big mistake. or, ? ????? ?? something else?. I don't believe, and I hope not, that it was intentionally made, to mislead. but these are my finding.

let's look at the scripture again. Joshua chapter 2 verse one, one more time. "And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there".
the word used in the verse, "Harlot", is the word Zanah. H2181, and not the word Zonah, which is the cognate, which is translated in the new testament as "porne",G4204. check it out in your bibles. so what is the difference. to put it in layman terms, Zonah, A Female who engage in sexual transgression outside of marriage (one who is not married). Zanah, A Female who engage in sexual transgression who is married, outside the confines of marriage, (one who is married). now just from these definition alone, we can see that we have a problem. the word for Rahab in verse 1 as Harlot is Zanah. if you look at the definition below, and the ones given above, you must have a mate, or be married to render you as a Zanah. question?. was Rehab married then?. the answer is NO. that's the problem, Rehab at the time in question was not married. so she couldn't be a Zanah, because a Zanah, is a married person, and Rehab wasn't married at the time. so right there we can see the problem. a translation problem. there is a difference of a person who commits a sexual sin who's in a marriage and one whose not.
H2181 זָנָה zanah (zaw-naw') v.
1. to commit adultery (usually of the female, and less often of simple fornication, rarely of involuntary ravishment)
2. (figuratively) to commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Jehovah)
[a primitive root (highly-fed and therefore wanton)]
KJV: (cause to) commit fornication, X continually, X great, (be an, play the) harlot, (cause to be, play the) whore, (commit, fall to) whoredom, (cause to) go a-whoring, whorish.

"zanah" (whoring) refer to any sexual relations with someone other than their spouse.
"Zonah" (prostitute) referring to anyone in a sexual relations, non-married.
G4204 πόρνη porne (por'-nay) n.
1. a prostitute, a sex worker
2. (by extension) one who deliberately stimulates or fulfills unwedded sexual desire by dress, speech or conduct
3. (figuratively) an idolater
[feminine of G4205]
KJV: harlot, whore
Root(s): G4205
did you see it. look at the second definition. see the words fulfills unwedded sexual desires. there it is unwedded sexual desires. the problem is this, a Zanah is wedded. so the word Zonah should have been used, which is (fornication), and not Zanah (Adultery).
Now, how do the definition of the new testament Greek word "Porne", G4204, relates to Rehab and the word Zanah. since the new testament word porne covers prostitute, and harlot. either for gain or lust. so that should cover Rahab, right. wrong, and here's why. the translation said she was a Zanah. but that word and definition is only for the married who indulges in sexual intercourse outside the marriage. so that eliminate Rahab from the married sexual arena all together. because as stated she was not married at that time. so the mis-translation do not apply to Rahab. lets see why not.
in the new testament there is the Greek definitions that covers, adultery, and fornication. lets have a look see.
Galatians 5:19 " Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness". if you will notice that fornication is the Greek word G4204 πόρνη porne (por'-nay) n.
1. a prostitute, a sex worker
2. (by extension) one who deliberately stimulates or fulfills unwedded sexual desire by dress, speech or conduct
3. (figuratively) an idolater
[feminine of G4205]
KJV: harlot, whore
Root(s): G4205
and the Greek word for adultery is G3430 μοιχεία moicheia (moy-khei'-ah) n.
1. adultery
[from G3431]
KJV: adultery
Root(s): G3431
now these two words is totally different as you can see. so why use G4204 πόρνη porne (por'-nay) in reference to Rahab, when you have a word to describe both sin perfectly, and correctly?. I'll speak on that later.
Now a little teaching, lets look at this Greek word G4204 πόρνη porne (por'-nay) n. again in new testament scripture, the word is used, which is very well known. Matthews 19:9 " And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery".
right off the bat, most Christians, and unlearned people would say. see fornication is for married people too. answer, NO. In some passages of scriptures, the context is referring to "Doctrine" and NOT the sexual sins of the same name. for farther study on this go to this web site. http://www.rmsbibleengineering.com/Page2/Adultery/Page2_1.html

back to the topic. if you will notice that the definition is concerning doctrine. Jesus here is teaching doctrine. and there are two words we need to look at in reference to the act, or the doctrine of both acts. "fornication and adultery". there is a differences in these words. so why would the new testament translators apply the word G4204 πόρνη porne (por'-nay), to Rahab. knowing full well that the word from the definition that was translated do not apply to her as such. I have a Theory for that, only a theory, ok.

#1. when they translated the Old testament word for harlot, they missed read the text. I hope so.
#2. a deliberated use of the word to hide or to keep secret something.
#3. to cover up a mistake in a previous translation in the old testament. by using, "porne", which would cover all forms of sexual misconduct including the one they mistranslated, and put it on Rahab. thinking that no one would notice it. just like with Mary Madelene?. well, not me.

what's left is her occupation in question. could it be a mistranslated word as well?, and MISTAKEN the word for another description, of her occupation?.
1. the word for food (מזון, "mazon", literally means ‘nourisher’. “ZOON”, ZON, or “ZUN”. here's a take from morden Hebrew, זונה (pron. ‘zonah‘), (see which word they uesd for the new testament translation), and is used for the English word ‘prostitute’ in modern Israeli society. Is this what it always meant? Actually, no. The root of the word (זנה) is related to the word for food (מזון, ‘mazon‘) and literally means ‘nourisher. just like the Chaldee Targum understood the term, "nourisher".

I have 2 personal theory on this. is this an occupation mis-translation. flax and its use. the making of cloths and linen. going back to a famous city in Egypt, name “ZOAN”. and the word, “ZONAH”, which means harlot. see the similarity.

1st. Conclusion, from a sexual unlawful transgression stand point of view. this research disprove that she was a harlot. if Rahab was not a harlot, why should we continue to call our Lord and savior great grandmother....... back then according to the flesh, a whore/Harlot. that would be disrespectful. so, could, just could it be that the apostles were saying in the book of Hebrews and James concerning, "Rehab" that this Innkeeper had great FAITH?. and not the Harlot.

now my second personal theory. Looking at all that has been said , could this be the best kept military spy mission in the history of the bible or even in the world. A secret operation that has been kept secret even unto this day?. Who would have suspected a woman spy in that day and time. Could Rahab had use this cover as an innkeeper to help the spies to gather critical information on the city?.

what you think, or believe?.

May God bless.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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The LXX has prostitute:
G4204 πόρνη porne (por'-nay) n.
1. a prostitute, a sex worker

Targum Jonathan to the Prophets has:
פונדקית noun פונדקיתא
1 JLA innkeeper, hostess (prostitute)

The targumists are known to have altered the text to suit their needs.
 

101G

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LOL, you didn't read all of the post, did you, :D. Lord help your People.
 

HammerStone

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I don't understand why it is necessary to prove the woman not to be a harlot. She was saved by her faith, and that's good enough for me regardless of her background. She's now defined by that and not by harlot, innkeeper or any "master spy" identities.

Seems to just be revisionist thinking to me - if this is the case, then what else did we get wrong?

As for zanah, just go look it up: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H2181

I'm not sure where those definitions are coming from, but no resource I looked at shared the same opinion.
 

101G

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2 HammerStone, Greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I don't understand why it is necessary to prove the woman not to be a harlot.
the stigma is there, and by knowing the facts, it may be removed. Just like Mary Magdalene, she was always referred to as a prostitute, until the church in this century corrected the mistake. so why still call Rahab a Harlot, if she was not?. yet saved, but view as a harlot?. that's not right.


She was saved by her faith, and that's good enough for me regardless of her background. She's now defined by that and not by harlot, innkeeper or any "master spy" identities.

Just sweep it under the rug?. but I'm like the apostle Paul, Acts 16:23 "And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely". Acts 16:35 "And when it was day, the magistrates sent the serjeants, saying, Let those men go. 36 And the keeper of the prison told this saying to Paul, The magistrates have sent to let you go: now therefore depart, and go in peace. 37 But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out". that's my point.

Seems to just be revisionist thinking to me - if this is the case, then what else did we get wrong?
that's my contention, just what else?. we just assume many things. and taken MEN words and never search the scriptures to see if this is really true or not. as our lord said, "if you THINK you have eternal life, search the scriptures. so did the Bereans, Acts 17:11b "they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so". Oh yes, they received the word with all readiness of mind, but they checked it out too.

As for zanah, just go look it up: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H2181

I have already, been done that. and it don't apply to Rahab. re-look at my op.


I'm not sure where those definitions are coming from, but no resource I looked at shared the same opinion.

I get this same response, over and over, "I'm not sure". well be sure, read your commentaries, at least they are helpful here. do I believe in commentaries 100%, NO. but at time they are HELPFUL. and that's all. they are not MY FINAL AUTHORITY.

be blessed.
 

biggandyy

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In reading on your statement about Mary not being a prostitute, the only evidence I see from all of the sources I've examined can be summarized thusly, "since you can't PROVE Mary Magdalene was a prostitute she was never one to begin with." Which is, of course, as absurd as the claims they are purporting to denounce. Also, many of the adherents and expositors of this teaching all share a common thread, Catholicism. I'm not saying this is some Romish plot, it is just interesting one particular denomination is leading the charge.
 

101G

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2 BiggAndyy, greeting in the name of the Lord JESUS the Christ

In reading on your statement about Mary not being a prostitute, the only evidence I see from all of the sources I've examined can be summarized thusly, "since you can't PROVE Mary Magdalene was a prostitute she was never one to begin with." Which is, of course, as absurd as the claims they are purporting to denounce. Also, many of the adherents and expositors of this teaching all share a common thread, Catholicism. I'm not saying this is some Romish plot, it is just interesting one particular denomination is leading the charge.

Roman plot or not. some, and not all did have or was told, or was taught that. and as to Mary Madelene not being a prostitute, that's on them. but our ignorance in the word of God is bliss. example, some, not all still call Mary, the Birth mother of our Lord a virgin. (well known as the virgin Mary). well I'm sorry to tell some, she is no virgin, NOT NOW. is not the bible clear, "say, and speak the SAME thing?". if you know that the woman was not a prostitute, then this topic don't apply to you. or the lord's birth Mother, not a virgin. but to those who don't know let the truth SPEAK. lets say the same thing.

be blessed
 

biggandyy

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I'm saying she probably was, but might not. But I do know it doesn't matter at all in the slightest except maybe as a question on Jeopardy.
 

101G

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I'm saying she probably was, but might not. But I do know it doesn't matter at all in the slightest except maybe as a question on Jeopardy.


#1. Souls are in Jeopardy everyday. I know the humor, ok, :p

#2. If she was post you points to that fact.

#3. But I do know it doesn't matter at all "don't be a scripture monkey?. know the truth.

be blessed.
 

FHII

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What do I believe? Personally, I don't look down on Rehab if she was a harlot. Rehab in mentioned in Hebrews 11 which is called a "roll call of OT folks who had faith". She's called a harlot there too. She's also mentioned in James 2 as being a harlot. I looked at the greek definition of that, and it could either be a whore (literally) or an idolator (figuratively). Just my opinion based on scripture, but being an idolator is worse than being a whore. Being a spiritual whore is worse than being a prostitute in the flesh.

You may be on to something, but frankly I doubt it. It's worth looking at for truth's sake, which means a lot to me. But know this... Whether she was an idolator or prostitute makes no difference in the big picture (except again.... I think being an idolator is worse). Especially with me. I am not supporting the profession, but I don't look down on the people who are in it. It's society that looks down on the profession and I too pray that prostitutes be delievered from it. But as one who believes in grace through faith, I have no problem with Rehab being a harlot.
 

101G

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2 FHII, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.

You may be on to something, but frankly I doubt it. It's worth looking at for truth's sake, which means a lot to me. But know this... Whether she was an idolator or prostitute makes no difference in the big picture (except again.... I think being an idolator is worse). Especially with me. I am not supporting the profession, but I don't look down on the people who are in it. It's society that looks down on the profession and I too pray that prostitutes be delievered from it. But as one who believes in grace through faith, I have no problem with Rehab being a harlot.

thanks for your comments. you said it, " It's society that looks down on the profession and I too pray that prostitutes be delievered from it. But as one who believes in grace through faith, I have no problem with Rehab being a harlot". that's the stigma.
my question, is this. what if she was not a harlot?. that's the contention of the research. was this title a "COVER"?. most recognize the mother of our Lord as still a virgin. when she had more children after the birth of the Christ, or the Messiah. do we know her just as mother Mary?, just as with any other woman?. NO. was not Rahab the mother of Boaz, who Ruth married?. but she is alway remembered as a Harlot, or in the new testament, prostitute. don't you think it's about time that we stop calling her that if the research shows it. that's the reason for the topic to draw our attention to this fact. was she REALLY a harlot as the bible say?. or was it a cover to her true Identity.

long ago a t.v. western that was entitle "Gunsmoke". a woman, co-starred with James Arness, who was portraying Marshal Matt Dillon. she, Amanda Blake, was known as, "Miss Kitty Russell", she was a saloon proprietress, not a "madam", or prostitute, but a owner of a Saloon. but most people thought that she was a "madam", including me also. because of the association at the saloon. just as I have said in the surnames of Peoples occupations. this is a good modern example, in my opinion of what Rahab was. that's just my opinion. so be to known for something that you're not is critical. how would one feel if someone call your mother a prostitute/harlot and you know that she's not?. well the same might be here with Rahab. and everything I seen so for points to "INNKEEPER".

LETS SAY THE SAME THING.

be blessed.
 

FHII

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101G said:
thanks for your comments. you said it, " It's society that looks down on the profession and I too pray that prostitutes be delievered from it. But as one who believes in grace through faith, I have no problem with Rehab being a harlot". that's the stigma.
my question, is this. what if she was not a harlot?. that's the contention of the research. was this title a "COVER"?. most recognize the mother of our Lord as still a virgin. when she had more children after the birth of the Christ, or the Messiah. do we know her just as mother Mary?, just as with any other woman?. NO. was not Rahab the mother of Boaz, who Ruth married?. but she is alway remembered as a Harlot, or in the new testament, prostitute. don't you think it's about time that we stop calling her that if the research shows it. that's the reason for the topic to draw our attention to this fact. was she REALLY a harlot as the bible say?. or was it a cover to her true Identity.
Well, again 101G, it wouldn't matter to me either way. Society may have the stigma, but I don't. I live in a pretty tough neighborhood (maybe not like Watts or Comptom, but certainly it's no Beverly Hills), and many of the members of my Church have had difficult pasts... When the Bible says we are no long to look at the flesh, I take that to heart. I remember her as the one who hid the spies first and foremost. It doesn't phase me that she was a harlot or not.

I went back and reread your original post, and something slipped by me. Sorry, I don't think you are going to like my opinion, but you said something to the effect that you believed the Bible, but disagreed with the translation or the translators. I fervently disagree with that. If you believe the Bible is inspired by God then you should also believe he had the power in 1611 or any other day to see to it that the translators got it right. So to say "the translators were in error on this part" opens up a flood gate to question every other word in the Bible. I'm simply not going to do that or accept it.
 

101G

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2-FHII
I went back and reread your original post, and something slipped by me. Sorry, I don't think you are going to like my opinion, but you said something to the effect that you believed the Bible, but disagreed with the translation or the translators. I fervently disagree with that. If you believe the Bible is inspired by God then you should also believe he had the power in 1611 or any other day to see to it that the translators got it right. So to say "the translators were in error on this part" opens up a flood gate to question every other word in the Bible. I'm simply not going to do that or accept it.

thanks for your view, Just like you said that's your opinion. and on Rahab, most don't see it that way either :blink: .
Well, the translators, with God name, they messed that up by adding vowels to the tetragrammaton, and in doing so that change the word of truth into a lie. by coming up different names for God, like Jehovah, and Yahawh, and so many more. which are false made up names anyway. and yes I do believe in the bible. but listen, 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth". question, why is truth rightly divided?. because it can be wrongly divided. we can read one thing and it turn out to be another. so that's why I search the scripture to see if its true. as the apostle Paul said, this is a true saying, here's one. "everything written in the bible is truly stated, but NOT everything said in the bible is a statement of truth".

but here in Rahab case, I believe the translator made an honest maybe, honest mistake?. or the fact that her occupation was intentionally covered up. because in my op. clearly the translator must have known, the difference between fornication and adultery. but when it came to this woman they get it wrong all of a sudden. YES, I question things like this.


but anyway thanks for your opinion.

be blessed.
 

FHII

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It is not only my opinion, but my opinion based on what God said. When Paul advised Timothy to study, he was talking about studying the scriptures and stated (as you mentioned) rightly dividing the word of Truth". As for your quoting Paul as saying, "Not everything stated in the the Bible is a statement of truth."; I'd like a reference to that verse because I haven't read anything remotely like this coming from Paul.

I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the verses that state all scripture is given by inspiration, God's Word continues in every generation, every Word of God is important, and that the scriptures were written for those that would be in the end of the world. But with that in mind, if you are going to propose a theory and defend it, you aren't going to make any ground (at least with me) by claiming today's Bible is in error. It becomes you vs. God's prophecy that his word shall stand forever and scholarly translators (whom I believe were inspired by God). Right or wrong, you are going to lose that battle with me in that I am going to believe what the Bible says over your belief it should say something else.

I'm still interested in hearing your theories, and though I am skeptical of them, there may be a point to it, even within the confines of what the Bible says. I was thinking on your behalf (in other words, I was looking for support to your statements) and there are a few questions that would support what you say. However, there are others that also question your theory.

I'll be happy to continue discussing this, but not on the basis that the Bible is in error.

Thanks
 

101G

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2 FHII, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.

It is not only my opinion, but my opinion based on what God said. When Paul advised Timothy to study, he was talking about studying the scriptures and stated (as you mentioned) rightly dividing the word of Truth". As for your quoting Paul as saying, "Not everything stated in the the Bible is a statement of truth."; I'd like a reference to that verse because I haven't read anything remotely like this coming from Paul.
as the apostle Paul said, this is a true saying, here's one. "everything written in the bible is truly stated, but NOT everything said in the bible is a statement of truth".

I'm sure you misunderstood me, I was using a popular saying of Paul, "this is a true saying". not that he said this, ok. that's all. what followed was my saying. because I said "here's one". then I stated ,"everything written in the bible is truly stated, but NOT everything said in the bible is a statement of truth".

to prove out what I was saying, and you asked for an example, Luke 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted".

now I ask was this a true statement by Pharisee that he was not a sinner, (because there are many here on this board that will disagree. because we just had a topic about "all" have sin and fallen short). and the publican unjust?. but it was truly stated, because he said it, and we have the statement IN THE BIBLE. but is it true?. no, because the Lord Jesus Christ said the publican, whom this Pharisee called unjust went home justified. so was the Pharisee statement true, or truly stated. for it is recorded IN THE B-I-B-L-E. but what he said, was it truth, NO.
I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the verses that state all scripture is given by inspiration, God's Word continues in every generation, every Word of God is important, and that the scriptures were written for those that would be in the end of the world.

see that's the problem with that word, "ALL", and not EVERY, because if every scripture was good for doctrine, then, as the Pharisee said, I don't need Jesus for justification, or righteousness', and justify my self, or be self righteous. see the problem now. yes "ALL" scripture, but not "Every".

But with that in mind, if you are going to propose a theory and defend it, you aren't going to make any ground (at least with me) by claiming today's Bible is in error. It becomes you vs. God's prophecy that his word shall stand forever and scholarly translators (whom I believe were inspired by God). Right or wrong, you are going to lose that battle with me in that I am going to believe what the Bible says over your belief it should say something else.

should I need to address that?, I hope not.
I'm still interested in hearing your theories, and though I am skeptical of them, there may be a point to it, even within the confines of what the Bible says. I was thinking on your behalf (in other words, I was looking for support to your statements) and there are a few questions that would support what you say. However, there are others that also question your theory.

sure you can question my theory. and thanks for being interested. that's what a discussion is all about, and thanks for the concerns.

what a refreshing, intelligent conversation, even with opposing views, thank God.

be blessed.
 

FHII

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101G said:
2 FHII, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.

It is not only my opinion, but my opinion based on what God said. When Paul advised Timothy to study, he was talking about studying the scriptures and stated (as you mentioned) rightly dividing the word of Truth". As for your quoting Paul as saying, "Not everything stated in the the Bible is a statement of truth."; I'd like a reference to that verse because I haven't read anything remotely like this coming from Paul.
as the apostle Paul said, this is a true saying, here's one. "everything written in the bible is truly stated, but NOT everything said in the bible is a statement of truth".
I'm sure you misunderstood me, I was using a popular saying of Paul, "this is a true saying". not that he said this, ok. that's all. what followed was my saying. because I said "here's one". then I stated ,"everything written in the bible is truly stated, but NOT everything said in the bible is a statement of truth".
to prove out what I was saying, and you asked for an example, Luke 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted".

now I ask was this a true statement by Pharisee that he was not a sinner, (because there are many here on this board that will disagree. because we just had a topic about "all" have sin and fallen short). and the publican unjust?. but it was truly stated, because he said it, and we have the statement IN THE BIBLE. but is it true?. no, because the Lord Jesus Christ said the publican, whom this Pharisee called unjust went home justified. so was the Pharisee statement true, or truly stated. for it is recorded IN THE B-I-B-L-E. but what he said, was it truth, NO.
I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the verses that state all scripture is given by inspiration, God's Word continues in every generation, every Word of God is important, and that the scriptures were written for those that would be in the end of the world.
see that's the problem with that word, "ALL", and not EVERY, because if every scripture was good for doctrine, then, as the Pharisee said, I don't need Jesus for justification, or righteousness', and justify my self, or be self righteous. see the problem now. yes "ALL" scripture, but not "Every".
I appreciate your clarifying your statements. Thanks.

I would think you can see there is a big difference between the example you used (Jesus reporting what the pharisee said) and claiming that there is an error in translation. If not, let me show you the difference. What is written in Luke 18 is true. Jesus did not say the pharisee was a sinner or unjust, he just reported what was said. A better example would've been Annanias and Sapharas because they flat out lied and got caught in the lie. In both cases, the account was true.

That is different from saying the translators and the Bible they translated contains error. You are saying that there are lies (perhaps more politely put, errors) in the book of Joshua, Hebrews and James.

I sincerely can't support your notion based on that. We can look at other things for discussion like the flax, the meaning of Rahabs name and a few other things I'm surprised you didn't touch on... For example, what are spies from Israel on a military mission doing with a "harlot"? Also, how are you going to run a brothel or any other business of prostitution with your two brothers and father hanging around all the time? Seems to be bad for business. Even the location of her house (I think it was on the wall and thus the outskirts of town) may be called into question as an inn being near the wall is a pretty good location (though I suppose so would a harlot looking for weary travelers.... But I don't know much about the biz!)There are a few other things....

In the end she is recognized as a harlot by 3 different authors of the Bible.... That's kind of hard to get around, but it certainly is interesting to look at other possibilities.
 

101G

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Jesus did not say the pharisee was a sinner or unjust, he just reported what was said. A better example would've been Annanias and Sapharas because they flat out lied and got caught in the lie. In both cases, the account was true.


I don't think you are reading what I'm posting, but anyway, what the Pharisee said was it true yes or no?
 

FHII

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101G said:
Jesus did not say the pharisee was a sinner or unjust, he just reported what was said. A better example would've been Annanias and Sapharas because they flat out lied and got caught in the lie. In both cases, the account was true.


I don't think you are reading what I'm posting, but anyway, what the Pharisee said was it true yes or no?
I did read your post and understood it... However, by you asking that question I'm not sure you are understanding what I'm getting at. In any sense, persuing it would be getting off topic.

I do have a question. You had stated twice that you believe her title as harlot was a cover up. I assume you are suggesting it was a cover for her being a spy. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Who was she intending to fool? Verse 3 of Josh 2 says the king sent his men to Rahab.... Don't you think the king had knowledge of Rahab's profession as either a Harlot or an innkeeper? I mean, the king himself may not have known, but certainly as a citizen of the city he could've easily known what her occupation was. In short, I don't understand how she could've used this cover up to an advantage nor do I understand why she would've used it in the first place. Perhaps you could further explain your conclusion to me.
 

101G

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2 FHII, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I did read your post and understood it

apparently not. but, I honor you question.
you said,
I do have a question. You had stated twice that you believe her title as harlot was a cover up. I assume you are suggesting it was a cover for her being a spy. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Who was she intending to fool? Verse 3 of Josh 2 says the king sent his men to Rahab.... Don't you think the king had knowledge of Rahab's profession as either a Harlot or an innkeeper? I mean, the king himself may not have known, but certainly as a citizen of the city he could've easily known what her occupation was. In short, I don't understand how she could've used this cover up to an advantage nor do I understand why she would've used it in the first place. Perhaps you could further explain your conclusion to me.

#1. what is the whole purpose of Spying?, that's right, for YOU not to know one true IDENTITY. if you will, notice Joshua 2:1 "And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there". is not spying by itself secret. but to add secretly to spying, to me that's DEEP UNDERCOVER. now just because someone OWNS a business. dose not mean that they work in that business. may people own a business, but never work in the business. as the example I gave of miss "Kitty", on Gunsmoke. for years, everyone including myself, thought the woman was the madam or a prostitute. in reality she was not. see how people assume things.
and #2. these are my SUGGESTIONS. and #3. where in the text did the King call Rahab a Harlot?. since you said maybe or not the king knew here occupation. if he was king I'm sure he SHOULD HAVE known her occupation. if not why sent men to her house?. but did the scriptures say go to the harlot house?, if so point out the scripture then.
now as for Harlots goes, I question the title, because even in 1Kings 3:16- there is a famous story about two harlot, or Innkeepers. read clark, and pool commentary on 1Kings 3:16. and you will see why I question the term Harlot. and also here in chapter 2 verse 1.

thanks for the question, because they needs to be asked.

be blessed.
 

FHII

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"what is the whole purpose of Spying?, that's right, for YOU not to know one true IDENTITY. if you will, notice Joshua 2:1 "And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there". is not spying by itself secret. but to add secretly to spying, to me that's DEEP UNDERCOVER. now just because someone OWNS a business. dose not mean that they work in that business"

Again, who was she trying to hide her identity from? The king and his soldiers? She was not a spy before the two Israelites came to Jericho. Why would she need a false cover? If she was a prostitute OR an innkeeper before this incident, she's going to tell the soldiers the truth on that matter. She was aiding spys, but was not a spy herself by trade, and if the soldiers didn't know her profession before hand and questioned her, she's not going to need to lie about her profession.

As for it being DEEP UNDERCOVER and them "spying secretly".... Well, they did a lousy job because the king knew exactly where they were. Since the spys sought lodging, it really sounds like they looked to pass themselves off as travelers and not stealthy "shadows" sneaking around town.

You mentioned 1 Kings 3 and the famous "dividing the baby" incident. I did read Clarke's commentary. I feel the same way about that as I do about Rahab. I am not going to question the translation of the Bible. However, it is interesting that both in Josh 2 and 1 Kings 3 some versions of the Bible say "prostitute" while others (including the KJV which I stick by) say "harlot". Looking at the defintion of "harlot" it could simply be on who commits adultery. That's not the same as a prostitute. THAT much I can question.