I feel like the answer is "Yes, I would still be a Christian", but then again I haven't been tortured, into denying there is an afterlife.
Torture is a persuasive thing!
Torture is a persuasive thing!
Reader Poll - Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Wow so if you were tortured you would deny the Lord?
That would send you to hell.
Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
David Lamb
Active Member
I think that's reading too much into the post. I read it to mean that the poster didn't claim to know how he would react to persecution/torture, nit saying that he would deny the Lord.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
If one does not make up their mind BEFORE being tortured that they will not deny the Lord... then they are going to deny the Lord because they have not fully committed themselves to the Lord as of yet.
Those that have fully committed themselves to the Lord will always and immediate answer with NO, I will Not deny the Lord, ever!
Anybody that is scared of persecution and or death... is not fully committed to the Lord and needs to fix that sooner rather than later.
When they take the power tools to you and begin cutting off your limbs, will you not deny the Lord?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
So many scriptures are coming to mind right now……
Abraham e.g……when God asked him to sacrifice his son….a completely unthinkable thing for a parent to do, but he unhesitatingly attempted to carry out God’s command…..why? The original account doesn’t say except that it was a test of Abraham’s faith. In what way was it a test? Paul answers that question…
Heb 11:17-19 NIV…
”By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.”
It was Abraham’s love for God and faith in his promises that motivated his actions. He knew that it was through Isaac that all the promises about the future would be fulfilled, so he knew that God would raise him from the dead in order to honor those promises, if he obediently carried out God’s command.
Was service to God in this life, the only thing on his mind? His love for God was first on his mind, but the reward was there too.
We see in this event a pictorial demonstration of God sacrificing his only son, and it was the resurrection hope that allowed Jesus to carry out his earthly mission….again out of love for God and mankind in the present, but with restoration of life in mind.
Also Paul wrote at 1 Cor 15:16-19…
”For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.” (NIV)
The resurrection hope is what motivated Jesus and all the Christian martyrs to remain faithful to the death.
God created humans to be incentive oriented….we all work for a reward….even if it is the completion of a personal project that was labor intensive.……
In most Western cultures, the harder you work the bigger the reward, proving that we can be slaves to the reward itself, so is that what God wants from his earthly servants? Just enduring for the reward? Or is it the icing on the cake? I believe that a balanced view of both is required.
Jesus and the first Christians, as well as those ancient servants of God, had a balanced view of the present and the future, knowing that this life is not all there is, but still must be lived in faith…and “faith without works is dead”. Actions prove our faith. (James 2:20-23)
Heb 11:6 confirms this…
”And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” (NIV)
We are not working against God or Christ by considering a reward with an action…it’s the way we are created.
God is a rewarder of faith/love-driven obedience….not fear-driven obedience or only reward-driven obedience.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I am saying that God designed us to be incentive oriented, so unless we understand that, we have a reason to question why we need the reward as an incentive to go behind normal human behavior. What motivated the martyrs? How could Christians face the lions in the Roman areas, if it were not for the hope of the resurrection?
Faith motivated by love puts us in line for the reward…..if you were suffering and dying for no reason, what would be the point in living?
So, salvation by works? (as a reward)
What if it is a scam perpetrated by the church?
In that case death would be a reward.
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Why would I want to deny the Lord and end up in hell???
That's what slow people do!
Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
I'll not be one of the ones Jesus spoke of in Matthew 10:33 as I do not love my life or seek to preserve my life here on earth.
Romans 8:18-23
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
If need be, I'll gladly accept whatever they want to throw at me here on earth in exchange for spending eternity with the Lord as being in His presence makes their torture to be child's play in comparison.
One way you know that someone is not right with the Lord is by their fear of death and their fear of what men can do unto them which shows they are worried about themselves, self preservation in that they loves their lives and well being before they love the Lord.
St. SteVen said:
When they take the power tools to you and begin cutting off your limbs, will you not deny the Lord?
I'm pretty sure you would deny the Lord long before the power tools came out.
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When they take the power tools to you and begin cutting off your limbs, will you not deny the Lord?
Did the Apostle Peter end up in hell?
I'm pretty sure you would deny the Lord long before the power tools came out.
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
No, if you know God's Word you know Peter kept the faith unto the end.
Well, it's a good thing your opinion is meaningless.
I've already faced certain death numerous times and was excited about the possibility that it could be the end and I'd go be with the Lord.
I'll be glad when they day comes to depart... I'm looking forward to it!
The stuff I came out of left me where I really have no desire to remain on Club Earth... but the Lord promised long life to those that actually believe Pslams 91 so I'm finding useful things to do to be of service to others.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
PS95
Well-Known Member
1)Absolutely!!! Growing up the way I did I only desired to know Him better not for gain of anything in particular. I had no understanding of any afterlife other than something that sounded hard to me. Living 1000 yrs and never sinning to pass a test.. I didn't fully buy into what I was taught. Something was missing big time.
I just saw it as incredible to be able to get to know my creator, so I asked Him if I could!
The value is daily- knowing our creator and walking in His spirit- being given grace to see things they way they really are. Grasping the Love in Jesus leaves me speechless, still. There is always value in love as opposed to the way the world works. I could go on and on here!
2) I don't know- that would be up to Him. I would hope He would change their hearts since His love in us casts out fear.
Fear of God and "fear" are two different things.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
There is more to life than being on a talk board.... did you not know that?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Nope…..salvation can never come by works alone. The reward is there clearly stated in Scripture.
We need faith along with works as James said…..”faith without works is dead”. (James 2:18-26)
But faith must be motivated by love…….not fear…..and not for reward.
If it is “a scam perpetrated by the church” then as Paul said…..our faith in the resurrection makes us objects of pity.….deluded fools, suffering persecution and death for an invalid reason.
We have to have the big picture to understand why Jesus did what he did, and why we need to have the same kind of faith in his God and Father.
“Know your enemy” is the best strategy in defeating him.
In that case, life itself would be pointless to begin with. Why give us life if it only ends in a multitude of ways to die? Can you count how many ways there are to lose your life? It’s staggering!
If death were a natural event, we would not fight so hard to live…..and martyrdom works against all our natural instincts. No one wants to die if they have a decent quality of life. Even when old age encroaches, there is still a young person living in an old body…..we only age externally….inside I am still a 30 year old!
“Happiness” is also relevant to our circumstances.…our quality of life. Wants and needs were simple in times past.
I remember as a kid playing in the street with the other kids in our neighborhood, and we had no tech toys, only maybe a bike or a scooter and we were outside in fresh air, playing games, using our imagination, and eating what our mothers cooked, often with home grown vegetables.
It was a whole other life…..we were relatively poor, but happy. Most people were like us…we didn’t really know any rich people. We all knew our neighbors and had get togethers often. I lament that today’s children do not know that life we enjoyed. So many people don’t even know who lives next door to them these days.
Wants and needs today are vastly different. Most people now view material possessions as a measure of success. But united happy families are becoming relics of the past. Morality has ceased to exist and true happiness eludes people in a “dog eat dog” world. So have we really progressed…..or in many ways, regressed?
Why did God give us life…..if this is all there is? Don’t you hope for something better? Isn’t everything in you telling you that this life makes no sense without the hope that God’s word gives us? (Heb 6:17-20)
I really pity those whose faith is based on the fear of hell…..how could you love a god who holds that kind of emotional blackmail over you?….do as you are told…or else!
Berean
Well-Known Member
What purpose would there be in Christianity if there were no afterlife? If God told me, "Whether you serve me or not, this life is all there is," would I still serve him? That's a difficult question to answer, because the world as we know it was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Every religion, whether Christian or pagan, has rewards or consequences.
Personally, I see Christianity as more than just a system of rewards and consequences—it's about faith, relationship, purpose, and the way one chooses to live their life. If there were no afterlife consequences, some might argue that being a Christian would still have immense value in shaping one's character, guiding moral choices, fostering community, and providing peace and meaning.
Some Christian perspectives emphasize that faith isn't just about securing a good afterlife, but about love, grace, and reflecting Christ's teachings here and now. A life lived in kindness, service, and connection can be fulfilling regardless of what happens after death.
We see the consequences of those who live outside of Christian principles. A life empty, devoid of meaning and purpose. Should we be like those mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:32b "If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”
Would I live a life of debauchery? Drinking, drugging, and having illicit sex? Those who live that life-style don't live long. No, I suspect, if the Lord told me, "this is it, serve me or not, you're born, you live, you die, you're gone," I would still live the life of a Christian, as it is the best way of living.
You mean like those deathbed conversions? From a biblical perspective, Christianity emphasizes a relationship with God based on love, faith, and sincere devotion, not just fear of consequences. Certain passages in scripture suggest God values the heart and intentions behind a person's faith rather than just external actions.
For example, in 1 John 4:18, it says, "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment." This suggests that faith motivated solely by fear may not be the full experience of what God intends for believers.
Some teach that God’s grace is vast and that even imperfect faith can lead to transformation. Others might argue that a faith based only on fear could lack true spiritual depth. The idea of God's mercy and justice plays a significant role in how this question is considered across different traditions. Personally, I don't believe He forces anyone to serve Him. He's a God of love, and those who don't serve Him do so because they are blinded by the adversary. There will come a time when Satan will be tossed into the abyss and mankind will learn the truth and will be given the opportunity to grow in grace and knowledge and in the end, they will have reach human perfection as a result. Then Satan will be let loose for a short period, allowed to deceive. Those who follow him, will be sentence to death, extinction along with Satan. Those who remain faithful will enjoy eternal life.
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Berean
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If you have to ask what Christian “works” are, then how can you call yourself a Christian.
What works did Jesus send his disciples out to do, until “the end of the age”? A work that Jesus said he would be “with them” in carrying it out. (Matt 10:11-13; Matt 23:14; Matt 28:19-20)
It required going out and making disciples and baptizing them….teaching to observe all that he commanded.
(Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20) It is a search and rescue mission.
Our faith is dead if we don’t have the works to back it up. Anyone can call themselves a Christian but unless you are engaged in the work that Jesus assigned to all of his disciples, you have not obeyed the Master.
You have missed the point of the assignment and refused to engage in it. It was to be done as “a witness to all the nations” before “the end”…….the same “end“ that required our endurance as we obeyed the Master. (Matt 24:13)
Berean
Well-Known Member
I just wanted make sure we were on the same page as to the "work", I don't want to assume. Is that okay?
I guess we weren't on the same page. You see, YOU see "works" as just preaching "going out and making disciples and baptizing them." The works spoken of here in the context of James is character development.
James is talking about good works that show a believer's faith. He believes that real faith is not just a mental agreement, but one that is shown through real actions. James uses the word "works" to refer to the actions someone takes because of their faith. These works don't aim to gain salvation; instead, they are the natural outcome of a genuine faith. He points out that if someone says they have faith but doesn't show it through their actions, their faith is basically ineffective or dead. He gives examples such as helping those in need (like feeding the hungry and clothing the naked) and trusting in God, as shown by Abraham and Rahab. His message is that faith should be active and alive, not just a passive belief. A living faith will result in good works and a life of obedience to God. It's important to realize that James is not saying salvation comes from works. He is saying that true faith will always lead to good works and is connected to actions.
Paul stated that God's plan for us involves developing our character. "We also rejoice in our troubles, knowing that troubles produce endurance; and endurance, character; and character, hope" (Romans 5:3-4). Building Christian character is a crucial part of the process God uses to change us into His eternal children. He desires children who reflect Him. Tested, pure, and valuable character is what we can carry with us into eternity.
Paul aimed to follow Jesus Christ, which led him to cultivate a model Christian character (1 Corinthians 11:1).
Paul provided numerous guidelines on how Christians can think, behave, and grow to be like Christ. He practiced what he preached. His demonstration of Christian character was clear to the congregations he visited—and to us through his letters and the book of Acts.
There's more to obeying the Master than witnessing. You seem to focus on one aspect and that is the preaching work, because it seems it's the only thing you know, but your message is constantly changing, if you truly were obeying the Master, you would do as he taught, you would do as His apostles taught, that is accept His invitation to "run for the prize of the high calling." (Phil 3:14)
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