Real Faith

[aspen]

Hi aspen,

I have no quarrel with your statement, although I would suggest that God does His best to choose everyone, but some people reject that, and some would quote Jesus saying, 'Many are called but few are chosen.'



All I wanted to point out is that we are not saved by grace alone. We are saved through faith in what has been offered through grace.

Agreed.

 

[Kidron]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Aspen writes....And that 'judging' is a one way street for you, right? Based on the content and tone of your posts, you have qualified yourself as the judge of everyone here - yet you are also ultra sensitive towards criticism of your own posts - how superior!


My Tone is "confident, and i never judge a person on a forum, as how could i without seeing them?
BUT, i will take exception to what a person writes if that person defines themselves online as a Christian and then contradicts the scripture.


Aspen writes....Ok, I missed the part where I said "we are born this way". Of course, you are missing the real irony here, which is that Christians are so vehemently opposed to the idea that people can be born gay, yet preach that people are born into Original Sin - hmmm.


The reason Christians believe in "original sin" is because this is explained in Romans 5-8 by Paul, as the reality of our condition.
The reason Christians believe that homosexual sex is perverted deviant behavior/lifestyle....is because it is said to be so, by Paul, in Romans Chapter 1.
As you are apparently ither a Catholic or someone who does not follow the teachings of Paul where they contradict your politically correct "all things are to be tolerated" mentality, then i would not expect you to do less then cheer-lead for the cause of "gay" relations.....which by the way, you continue to do in your own sweetly modest way.



Aspen writes....In any case, I believe homosexuality is a sin - if you had really read my posts, there is no way you could have missed that point. My point was clear in the quote you provided - God meets us where we are at and brings us to a better place - churches should be hospitals for the sick, not havens for the self righteous, As far as Lady GaGa - I will leave her with you - I am not interested.

Well, i appreciate that you are trying to omit your original position, however, you have already implied that you dont really believe the homosexual lifestyle to be that bad.........or as you put it .......there are things that are worse.



Aspen writes...Peacemaker, tolerance junkie - call it what you will; Jesus called them blessed.


Jesus never called any "homosexual" blessed, nor did he ever agree with or bless someone who would call homosexuals or their supporters blessed....
So, you are neither blessed nor right...and your form of tolerance is more specifically defined as "blind tolerance".



K[/background]

God's Grace is the only way that we can be justified in the first place - God chooses us, we do not choose Him.

Aspen.....Are you really the worst of the worst type of heretic?
Are you really someone who, based on your post here, believes that God chooses some for heaven and chooses others for hell?
Are you a hyper=Calvanist?...."only the predestined elect can be save", "vessels fitted for destruction"... theological flake?
Lets hope not, but i'll let you clarify....



K

 

[aspen]

Kidron said,

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]My Tone is "confident, and i never judge a person on a forum, as how could i without seeing them?[/background]

I didn't say your judgments are accurate. A confident tone leaves room for dialogue - your tone leaves no room for dialogue that is why it is arrogant.

BUT, i will take exception to what a person writes if that person defines themselves online as a Christian and then contradicts the scripture.

And I take exception at being falsely accused so here we stand.

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]The reason Christians believe in "original sin" is because this is explained in Romans 5-8 by Paul, as the reality of our condition.
The reason Christians believe that homosexual sex is perverted deviant behavior/lifestyle....is because it is said to be so, by Paul, in Romans Chapter 1.
As you are apparently ither a Catholic or someone who does not follow the teachings of Paul where they contradict your politically correct "all things are to be tolerated" mentality, then i would not expect you to do less then cheer-lead for the cause of "gay" relations.....which by the way, you continue to do in your own sweetly modest way.[/background]

Yes, I know you don't like Catholics - tough. I also noticed that you never answered my question - is that because you cannot?

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Well, i appreciate that you are trying to omit your original position, however, you have already implied that you dont really believe the homosexual lifestyle to be that bad.........or as you put it .......there are things that are worse.[/background]

Well, I am glad you can appreciate me - even if you have to make up a reason to do so. I stated my original position in the statement you are pretending to address right now - scroll up. As far as there being worse sin - absolutely, I explain that as well, but once again, instead of addressing my point, you have decided to restate what I actually believe. Rather than acknowledging that I am talking about the impact of sin on the whole person, you have decided that I must be rewriting scripture by claiming that God ranks sin. You have a right to your opinions and your fantasies, I suppose.

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Jesus never called any "homosexual" blessed, nor did he ever agree with or bless someone who would call homosexuals or their supporters blessed....
So, you are neither blessed nor right...and your form of tolerance is more specifically defined as "blind tolerance".[/background]

Actually, it is called unconditional love for the person, not their sin - it is part of our sanctification. Once again, I see you are putting words in my mouth by claiming that I am trying to say that Jesus called homosexuals blessed - pure fantasy - your imagination borders on delusional.

You are right about one thing though - Jesus never did mention homosexuals or homosexuality.

Are you really the worst of the worst type of heretic?

Well, you tell me - like I need to ask for your opinion....

Are you really someone who, based on your post here, believes that God chooses some for heaven and chooses others for hell?

I am a molinist, actually - now go look it up and come back and tell me I am headed for Hell.

Are you a hyper=Calvanist?...."only the predestined elect can be save", "vessels fitted for destruction"... theological flake?
Lets hope not, but i'll let you clarify....

Yep. You got me! I am the first Catholic hyper-Calvinist! You better cut me in half and burn one half on a Protestant stake and put the other half on trial for heresy before the Inquisition - just to make sure your justice is complete. Where do you get this stuff? I know, you must be the only member of the Unity Church of Christ.....

 

[Kidron]

Hi Kidron,

Thanks for your reply to me, I will get round to replying, after some preceding comments. The first of these is, please find the Bible verses which you use to assert that it is your faith which activates the power of God, separate from His specific leading (such as Jesus waited for, from His Father).

Dfly, what is faith?
Faith, is it a definition in Hebrews?.......is that it?..........."substance of things hoped for"..........yeah that one.?
Obtuse,.
Let me give you another idea..........Faith is the spiritual ability of a Christian to direct divine intervention into their circumstance or crisis based on their legal birthright position as a Child of God to have your prayers answered..
That is the context of my Thread.
Now...
I guess, you need to tell me what it was that you used to access the gift of salvation to become born again, as you are beginning to sound as tho you are a "predestined elect" who God chose and you had nothing to do with it.
If not, then what did you do with the Gospel so that you were justified by it after you heard it?


Did you note that Foreigner was first of all speaking to MR ROSENBERGER, and then to neophyte? If you did, you'd have understood his comments were not directed at you. He even mentions this obliquely. Please go back and read.


Ok well, if i connected dots that were not directed at me, then it'll all work out.
No harm no foul., and my kind regards to Foreigner, if i misunderstood his context.
I find this forum very difficult to write on or even edit, as the interface mechanism for doing so is completely non-user-friendly.
Maybe its because i use Google Chrome, but whatever it is, even writing a sentence here is a real thorn.
Often i find the way this interface posts quotes to be , at least, confusing and the fact that the edit system disappears after a few minutes is just awful.
Even this very min i need to edit something i said to Aspen because the sentence is out of place in the post, and i cant go back and do it, and i just wrote it 20 mins ago..........That is just a mess, and very frustrating.
On the other hand, this is the only Christian Forum ive ever been on where the MODS who disagree with your theology
dont come running and castrate your posts and Threads on behalf of their "friends" here..
So, thats a blessing.


Therefore, you really opened yourself up to some valid criticism from him. It would have been more constructive to challenge what he said, because it's not 'biblical', in a reasoned 'tone', than the one you chose.

Aspen and his criticism are very light in the boots, so whatever he wants to sling my way, has no effect.



I fully agree that we are new creations in Christ, He in us, one with the Father, but, I don't agree that it's 'my faith'. I may need 'my courage' to exercise the faith which God brings to me when He directs me specifically, but not my faith. My faith would be useless. But 'His faith', is powerful. It raises the dead, heals the sick, cleanses the leper, and so on.


Dfly, its your faith that activates the Salvation that saved you, as we are "justified by OUR Faith".....just like Abraham was justified by HIS faith which is why your bible tells you in Romans 4:11 that Abraham is the "father of all them that = BELIEVE"....(thats you).
And now, its our job, to do the work of Christ using the spiritual gifts and the power of the very Christ who lives in us.
He is the power that is in us that we, by our faith, use to do the will of God.
We are channels for the divine flow........or as Christ said.......we are the branches and he is the Vine.

As I read John 15, His power is only in me as I rest in Him. It's not something I take and run with, separately from Him. I know you think that's not what you're saying, but the moment you say this or that is mine, I'm nervous. It's too heavy a burden for me to bear unless God has given me a word, sent me to deliver it, and backed me up all the way. (I don't just mean speaking. I include 'doing' in the wide range of possibilities.)

Dfly....You are already in him, you are already "IN CHRIST", whether you are "resting" or "weight training" or not.
You are In Christ and he is IN you, and that is a situation that is "sealed" by the Holy Spirit which is called BORN AGAIN.
So, the CHRIST that is in you, is not part of the power of God, or a sample, or a piece.
It is the fullness of Christ , who is God, who is IN YOU.
Understand?
And you are supposed to be a channel, a flow through device, and your faith is the valve that opens the flow.
A simple analogy..................say you go in the bathroom because you need to wash your hands.
Can you wash them if you dont turn on the faucet?
Can you?
But isn' the water available?
So what is the problem?
Well, the water to wash is there, but the valve , the faucet....= is not being activated.
So,.... Jesus is the water , the power, and the faucet is your FAITH.
If you dont know how to turn on the faucet then the Christ who is in you, can do nothing THROUGH YOU.
See it?
So, getting a prayer answered is not a Christ problem, its a faith(less) problem.
The faith-faucet is not being turned on do to lack of knowledge or understanding of HOW and WHY.

I look forward to the Bible verses you have which show that we initiate the exercise of faith.

"without faith, (YOURS) it is impossible to please God"......Hebrews 11:6

"If >YOU< HAVE......faith as a grain of mustard seed, you can say unto this tree, Be plucked up by the root and be planted in the sea, and it would obey >YOU<....Luke 17:6

Therefore i say to you....What things soever you desire, when you pray....BELIEVE (faith) that you receive them, and you shall have them".....Mark 11:24

and finally Dfly, there is this...

Mark 11:22 ...."and Jesus answering saith to you, "HAVE FAITH IN GOD" .
Now did you notice Jesus is not telling you to have faith in faith, or to have faith in the faith God put in you?
He is telling YOU to have YOUR FAITH and where to put it.........= IN GOD.
And then he tells you what YOUR FAITH can do if you us IT (your faith) correctly.

"for I say unto you (Dfly) that whosoever (you) shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not doubt....but shall BELIEVE =(FAITH) that those things which YOU said shall come to pass......YOU shall have whatsoever you said..

24....therefore I (JESUS) say unto you Dfly, What >things< soever you desire, when you pray, BELIEVE= (FAITH) that you receive them, and you SHALL HAVE THEM...

done deal.

The only issue is to understand HOW to have and execute REAL FAITH so that you can get what Jesus said wlll manifest......= to manifest as it should..

See my [font="'comic sans ms"]"REAL FAITH"[/font] Thread for the "method", the "means" and the "understanding".





K

................

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

I like your point about original sin being implicated in the fulmination of homosexual inclinations, however for the most part I believe that an older person interacted with a younger person to light the match, so to speak, where before there may only have been a little heat. I also believe strongly - I cannot emphasis how strongly this is true in other realms of natural (rather than unnatural) inclinations - that people are born with a tendancy to behave normally, and that this does its best to break through in every way. But, they are thwarted sometimes, and react wrongly sometimes, and sometimes they are deflected away from normality by events and circumstances. Nevertheless, God intends people to be whole, and healed and 'normal', and, homosexual desires can be annulled at the cross while God transforms the inner man.

You are right about one thing though - Jesus never did mention homosexuals or homosexuality.

This is not true. His use of the word 'fornication' covers it in Matthew three times, and Mark repeats one of these.

Anyway, Paul mentions it often enough for no-one to be able to say it's not covered in the New Testament.

 

[aspen]

The word fornication is translated as sexual immorality - isn't this the real reason some Christians are opposed to legalizing gay marriage? The same reason they were opposed so strongly to having homosexuality removed from the DSM - that it will normalize the behavior in our culture and therefore, no longer be considered to be in the category of fornication or sexual immorality?

Condemning a sin that you have no idea what it is like to be tempted by is too good to lose, right? Common - admit it.

Look, this may offend some of you that are not already offended, but unless you have been tempted by homosexuality or a long term relationship with someone who tried to suppress one of the most basic needs we have just so God would not reject them - you have no idea what you are talking about.

In a fallen world, perfection may not happen until sanctification is completed.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

The word fornication is translated as sexual immorality

I realise modern translations use this phrase, but it really (for me) doesn't express the extremes which are also covered by 'fornication'.

Condemning a sin that you have no idea what it is like to be tempted by is too good to lose, right? Common - admit it.

It's not about the world's standards! It's about God's and His power to heal and deliver and save a soul.

Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments,... and He healed them.

Many, many homosexual practitioners have been healed and delivered fully. The gospel is to them, too.

 

[aspen]

Hi aspen,



I realise modern translations use this phrase, but it really (for me) doesn't express the extremes which are also covered by 'fornication'.



It's not about the world's standards! It's about God's and His power to heal and deliver and save a soul.

Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments,... and He healed them.

Many, many homosexual practitioners have been healed and delivered fully. The gospel is to them, too.

The research does not back up your claims about homosexuals being healed and fully delivered from their sin - in fact, the reverse is true. Many, many people who try to live a heterosexual life when they are clearly attracted to the same sex end up depressed and suicidal - and what kind of life is that for the spouses of these gay-gone-straight people? Are they just supposed to take one for the team by sacrificing their own sexuality? No gay person who is married to an opposite sex partner is going to have a truly heterosexual marriage.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

The research does not back up your claims about homosexuals being healed and fully delivered from their sin - in fact, the reverse is true. Many, many people who try to live a heterosexual life when they are clearly attracted to the same sex end up depressed and suicidal - and what kind of life is that for the spouses of these gay-gone-straight people? Are they just supposed to take one for the team by sacrificing their own sexuality? No gay person who is married to an opposite sex partner is going to have a truly heterosexual marriage.

Everything you've said here, shows you don't believe there is deliverance for them, and I am guessing here, that the 'research' which you've read will have been largely secular, and will not have been a survey of men and women in Bible-believing churches who have been delivered and healed in this area of their lives. And those you've met who can't shake off 'same-sex attraction' (which is not a universal aspect of it, anyway) are likewise not receiving the kind of spiritual ministry, guidance and support which would lead them to experience deliverance. This is no criticism of you, personally. I just need to keep it in the public square (so to speak) that there are men who've been totally delivered, married, had children, and been very happy - solely through obedience to God's work in their lives to bring them into wholeness.

The spiritual influences which overwhelm an adult's normal sexuality, are necessarily very strong, but our God is stronger.

 

[aspen]

Hi aspen,



Everything you've said here, shows you don't believe there is deliverance for them, and I am guessing here, that the 'research' which you've read will have been largely secular, and will not have been a survey of men and women in Bible-believing churches who have been delivered and healed in this area of their lives. And those you've met who can't shake off 'same-sex attraction' (which is not a universal aspect of it, anyway) are likewise not receiving the kind of spiritual ministry, guidance and support which would lead them to experience deliverance. This is no criticism of you, personally. I just need to keep it in the public square (so to speak) that there are men who've been totally delivered, married, had children, and been very happy - solely through obedience to God's work in their lives to bring them into wholeness.

The spiritual influences which overwhelm an adult's normal sexuality, are necessarily very strong, but our God is stronger.

Actually, I do believe there is deliverance for some when they are still on Earth, but I do not think it is due to deliverance ministries. I believe that homosexuals need counseling (Christian or secular) and deep involvement in their sanctification by the HS. They may also need to be in a same sex partnership for a time. I have never seen a homosexual person remain in a continuous happy satisfying, heterosexual relationship after they have become honest with themselves and their spouse. I have seen one homosexual women successfully reunite with her husband after leaving him for another women. First she had to deal with her demons and decide what the best course to take - it had to be the HS that brought her back. Right now, Ted Haggard is choosing to stay with his wife, but he has clearly stated that he is still attracted to men and in every interview I've seen and every documentary, his wife looks like every minute is a living hell for her. Is this really God's victorious living?

Homosexuality is complex - it affects everyone involved and can destroy lives. I think many Christians look at it like the homosexual person is just being willful - nothing could be farther from the truth. Addiction to alcohol and drugs is overwhelming for most people who have to live through recovery - AA has the highest recovery rate, but it is only around 22% - think about how much more difficult homosexuality is for a person? Think about how difficult it was not to think of sex as an adolescent - remember?? Were you ever delivered from that? Some homosexuals simply have to age long enough to have their sex drive diminish before they can overcome their urges - just like adolescents outgrowing their sexual compulsions.

My main concern is the justification and sanctification of souls - I want to see all people in relationship with God - even when they are not perfect and continue to stumble. I think it does far more damage to condemn a person for a sin we cannot understand than it is to continue to extend unconditional love and encouragement to them, until they receive deliverance from the HS. I trust God will bring healing, but not on our timetable.

 

[Kidron]

God's Grace is the only way that we can be justified in the first place - God chooses us, we do not choose Him.

God's Grace is the only way that we can be justified in the first place - God chooses us, we do not choose Him.

Aspen,.

We choose God when we receive Christ.
There is your choice.
WE do it.

The offer of salvation is to "all that would come"....."for God so loved the World that WHOSOEVER".



K

I am a molinist, actually - now go look it up and come back and tell me I am headed for Hell.

Yep. You got me! I am the first Catholic hyper-Calvinist! You better cut me in half and burn one half on a Protestant stake and put the other half on trial for heresy before the Inquisition - just to make sure your justice is complete. Where do you get this stuff? I know, you must be the only member of the Unity Church of Christ.....



Well you know Aspen, a molinist and a Calvanist are a pretty good fit.
Just a slight variation on semantics when considering free will and foreknowledge and providence.

Im certain you'd agree with me that God knowing a thing is not the same as God causing a thing
And im certain you'd agree with me that God cannot hold you accountable for choices he makes for you.
And im pretty certain that you know that there is one thing that proves that God is flexible.
Dont you agree that prayer changes things?\

Now as a molinist you could argue that .....""well God knew that prayer was coming and had already designed the answer before the prayer was
offered.........thats true,........and a molinist could say that.........."God also knew you were going to pray that exact prayer".......and that is a fact...
BUT, its not God that caused you to pray.
So, right in there, is that little bit of wiggle room that allows free will to coexist within the boundaries of providence and omnipotence. .

God is running the show, yes.
God is directing the script, yes.
However, the part we decide to play is >our choice<, EVEN THO, he knows our act from the beginning to the end.




K

The word fornication is translated as sexual immorality - isn't this the real reason some Christians are opposed to legalizing gay marriage?

Aspen......This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is not true, and i'd appreciate it if you didnt lie.
There is no greek text that translates "fornication" as anything but the single act of sexually joining your body to the body of someone you are not married to.
Now its possible that Jerome's Vulgate or the Sinaiticus or Vaticanus or some other partly twisted man altered manuscript has mistranslated the idea of the word "fornication".
I'll give you that.


The same reason they were opposed so strongly to having homosexuality removed from the DSM - that it will normalize the behavior in our culture and therefore, no longer be considered to be in the category of fornication or sexual immorality?

Sodomy between 2 males, will never be "normalized" in a society or church that God controls.
However, in a society that you would control Aspen, we see that gay sex acts are to be "normalized"..
As i thought.


Condemning a sin that you have no idea what it is like to be tempted by is too good to lose, right? Common - admit it.

So why dont you tell us what its like then, as you are the one who is suggesting that WE are the ones who cant understand the "feelings" of being temped to indulge in gay sex.
I sense the closet doors are bursting open for you the more you speak, Aspen.
As i suspected.


Look, this may offend some of you that are not already offended, but unless you have been tempted by homosexuality or a long term relationship with someone who tried to suppress one of the most basic needs we have just so God would not reject them - you have no idea what you are talking about.


You sound very very passionate as you defend the temptation of "long term homosexual relations", why do you tell us what its like so that we can relate to your perspective.


In a fallen world, perfection may not happen until sanctification is completed.

Are you like the speech write for Nambla?
Honestly, Aspen.... the more i listen to your continuing defense of homosexual sex in loo of the Bible perspective, the more queer your theology seems to me.



K

 

[aspen]

Aspen,.

We choose God when we receive Christ.
There is your choice.
WE do it.

The offer of salvation is to "all that would come"....."for God so loved the World that WHOSOEVER".



K

So your conclusion is that I must be a liar? a closeted homosexual? a pedophile?

Are all Bible translations that use the tern 'sexual immorality' instead of 'fornication', written by liars? Are all people who hold compassion towards chronic sinners, secretly engaged in the same sin? Since when does believing that our sanctification can only be completed after death make me a pedophile?

And you call yourself a minister? If it is true, I will be praying that God saves your congregation or future congregation from your poison - believe it. You've got some serious problems, man.

Who would anyone be foolish enough to talk about personal issues with you in private, let alone, broadcasting it on the web? Why would a good person ask another to do such a foolish thing? Seriously?! Considering a person with your level of empathy; I would not tell you about my hangnail, let alone discuss a complex personal issue with you.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kidron,

There is no greek text that translates "fornication" as anything but the single act of sexually joining your body to the body of someone you are not married to.
Now its possible that Jerome's Vulgate or the Sinaiticus or Vaticanus or some other partly twisted man altered manuscript has mistranslated the idea of the word "fornication".
I'll give you that.

It may have been wiser to check your facts. While your definition of fornication covers the behaviour you named, in NT Greek it covers every other sexual perversion as well. James 3:17

fornication
New Testament Greek Definition:
4202 porneia {por-ni'-ah}
from 4203; TDNT - 6:579,918; n f
AV - fornication 26; 26
1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse
with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the
sacrifices offered to idols




Blessings, brother.

 

[Kidron]

So your conclusion is that I must be a liar? a closeted homosexual? a pedophile?

I think you twist the rules to support your opinion, and then when someone exposes your words, you then attack the person or whine.
So, what you should do is realize that if you get around real Christians on a Christian forum, and ither by innuendo or by stated support argue for the rights of homosexual lifestyle, then you should expect to encounter some thorough resistance.
If you didnt, then there is a problem with the Christians on the forum.
And ive not said you are a pedophile or a homosexual.
Ive only concluded, based on your defense of the gay lifestyle that you are a very confused Christian/Catholic/Molinist.


Are all Bible translations that use the tern 'sexual immorality' instead of 'fornication', written by liars?

A better question to ask is...........are there sub-par or really bad "new versions".
And the answer to that is , absolutely
Apparently you have them all.


Are all people who hold compassion towards chronic sinners, secretly engaged in the same sin?

Your posts go a bit farther then supporting the sinner (homosexual), as you very well know.


Since when does believing that our sanctification can only be completed after death make me a pedophile?


The word "pedophile" has never been written in a post or a thread by ME, since i came here a few weeks ago...
so, that you keep implying that im suggesting that you are one of those, is not honest........but see, that how you respond.
You dont respond honestly.........You instead try to create a false defense so that the people here get the wrong impression.....a false impression.
No one has said you are a homosexual, or a pedophile.
I certainly have not.
I did say that your "theology sounds queer".
"Queer" in the since of very strange" with respect to what is accurate..
Look up the definition of the word.

And you call yourself a minister? If it is true, I will be praying that God saves your congregation or future congregation from your poison - believe it. You've got some serious problems, man.



You would do well to pray for yourself.
And, what is your opinion mean to me?
What are you, except a politically correct backwards Catholic.
You are typical, classic.
You dont agree with the bible, and your opinion is your God.
"Catholic".
So, you go ahead and pray, as i need the prayer and you need the practice.
Just make certain that you pray to the Son and not to the mother.
Can i count on you?


Who would anyone be foolish enough to talk about personal issues with you in private, let alone, broadcasting it on the web? Why would a good person ask another to do such a foolish thing? Seriously?! Considering a person with your level of empathy; I would not tell you about my hangnail, let alone discuss a complex personal issue with you.

GET REAL.
Have you noticed me talking about anyone's personal issue on this thread?
So, there you have made yet another false accusation..
You do this constantly when you respond to me.
Cant you just be honest?
And, try to realize that what you and i are discussing is your theology., not mine.
You wont find me on a Christian forum supporting the sexual feelings of a homosexual
I wont support a hetero's sexual feelings towards fornication.
I dont support sin, but i do support a person's right to sin, tho i would never encourage them or suggest its just their "nature" and we should hold their hand and comfort them
while they are doing it.
There is a distinction.
I hope you can see it. :)

So, Aspen, let me state this so that the others here wont be mislead by your continued attempts at deceit.
Ive never said you are a homosexual or a pedophile.
What i have done is respond to the implications you are posting on the forum regarding your opinions and theologically based comments.
Ive only spoken to your stated comments and your perspective regarding the topic of homosexuality..
Ive been careful to post your quotes, instead of just mentioning them or bending them, as you do mine.

Aspen, I dont know what you do in your personal life, and its not any of my business.
But, i will ask you this.....How long have you been married?




K

Hi Kidron,



It may have been wiser to check your facts. While your definition of fornication covers the behaviour you named, in NT Greek it covers every other sexual perversion as well. James 3:17

fornication
New Testament Greek Definition:
4202 porneia {por-ni'-ah}
from 4203; TDNT - 6:579,918; n f
AV - fornication 26; 26
1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse
with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the
sacrifices offered to idols
Blessings, brother.

Sorry, cant agree.

To begin with, if you just reach and grab a "greek text" definition, it could be that your greek text is
not even accurate.
Depends on the greek text, as there are at least 30.
And there is no ORIGINAL Greek Text, so, dont even try that little bit of nonsense.
So, maybe you need to check your facts before you thrust.????

And second. , even if we use the "text" you have supplied.,
And owing to the understanding that the 1st definition supplied is ALWAYS the MAIN and Central idea.
(check your facts, and see if this is correct .......)
Notice that the first definition of the word according to your supplied "text" is illicit sexual intercourse =....(the joining of the bodies)

Notice also, that the list of sexual sins your text provides, is at least 90% involved with the illicit sex act of fornicating intercourse.
The sex act is fornication, tho there are types of fornication.
Homosexual Sodomy for example.......man joins man
Beastality....dog joins human
Its all "intercourse" based fornication.
Only the players have changed.



be blessed,



K

 

[aspen]

Well you know Aspen, a molinist and a Calvanist are a pretty good fit.

Molinism is a Catholic interpretation - how is it close to Calvinism?

Just a slight variation on semantics when considering free will and foreknowledge and providence.

Reform theology vs. Catholic? How is that close?

Dont you agree that prayer changes things?

I agree with CS Lewis - prayer changes us - it conforms us to God's Will.

However, in a society that you would control Aspen, we see that gay sex acts are to be "normalized"..

So you believe God is not in control?? I believe God is all powerful - and I believe He allows sinners to sin. Who are we to legislate against God?

So why dont you tell us what its like then, as you are the one who is suggesting that WE are the ones who cant understand the "feelings" of being temped to indulge in gay sex.
I sense the closet doors are bursting open for you the more you speak, Aspen.
As i suspected.

Yep - you are right, someone is lying! That little comment suggests that I am a closeted homosexual.

Are you like the speech write[r] for Nambla?

And here is the comment that suggests that I am a pedophile.

So once again - who is attacking whom?

And I love the James White approach you are taking - attack as hard as you can; deny it; claim that the person you are attacking is just whining.....

Pointing out behavior is not whining - sorry.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,
After this can you duck out of the debate please, I was following a very in depth, and good debate on faith between other posters

The word fornication is translated as sexual immorality - isn't this the real reason some Christians are opposed to legalizing gay marriage?

One of the many reasons, also that God created woman to be in union with man and that men who abandon natural relations and commit indecent acts with men are in wicked error.

Look, this may offend some of you that are not already offended, but unless you have been tempted by homosexuality or a long term relationship with someone who tried to suppress one of the most basic needs we have just so God would not reject them - you have no idea what you are talking about.

Complete gay rubbish. The Bible says nothing of the sort, anyone could say that about what tempted them most. Millions in the world are concerned about where their next meal is coming from, not their next bonk. Not everyone feels the most basic need is sex, many are celibate. I would suggest wealth and possessions are harder to resist than sex.
　
There is no such thing in God's word as a gay or homosexual person. Your philosophy favours the feelings of people at the expense of God's word. Despite having adulterous temptations, I was not born an adulterer anymore than I was born a liar, despite having been tempted to lie at times. The person who has homosexual temptations no doubt has temptations to lie, steal, slander, and give false testimony like the rest of us, the idea that someone is a homosexual person is the deception that somehow such a desire/temptation should be treated as normal.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi brightmorningstar,

I don't want to make too big a deal of this, but you appear to be failing to understand that many with homosexual weaknesses are survivors of childhood abuse. They are already broken in the area of personal integrity, in the sense that penetrative violations rob a child of its physical integrity before it has had time to value and consciously preserve its integrity as a God-given benefit to be retained for the sole purpose of bestowing its honours only upon one other person with consent, in adulthood. By not appreciating how this brokenness invites unclean spirits to overwhelm the person, (through spiritual ties with abusers, for instance), you are making it sound far easier than it may be, for such a person to resist the powers by which they may have been overwhelmed. There are, of course, other routes to becoming a walkover for a predator.

In no way am I suggesting that God cannot heal and deliver. He can save from the uttermost to the uttermost. But for an unclean spirit to subdue a man or woman's instinctual gender, shows how strong those spirits are. They are stronger than the person. The person needs outside help - I mean, someone else to pray for them - as well as themselves to focus their intention against the invaders - with the help of the Holy Spirit. A person who is already weakened emotionally and physically by traumatic events in childhood, does not necessarily have the emotional capacity for this battle, as it is sometimes, an all-consuming, every minute effort to ignore the probings of such spiritual forces. At the same time, God's grace is as much to lift them out of these torments, Mark 10:14 as it is to deliver any another believer from any other torment. So, you may be talking about years of their waiting on God, abstaining from sexual activity, for them to be at peace in their own skin, and heterosexually orientated.


I also want to get back to the conversation about faith. I owe Kidron a response and am not sure when it will be ready.

 

[aspen]

Aspen2,
After this can you duck out of the debate please, I was following a very in depth, and good debate on faith between other posters
One of the many reasons, also that God created woman to be in union with man and that men who abandon natural relations and commit indecent acts with men are in wicked error.
Complete gay rubbish. The Bible says nothing of the sort, anyone could say that about what tempted them most. Millions in the world are concerned about where their next meal is coming from, not their next bonk. Not everyone feels the most basic need is sex, many are celibate. I would suggest wealth and possessions are harder to resist than sex.
　
There is no such thing in God's word as a gay or homosexual person. Your philosophy favours the feelings of people at the expense of God's word. Despite having adulterous temptations, I was not born an adulterer anymore than I was born a liar, despite having been tempted to lie at times. The person who has homosexual temptations no doubt has temptations to lie, steal, slander, and give false testimony like the rest of us, the idea that someone is a homosexual person is the deception that somehow such a desire/temptation should be treated as normal.

Not worth commenting on.

Hi brightmorningstar,

I don't want to make too big a deal of this, but you appear to be failing to understand that many with homosexual weaknesses are survivors of childhood abuse. They are already broken in the area of personal integrity, in the sense that penetrative violations rob a child of its physical integrity before it has had time to value and consciously preserve its integrity as a God-given benefit to be retained for the sole purpose of bestowing its honours only upon one other person with consent, in adulthood. By not appreciating how this brokenness invites unclean spirits to overwhelm the person, (through spiritual ties with abusers, for instance), you are making it sound far easier than it may be, for such a person to resist the powers by which they may have been overwhelmed. There are, of course, other routes to becoming a walkover for a predator.

In no way am I suggesting that God cannot heal and deliver. He can save from the uttermost to the uttermost. But for an unclean spirit to subdue a man or woman's instinctual gender, shows how strong those spirits are. They are stronger than the person. The person needs outside help - I mean, someone else to pray for them - as well as themselves to focus their intention against the invaders - with the help of the Holy Spirit. A person who is already weakened emotionally and physically by traumatic events in childhood, does not necessarily have the emotional capacity for this battle, as it is sometimes, an all-consuming, every minute effort to ignore the probings of such spiritual forces. At the same time, God's grace is as much to lift them out of these torments, Mark 10:14 as it is to deliver any another believer from any other torment. So, you may be talking about years of their waiting on God, abstaining from sexual activity, for them to be at peace in their own skin, and heterosexually orientated.


I also want to get back to the conversation about faith. I owe Kidron a response and am not sure when it will be ready.

I agree.

I would also like to get back to a conversation on faith. I believe I started out discussing this topic, but got derailed.

 

[Foreigner]

I don't want to make too big a deal of this, but you appear to be failing to understand that many with homosexual weaknesses are survivors of childhood abuse. They are already broken in the area of personal integrity, in the sense that penetrative violations rob a child of its physical integrity before it has had time to....

-- As far as homosexuality goes, there is only one specific thing that can be said: If you are indeed a homosexual, something somewhere went wrong.
That seems rather strong, but whether you feel they were born that way due to "original sin" or because they were abused when they were young, something somewhere had gone wrong first.

I have a nephew who states he knew he was attracted to boys as early as late elementary school. He himself states he was never abused, didn't suffer from low self-esteem, and that there were no external influences he is aware of that "caused" him to be gay.

I also know people who are homosexuals who were sexually molested or raped when they were young children, sometimes by a family member, a neightbor, or even a total stranger. I do not know if that "helped cause" them to be homosexual later in life, but it is difficult to believe it didn't have SOME impact. Especially when many who are molested tend to end up being the molester when they get older.

One thing I feel is worth mentioning is this:
Many of the homosexuals I have spoken with state that one of the reasons they "knew" they were homosexuals is because of the fact they were welcomed with open non-judgmental arms within the gay and lesbian community. I have heard more than once that "they accepted me for who I was, baggage and all, without judging me or making me feel that I have to explain who I am or why I feel this way."

I think in many cases it is a matter of the person feeling so hurt or "damaged" and not knowing where to turn, but then finding welcoming, loving open arms and in many cases feeling part of a community for the very first time. They then say, "I feel so loved and welcomed for who I am. I MUST belong to this community."

 

[aspen]

I totally agree.

It is too bad homosexuals have to look outside the church to feel unconditional love.