Reconciling Romans 4:2 with James 2:24

[Eternally Grateful]

Please actually carefully read each of the verses I put forth to you that refutes your false belief and explain them instead of repeating blindingly the slop that theologians of our day have fed you. For if your belief is biblical, you should have no trouble defending your belief with Scripture. But I just don’t see you doing that.

Please reread them yourself.

Your trying to equate christian growth (sanctification) as a requirment to in the end be saved.

God has set the requirment to be saved by your own works. That requirment is perfection. You have failed to reach that mark. And its to late to even try. And even if you did try to be perfect from now until you die. You will still fail

Remember, James said if we keep the whole law yet STUMBLE (to stumble means to trip, we do nt trip purposefully) in just one small are. We are guilty of all

You can;t meet the requirment you are setting yourself up to meet.

No one can.

Like @mailmandan sai, you are trying to teach type 2 works salvation. Thats a false gospel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please reread them yourself.

Sorry, I know what they say. I posted them because they refute your false belief that justifies sin and evil. Seeing you are not dealing with explaining these verses, it appears that you are just cherry picking the Bible. For if you truly believed these verses at face value, you would have explained at least one or two of them by now.

Your trying to equate christian growth (sanctification) as a requirment to in the end be saved.

No. God Word’s does. If you just read and believed the whole counsel of God’s Word at face value, you would know that.

Romans 8:13 says “For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, “God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”

God has set the requirment to be saved by your own works. That requirment is perfection.

Chapter and verse.

You have failed to reach that mark. And its to late to even try. And even if you did try to be perfect from now until you die. You will still fail

Right, and you don’t know what the Bible says.
Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts.
1 Peter 4:1-2 says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”
2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Remember, James said if we keep the whole law yet STUMBLE (to stumble means to trip, we do nt trip purposefully) in just one small are. We are guilty of all

First, James was not making a case that you cannot keep God’s laws, but that you should keep them. Second, James was referring to stumbling in one point regards to the keeping of the whole law being the royal law of love (Compare James 2:10 with James 2:8). What they offended in one point was the royal law of love. For they were giving favor to the rich brethren and they neglected the poor brethren. They were showing respect of persons. James was not describing a universal truth on all of God’s laws because 1 John 5:16 says there is a sin not unto death. Also, Jesus Himself says in Matthew 5:22 in the AMP Translation that there are two related sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts, and yet there is a related sin that leads to hellfire in the afterlife. So not all sin is the same. So even if James was referring to offending in one point and this would be the breaking of all of God’s laws, this would only be in regards to death sins and not non-death sins (See again 1 John 5:16). So what should we do if we break God’s laws? We confess of our sins to be forgiven of them. We don’t just give into the defeat of sin.

Plus, James says be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving your own selves (James 1:21).
James says blessed is the man that endures temptation, for when he is tried, he will receive the crown of life (James 1:12).
So James is not for your position of disobedience or for your inability to keep God’s laws.

You can;t meet the requirment you are setting yourself up to meet. No one can.

Your words do not sound like the words of the Bible.
He that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).

Like @mailmandan sai, you are trying to teach type 2 works salvation.

And that’s his own invented term that does not exist in the Bible. It’s a false term because I actually believe we are saved by both God’s grace and Sanctification and not works alone (Which is implied by the false term). Then again Jesus said, “Blessed are ye, when men…shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.” (Matthew 5:11).

Thats a false gospel.

The gospel primarily is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

 

[mailmandan]

You mean boasting and not boating.

LOL! Typeo. Fixed it.

Again, we have been over this before. There is no boasting in oneself but there is only boasting in God if one believes Scripture in that God does the good work through the believer (John 15:5) (Philippians 2:13).

So the believer passively sits back while God does good works through the believer? That's how you get around boasting? Roman Catholics, Campbellites and other works-salvationists use that same argument, but that's not how it works. Believers are not passive in accomplishing good works and if we are saved by good works (even if it's only in part) then there is still room for boasting and works-salvationists are all about 'self promotion' and taking credit for receiving salvation. In regards to John 15:5, to abide in Christ is to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only super saints do.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

It would be impossible to abide in Christ and never bear any fruit at all. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

In regards to Philippians 2:13, God works in us, yet we do not sit passively by while He does all the work and we do absolutely nothing. In verse 12 we see that we are to "work out" our salvation and not work for our salvation, as works-salvationists teach. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. So ongoing sanctification is not about "type 2 works salvation."

This is your carnal thinking and wording that does not align with Scripture.

It's actually carnal thinking that leads to trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

In fact, I would rather be falsely accused in believing in Works Salvation (When in reality I believe that Christians are saved by both God’s grace, and Sanctification) than to believe what you believe.

A distinction without a difference and I believe that we are saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9) and you believe we are saved by grace through faith AND WORKS. Big difference!

You believe in something far worse than Works Salvation, and that is a sin and still be saved type of belief.

Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL. What could be worse than no salvation at all? Here comes your favorite straw man argument. So what you are saying is that from the time one becomes born of God if they ever from that point on commit just one sin they lose their salvation? No room for stumbling at all or growth? It's just flawless or lawless? Was the apostle Peter sinless when he denied Christ 3 times and fell away? (John 18:25-27; Matthew 26:31-35) What about when he was in fear of the Jews and withdrew himself away from the Gentiles, played the part of a hypocrite and was not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel in Galatians 2:11-15? Believers have their weak moments and sin at times. Regardless of whatever self righteous delusion you may be under, we are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time. (1 John 1:8-10)

Jude 1:4 warns against turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Which is what your doctrine allows for).

No it doesn't and your continued straw man argument is getting really old! Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

No works? Not a problem? You are saved by faith alone.

We are saved through faith in Christ alone apart from the merit of works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet genuine faith does not remain alone from the presence of works. (James 2:14-24) Let's see if you can wrap your mind around that.

Oh wait, but you need to have works to show a genuine saving faith and so it is not by faith alone and so your false belief of faith alone (is not really faith alone) and it even contradicts itself (And you are simply unable to see it).

It's not that you must produce works in order to become saved but that you will produce works if you truly are saved. We show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it. Saved through faith, not works is saved through faith in Christ alone. No contradiction. You are just unable to see it and there is a reason for that. You make the same argument that Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists make in regards to faith alone, which is very telling.

Sin in your life? No need to worry.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

You falsely believe you are a slave to sin in this life according to 1 John 1:8.

False. Unbelievers are slaves to sin. Believers are slaves to righteousness. Romans 6:18 - And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Yet, Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts.

Which means it's impossible for believers to ever sin again? (1 John 1:8-10; 2:1) Your surface readings of scripture continue to get you into self righteous trouble.

2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Yet even more Scripture verses you don’t believe.

I believe those scriptures. I just don't believe your surface readings that result in 'sinless perfection' and self righteousness. Cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirt perfecting holiness in the fear of God is what believers are to strive for. It's surface readings of scripture such as this which cause you to be confident in your own righteousness and look down on others, just like the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. (Luke 18:9-14)

Yes. You are ignoring that the word “justified” is salvific in James 2:24.

This equates to salvation (being accounted as righteous) by works which is a false interpretation of James 2:24 and is in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. You ignore that. I ignore nothing. If "faith only" per James 2:24 was talking about genuine saving faith in Christ, then you would have a point, yet in context, we see that James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) so your point is invalid. You misinterpret James 2:24 just as Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists misinterpret James 2:24 which is very telling. You need to wake up!

You interpret the word “justified” differently when you approach the word “works” in James 2:24 (versus when you see the word “justified” in relation to faith like in Romans 5:1 - you then change your tune and see it as salvific). Also, if you believe James is saying there is no works, they are not saved by faith initially then you are saying works are required for salvation because you are basically saying you believe no works means a person did not have an initial saving faith to begin with. So works are required. If works do not justify as faith justifies then you don’t need any good works at all to be saved.

I already explained this to you numerous times, but the truth is just not sinking in and there is a reason for that. The natural man just cannot understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

This again is your confusion. The same word “justified” is used for both faith and works in James 2:24.

No confusion on my part. "Faith only" or "faith alone" in James 2:24 is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) so your argument is moot about being justified/accounted as righteous/saved by works and Romans 4:2-6 blows your argument right out of the water!

If James is not referring to how the word “justified” is not salvific then why does he relate that same word to faith (i.e. faith alone)? Again, I ask you: Is there a kind of faith that relates to justification that does not save? That is how you must interpret this. But of course you are ignoring that the same word “justified” is used for both faith and works in James 2:24.

You just don't get it. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

You are using a religious dictionary whereby they are not unbiased to their own theology or beliefs of what they think the Bible should say. But again this does not help you in James 2:24 because if we are to take this interpretation in James 2:24, it would mean that justification by faith is not salvific in Romans 5:1 because James 2:24 uses the same word “justified” for both faith and works in the same verse.

So you reject the multiple meanings of the word "justified" from Greek dictionaries?

Strong's #1344: dikaioo (pronounced dik-ah-yo'-o)

from 1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:--free, justify(-ier), be righteous.


Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

dikaioō

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G1344/dikaioo.htm

Examples in scripture of justified meaning shown to be righteous:

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against being in a state of righteousness. (Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.)

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". According to your "broad brushed" definition of "justified" God would have been "accounted as righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So then you believe that a genuine saving faith can have no works later on the rest of their life, and still be saved?

I did not say that and neither did James. Genuine saving faith will result in producing works (although we are still saved through faith and not by works). All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.

Sorry, it’s not perfect harmony. It’s a contradiction.

It's perfect harmony and you see a contradiction because apparently you don't understand that James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine saving faith in James 2:14 which sets the stage for James 2:24.

You are backhandedly implying that a saving faith that does not produce works shows that such a person was not saved to begin with (Which means works are required as a part of the salvation equation).

Good grief! It's like you are not hearing a word I say. Works are not part of the salvation equation of saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Yet you say faith AND WORKS.

If you wanted to be consistent with your theology here, you would say that no works of any kind need to be present later in a believer’s life and yet they are still saved by a belief alone in Jesus. This would truly be salvation without works.

Romans 4:2-6 and Ephesians 2:8,9 continues to go right over your head as you continue to get out your shoe horn and try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. God imputes righteousness APART FROM WORKS, but you say with works. Man is saved through faith apart from the merit of works, (Romans 4:2-6) yet genuine saving faith in Christ does not remain apart from the presence of works. (James 2:14-24) I'm not sure how I can make that any clearer.

Yes, and I believe Romans 4:2-3 just fine. It is talking about the Initial Act of salvation or the imputation of Christ.

So Christ only "initially" saves us then we do the rest? You obviously don't believe Romans 4:2-3. You believe what works-salvationists teach, which once again is very telling and disturbing.

You fail to understand there is a secondary imputation of Christ’s sacrifice.

Secondary imputation? This is "type 2 works salvation" and I have heard a similar argument from Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists. You are not in good company!

You can find it in 1 John 1:7 but I am sure you will deny it like you do the word “justified” relating to both faith and works in James 2:24.

More surface reading on your part that further leads to "type 2 works salvation." What a mess!

 

[farouk]

LOL! Type O. Fixed it.

So the believer passively sits back while God does good works through the believer? That's how you get around boasting? Roman Catholics, Campbellites and other works-salvationists use that same argument, but that's not how it works. Believers are not passive in accomplishing good works and if we are saved by good works (even if it's only in part) then there is still room for boasting and works-salvationists are all about 'self promotion' and taking credit for receiving salvation. In regards to John 15:5, to abide in Christ is to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only super saints do.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

It would be impossible to abide in Christ and never bear any fruit at all. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

In regards to Philippians 2:13, God works in us, yet we do not sit passively by while He does all the work and we do absolutely nothing. In verse 12 we see that we are to "work out" our salvation and not work for our salvation, as works-salvationists teach. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. So ongoing sanctification is not about "type 2 works salvation."

It's actually carnal thinking that leads to trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

A distinction without a difference and I believe that we are saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9) and you believe we are saved by grace through faith AND WORKS. Big difference!

Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL. What could be worse than no salvation at all? Here comes your favorite straw man argument. So what you are saying is that from the time one becomes born of God if they ever from that point on commit just one sin they lose their salvation? No room for stumbling at all or growth? It's just flawless or lawless? Was the apostle Peter sinless when he denied Christ 3 times and fell away? (John 18:25-27; Matthew 26:31-35) What about when he was in fear of the Jews and withdrew himself away from the Gentiles, played the part of a hypocrite and was not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel in Galatians 2:11-15? Believers have their weak moments and sin at times. Regardless of whatever self righteous delusion you may be under, we are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time. (1 John 1:8-10)

No it doesn't and your continued straw man argument is getting really old! Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

We are saved through faith in Christ alone apart from the merit of works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet genuine faith does not remain alone from the presence of works. (James 2:14-24) Let's see if you can wrap your mind around that.

It's not that you must produce works in order to become saved but that you will produce works if you truly are saved. We show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it. Saved through faith, not works is saved through faith in Christ alone. No contradiction. You are just unable to see it and there is a reason for that. You make the same argument that Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists make in regards to faith alone, which is very telling.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

False. Unbelievers are slaves to sin. Believers are slaves to righteousness. Romans 6:18 - And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Which means it's impossible for believers to ever sin again? (1 John 1:8-10; 2:1) Your surface readings of scripture continue to get you into self righteous trouble.

I believe those scriptures. I just don't believe your surface readings that result in 'sinless perfection' and self righteousness. Cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirt perfecting holiness in the fear of God is what believers are to strive for. It's surface readings of scripture such as this which cause you to be confident in your own righteousness and look down on others, just like the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. (Luke 18:9-14)

This equates to salvation (being accounted as righteous) by works which is a false interpretation of James 2:24 and is in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. You ignore that. I ignore nothing. If "faith only" per James 2:24 was talking about genuine saving faith in Christ, then you would have a point, yet in context, we see that James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) so your point is invalid. You misinterpret James 2:24 just as Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists misinterpret James 2:24 which is very telling. You need to wake up!

I already explained this to you numerous times, but the truth is just not sinking in and there is a reason for that. The natural man just cannot understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

CONTINUED...

Stated differently perhaps: Faith without works is not true faith in any case...

 

[mailmandan]

Stated differently perhaps: Faith without works is not true faith in any case...

If someone merely says/claims (key word - James 2:14) they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith. People who teach salvation by works (whether type 1 works salvation and/or type 2 works salvation) tend to read James 2:14 as if James is saying that a person actually has genuine faith but just has not yet produced works and until those works are produced, faith remains dead (as if those works are the source of life in faith) and they also error by teaching that we are saved by both faith and works.

A dead faith cannot produce works just like a dead tree cannot produce fruit. It takes a living faith (and a living tree) to produce works (fruit) and faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit.

 

[farouk]

If someone merely says/claims (key word - James 2:14) they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith. People who teach salvation by works (whether type 1 works salvation and/or type 2 works salvation) tend to read James 2:14 as if James is saying that a person actually has genuine faith but just has not yet produced works and until those works are produced, faith remains dead (as if those works are the source of life in faith) and they also error by teaching that we are saved by both faith and works.

A dead faith cannot produce anything. It takes a living faith to produce works and faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit.

John 10, where the Lord Jesus says His sheep hear His voice and follow Him, is also relevant.....

 

[mailmandan]

Paul was implying that it was works alone because he brought up the problem of circumcision of the Jews many times (Romans 3:1) (Galatians 2:3) (Galatians 5:2) which related to the Jerusalem council event whereby the council told us about how Gentile Christians were being deceived by a certain sect of Jews who wanted them to be circumcised to be saved and to keep the law of Moses (the 613) (i.e. the Old Law). For if a person thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved, they would be making Works ALONE the entrance gate and basis of their salvation (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). This is what plays into what Paul is talking about in Romans 4, but you are simply unable to see it. For why would Paul bring up circumcision in Romans 4:9-12?

In Romans 4:2-3: Paul is not referring to an ongoing state of what happens to a believer later but he is referring to how they first get saved.

In fact, here is biblical proof by even the apostle Paul that holy actions are required later as a part of the salvation process.

Titus 1:16 says:
“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

If works are not required for salvation then a person can never deny God by a being reprobate unto every good work.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says:
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

This play in harmony with what James says:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

Your doctrine is not in line with godliness because you believe 1 John 1:8 is an excuse to remain in sin on some level the rest of your life here on Earth. The context of 1 John 1:8 does not support the idea that we must sin again. In fact, John says to “sin not” in 1 John 2:1.

There are other verses by Paul that suggest you must be holy as a part of salvation, as well.

#1. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#2. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#3. If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22). Note: How does Jesus define how we are to love Him? Well, Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

#4. “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

#5. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

#6. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

#7. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#8. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

#9. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

#10. “…if we deny him, he also will deny us:” (2 Timothy 2:12).

That’s because there is no such thing as Type 2 Works Salvation. It’s an invention of your own mind to justify your sin and still be saved doctrine (that justifies sin and evil). Titus 2:11-12 is dealing with refuting your false belief here. God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness (Which is something your false belief does not do). You say you will always sin this side of Heaven. Yet, that is not what Titus 2:11-12 teaches. God’s grace teaches us to live godly and righteously in this present world, and not being a slave to sin as you falsely teach.

More of the same long winded nonsense, surface reading and contradictions which result in 'type 2 works salvation' and 'sinless perfection.'

 

[mailmandan]

Please reread them yourself.

Your trying to equate christian growth (sanctification) as a requirment to in the end be saved.

God has set the requirment to be saved by your own works. That requirment is perfection. You have failed to reach that mark. And its to late to even try. And even if you did try to be perfect from now until you die. You will still fail

Remember, James said if we keep the whole law yet STUMBLE (to stumble means to trip, we do nt trip purposefully) in just one small are. We are guilty of all

You can't meet the requirment you are setting yourself up to meet.

No one can.

Like @mailmandan sai, you are trying to teach type 2 works salvation. Thats a false gospel.

You nailed it! Well said.

 

[farouk]

You nailed it! Well said.

Justification and sanctification are indeed distinct in Scripture...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

LOL! Type O. Fixed it.

You made another typo in trying to fix your typo. You should have said “Typo” and not “Type O” which is a blood type. Typo (one word) is short for "typographical error", meaning a mistake made in typing (now keyboarding).

So the believer passively sits back while God does good works through the believer? That's how you get around boasting? Roman Catholics, Campbellites and other works-salvationists use that same argument, but that's not how it works.

While Works ALONE Salvationism in Catholicism and the Campbell Movement is wrong (Because it denies the 1st aspect of being saved by God’s grace and mercy), your belief is far worse because it turns God’s grace into a license for immorality (Because you take 1 John 1:8 as a license to sin - running contrary to Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, etcetera). You also don’t believe sin endangers the life of the believer because they are Once Saved Always Saved (Which runs contrary to the words of Jesus and His followers - Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8). You pretend to put on a cloak of holiness by saying a genuine believer will generally live more righteously over time, and or a true genuine saving faith will be evidenced by works (Which is a contradiction to your precious faith alone). But you cannot truly live holy because you believe you are enslaved to sin this side of Heaven. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). But you don’t believe that. Same word “justified” used for both faith and works in James 2:24, but you ignore that as usual. Even the demons believe and tremble. So James is saying if one has only a belief alone, their belief is like that of demons. That is why Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism (That is supposedly evidenced by works) is a sham, and a contradiction.

As for the Catholics or Campbellites claim to God doing the good work through them: Well, Jesus said you can know them by their fruit. You can see if whether or not they are boasting in their own goodness or not to see. The Catholic pope, Catholic priests, and Catholic cardinals definitely parade around in holy garments so as to appear holy before men. So they are obviously falsely boasting in their own holiness and love to be seen by men as holy. As for Campbellites: Do they all boast in how they keep God’s laws? Do they always give credit to God for their holy living every time instead of looking to get the attention? I don’t know enough about them to say. But if you eliminate grace and mercy in the 1st aspect of salvation, I imagine that is possible that some of them may boast in themselves or their work. It’s only natural because there is no true pure grace in their Soteriology. For there is never a point they can say they were saved purely by God’s grace (Which gives the credit to God).

Do I boast in my own good works in regards to the things of the Lord? No. I am avid believer in doing one’s good works in secret to be rewarded openly according to Matthew 6:4. I realize that all good that I do is from the Lord and proper praise and glory should be given to Him for any goodness from Him in my life. Praise should be given to God for our goodness and we should never praise ourselves. For I alone am nothing, and Christ is everything.

Believers are not passive in accomplishing good works and if we are saved by good works (even if it's only in part) then there is still room for boasting and works-salvationists are all about 'self promotion' and taking credit for receiving salvation.

Right, I believe this would be the case for some of those who deny the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God’s grace. But how would you know this in regards to Type 2 Works Salvationists? Not all of them follow together in designated church building, but they believe in gathering among Christian friends in each other’s home. Do you have a hidden camera watching them all? Do you have a microchip reading their thoughts that can record the boasting of all Type 2 Works Salvationists? Are they really all the same? I tell my wife that we should not pray in public over a meal because it would be an attempt to be seen by men. Why? Because that is what Jesus teaches (Matthew 6:6). So you falsely assume and label me as boasting in my work in the Lord when that is not something I set out to do. I like to think of myself as a secret agent for Jesus Christ. Yes, I tell others about Jesus openly, but any good I do… I always strive to do so in secret. So there goes your false accusation that we Type 2 Works Salvationists boast in our own good works we do for God to others.

Then again, Jesus said, “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.” (Matthew 5:11).

This is what is scary because you are an false accuser of the brethren and don’t even know it.

In regards to John 15:5, to abide in Christ is to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only super saints do.

I am not doubting that Peter stumbled at times. But did he do so daily or think he would do so all the time? Peter talked about false teachers who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (See 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14). You don’t believe in ceasing from sin in this life. So how do you twist Peter’s words to say something different? I can only imagine you must go to the original languages to undo what your Bible says plainly in the English. Anyone can make the Bible say anything they like these days because they think they are experts in the Hebrew and Greek when they don’t even really speak, write, or read these language fluently. They just trust their sin and still be saved scholars (Who twist the Scriptures to their own destruction). What puzzles me about your false belief is….

“How do you think doing evil is a part of God’s good kingdom?”

Do you not know that good guys do good, and bad guys do evil? Your belief is no more than a devil’s religion with a label sticker of the name of Jesus slapped on to it. But the Bible says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). Yet another verse you don’t believe in the Bible.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

And this is in context to loving the brethren, too.

1 John 4:7-8 says:
“Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.”

John also says in 1 John 2:3-4,
“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

How can you say you keep His commandments if you believe you must always admit that you are always in some kind of sin according to 1 John 1:8?

It would be impossible to abide in Christ and never bear any fruit at all. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

Doing good works alone is really not the focus. It’s the real Sanctification of the Holy Spirit that helps a believer to live a holy life (After a person is saved by God’s grace). For we know that certain believers who did wonderful works in Christ’s name were told to depart from Him by the Lord Himself because they also worked iniquity (sin), too (Matthew 7:22-23). This is in context to DOING What Jesus says (See: Matthew 7:26-27). You don’t really believe in doing what Jesus says but it’s all about a belief alone in Jesus while one must admit they are in sin or iniquity (Because of your false interoperation on 1 John 1:8).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Justification and sanctification are indeed distinct in Scripture...

I prefer the term “Salvation by God’s grace” (the 1st aspect of salvation) instead of Justification because the word “justification” is used for both works and faith in James 2:24.

But this is the problem with popular Theology. They label things in such a way that is not always accurate. The theological term Justification is from men, and it teaches that one is saved from the penalty of sin (Which is not true). You have to confess of sin to Jesus be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1). Many Christians today believe they can sin and still be saved with this term “Justification.” However, God’s grace wipes out your past sins only and you then must live holy. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). Then again, people like to play games with their own souls because of sin nowadays. This is why Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. Justifying sin is the wide gate path that most Christians are on these days (Unfortunately). We are living in the last days where things are evil and dark.

Theologians are even lying to you by saying that Sanctification is saving you from the power of sin. They double speak and say that no believer is without sin because of 1 John 1:8. So then nobody is really being saved from the power of sin if that is the case. But 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches that God has chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. It’s not just a belief of the truth only. It’s the Sanctification of the Spirit, too. Read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 several times. It is saying that Sanctification of the Spirit is a part of salvation (In the sense that is saving your soul in the afterlife). Don’t believe me? Read the context. Don’t believe me? Read Romans 8:13, too.

 

[mailmandan]

You made another typo in trying to fix your typo. You should have said “Typo” and not “Type O” which is a blood type. Typo (one word) is short for "typographical error", meaning a mistake made in typing (now keyboarding).

Fixed it again. That's how it came up when I typed it out. Thanks for catching it. We both know that it stands for "typographical error" and we both know that's what I meant.

While Works ALONE Salvationism in Catholicism and the Campbell Movement is wrong (Because it denies the 1st aspect of being saved by God’s grace and mercy), your belief is far worse because it turns God’s grace into a license for immorality (Because you take 1 John 1:8 as a license to sin - running contrary to Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, etcetera). You also don’t believe sin endangers the life of the believer because they are Once Saved Always Saved (Which runs contrary to the words of Jesus and His followers - Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8). You pretend to put on a cloak of holiness by saying a genuine believer will generally live more righteously over time, and or a true genuine saving faith will be evidenced by works (Which is a contradiction to your precious faith alone). But you cannot truly live holy because you believe you are enslaved to sin this side of Heaven. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). But you don’t believe that. Same word “justified” used for both faith and works in James 2:24, but you ignore that as usual. Even the demons believe and tremble. So James is saying if one has only a belief alone, their belief is like that of demons. That is why Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism (That is supposedly evidenced by works) is a sham, and a contradiction.

As for the Catholics or Campbellites claim to God doing the good work through them: Well, Jesus said you can know them by their fruit. You can see if whether or not they are boasting in their own goodness or not to see. The Catholic pope, Catholic priests, and Catholic cardinals definitely parade around in holy garments so as to appear holy before men. So they are obviously falsely boasting in their own holiness and love to be seen by men as holy. As for Campbellites: Do they all boast in how they keep God’s laws? Do they always give credit to God for their holy living every time instead of looking to get the attention? I don’t know enough about them to say. But if you eliminate grace and mercy in the 1st aspect of salvation, I imagine that is possible that some of them may boast in themselves or their work. It’s only natural because there is no true pure grace in their Soteriology. For there is never a point they can say they were saved purely by God’s grace (Which gives the credit to God).

Do I boast in my own good works in regards to the things of the Lord? No. I am avid believer in doing one’s good works in secret to be rewarded openly according to Matthew 6:4. I realize that all good that I do is from the Lord and proper praise and glory should be given to Him for any goodness from Him in my life. Praise should be given to God for our goodness and we should never praise ourselves. For I alone am nothing, and Christ is everything.

Right, I believe this would be the case for some of those who deny the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God’s grace. But how would you know this in regards to Type 2 Works Salvationists? Not all of them follow together in designated church building, but they believe in gathering among Christian friends in each other’s home. Do you have a hidden camera watching them all? Do you have a microchip reading their thoughts that can record the boasting of all Type 2 Works Salvationists? Are they really all the same? I tell my wife that we should not pray in public over a meal because it would be an attempt to be seen by men. Why? Because that is what Jesus teaches (Matthew 6:6). So you falsely assume and label me as boasting in my work in the Lord when that is not something I set out to do. I like to think of myself as a secret agent for Jesus Christ. Yes, I tell others about Jesus openly, but any good I do… I always strive to do so in secret. So there goes your false accusation that we Type 2 Works Salvationists boast in our own good works we do for God to others.

Then again, Jesus said, “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.” (Matthew 5:11).

This is what is scary because you are an false accuser of the brethren and don’t even know it.

I am not doubting that Peter stumbled at times. But did he do so daily or think he would do so all the time? Peter talked about false teachers who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (See 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14). You don’t believe in ceasing from sin in this life. So how do you twist Peter’s words to say something different? I can only imagine you must go to the original languages to undo what your Bible says plainly in the English. Anyone can make the Bible say anything they like these days because they think they are experts in the Hebrew and Greek when they don’t even really speak, write, or read these language fluently. They just trust their sin and still be saved scholars (Who twist the Scriptures to their own destruction). What I don’t about your false belief is….

“How do you think doing evil is a part of God’s good kingdom?” Do you not know that good guys do good, and bad guys do evil? Your belief is no more than a devil’s religion with a label sticker of the name of Jesus slapped on to it. But the Bible says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). Yet another verse you don’t believe in the Bible.

And this is in context to loving the brethren, too.

1 John 4:7-8 says:
“Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.”

John also says in 1 John 2:3-4,
“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

How can you say you keep His commandments if you believe you must always admit that you are always in some kind of sin according to 1 John 1:8?

Doing good works alone is really not the focus. It’s the real Sanctification of the Holy Spirit that helps a believer to live a holy life (After a person is saved by God’s grace). For we know that certain believers who did wonderful works in Christ’s name were told to depart from Him by the Lord Himself because they also worked iniquity (sin), too (Matthew 7:22-23). This is in context to DOING What Jesus says (See: Matthew 7:26-27). You don’t really believe in doing what Jesus says but it’s all about a belief alone in Jesus while one must admit they are in sin or iniquity (Because of your false interoperation on 1 John 1:8).

This is just more of the same long winded nonsense, straw man arguments and surface reading which results in 'type 2 works salvation' and 'sinless perfection.' You also continue to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture, which is a common error made by works-salvationists. I'm tired of your false accusations and I'm not buying your false belief system.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Fixed it again. That's how it came up when I typed it out. Thanks for catching it. We both know that it stands for "typographical error" and we both know that's what I meant.

This is just more of the same long winded nonsense, straw man arguments and surface reading which results in 'type 2 works salvation' and 'sinless perfection.' You also continue to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture, which is a common error made by works-salvationists. I'm tired of hearing your false accusations and also your false belief system.

You are just repeating more false nonsense that you have been fed and you are not listening. I don’t even believe in the Traditional Sinless Perfection that you falsely accuse me of. I don’t believe Sinless Perfection is a salvation issue. I believe Christians have to meet the bare minimum level requirements for living holy and they don’t have to be perfect (put away non-death sins) to be saved. Matthew 5:22 in the AMP Translation makes it clear that there are two related sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts, and there is one related sin that leads to hellfire. 1 John 5:16 says there is a sin not unto death.

 

[mailmandan]

You are just repeating more false nonsense that you have been fed and you are not listening...

Oh the irony.. You are impossible to reason with.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh the irony.. You are impossible to reason with.

I can say the same for you, but you see what you want to see to justify a sin and still be saved type belief. As per usual, you did not even recognize that I don’t believe in your traditional false Sinless Perfection accusation.

Sin has a way of clouding people’s judgment.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No confusion on my part. "Faith only" or "faith alone" in James 2:24 is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) so your argument is moot about being justified/accounted as righteous/saved by works and Romans 4:2-6 blows your argument right out of the water!

You just don't get it. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

So you reject the multiple meanings of the word "justified" from Greek dictionaries?

Strong's #1344: dikaioo (pronounced dik-ah-yo'-o)

from 1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:--free, justify(-ier), be righteous.


Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

dikaioō

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G1344/dikaioo.htm

Examples in scripture of justified meaning shown to be righteous:

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against being in a state of righteousness. (Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.)

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". According to your "broad brushed" definition of "justified" God would have been "accounted as righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

I did not say that and neither did James. Genuine saving faith will result in producing works (although we are still saved through faith and not by works). All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.

It's perfect harmony and you see a contradiction because apparently you don't understand that James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine saving faith in James 2:14 which sets the stage for James 2:24.

Good grief! It's like you are not hearing a word I say. Works are not part of the salvation equation of saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Yet you say faith AND WORKS.

Romans 4:2-6 and Ephesians 2:8,9 continues to go right over your head as you continue to get out your shoe horn and try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. God imputes righteousness APART FROM WORKS, but you say with works. Man is saved through faith apart from the merit of works, (Romans 4:2-6) yet genuine saving faith in Christ does not remain apart from the presence of works. (James 2:14-24) I'm not sure how I can make that any clearer.

So Christ only "initially" saves us then we do the rest? You obviously don't believe Romans 4:2-3. You believe what works-salvationists teach, which once again is very telling and disturbing.

Secondary imputation? This is "type 2 works salvation" and I have heard a similar argument from Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists. You are not in good company!

More surface reading on your part that further leads to "type 2 works salvation." What a mess!

Oh, and nowhere do I deny that the word justified can be used in a non-salvific sense like in Luke 7:29. This is because it is in context to men justifying God and not God justifying us. When God justifies us… it is salvific. Again, the same word “justified” is used for both faith and works in James 2:24. So if you say that the word “justified” in James 2:24 is non-salvific, you would be saying that there is a kind of faith we have in God whereby His justification towards us is non-salvific. So you are not being consistent with the use of that word in James 2:24.

 

[mailmandan]

I can say the same for you, but you see what you want to see to justify a sin and still be saved type belief. As per usual, you did not even recognize that I don’t believe in your traditional false Sinless Perfection accusation.

Sin has a way of clouding people’s judgment.

I never said I justify sin. That is slander. As per usual, you don't even realize what you are really teaching in your sugar coated double talk long winded rants. Self righteousness has a way of clouding people's judgment.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I never said I justify sin. That is slander. As per usual, you don't even realize what you are really teaching in your sugar coated double talk long winded rants. Self righteousness has a way of clouding people's judgment.

Nowhere did I say that is what you said (Which simply shows you are still not listening correctly). I am merely describing your false belief based upon your erroneous interpretation of 1 John 1:8 that justifies sin (Which runs contrary to Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 3:10, etcetera).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You nailed it! Well said.

No. He didn’t nail it because he ignored the points I brought up with Scripture that refutes his false belief in that he can sin and still be saved while under God’s grace.