mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Can't sin at all (sinless perfection) and still be saved while under God's grace. Got it. He did nail it after all and did not ignore your points.
Reconciling Romans 4:2 with James 2:24
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If He paid it all whereby you don’t have to worry about anything then you don’t even need to worry about violating the sin of unbelief in Jesus as the Savior. But this would be Universalism (Which is false). We disagree on faith. You see faith as a belief alone, I see faith as a two sided coin where it starts off as a belief alone (on one side), but then on the other side, faith progresses to obeying God. For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The Word of God is filled with instructions to obey and not disobey (as you falsely teach by your wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8). God’s Word commands us to be holy because He is holy. Yet, you really don’t believe that.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Unbelief brings condemnation (John 3:18) Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) You basically define faith as belief + acts of obedience/works which follow and are produced out of faith. So do Roman Catholics. 1 John 1:8 remains your Achilles heel and does not support your self righteous, false doctrine of 'sinless perfection.' (1 John 1:8-10)
If Romans 3, Romans 5, etc., are not about justification, I don't know what is.
I don't see in Scripture that I can be saved on a Monday, then lost on a Tuesday and then saved again (just maybe) on a Wednesday.
Instead by faith we may rely on the finished work of Christ (John 19.30; Hebrews chapters 9 and 10).
Instead by faith we may rely on the finished work of Christ (John 19.30; Hebrews chapters 9 and 10).
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
sadly, I doubt he will read with an open heart.No confusion on my part. "Faith only" or "faith alone" in James 2:24 is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) so your argument is moot about being justified/accounted as righteous/saved by works and Romans 4:2-6 blows your argument right out of the water!
You just don't get it. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
So you reject the multiple meanings of the word "justified" from Greek dictionaries?
Strong's #1344: dikaioo (pronounced dik-ah-yo'-o)
from 1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:--free, justify(-ier), be righteous.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
dikaioō
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G1344/dikaioo.htm
Examples in scripture of justified meaning shown to be righteous:
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against being in a state of righteousness. (Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.)
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". According to your "broad brushed" definition of "justified" God would have been "accounted as righteous."
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
I did not say that and neither did James. Genuine saving faith will result in producing works (although we are still saved through faith and not by works). All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.
It's perfect harmony and you see a contradiction because apparently you don't understand that James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine saving faith in James 2:14 which sets the stage for James 2:24.
Good grief!It's like you are not hearing a word I say. Works are not part of the salvation equation of saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Yet you say faith AND WORKS.
Romans 4:2-6 and Ephesians 2:8,9 continues to go right over your head as you continue to get out your shoe horn and try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. God imputes righteousness APART FROM WORKS, but you say with works. Man is saved through faith apart from the merit of works, (Romans 4:2-6) yet genuine saving faith in Christ does not remain apart from the presence of works. (James 2:14-24) I'm not sure how I can make that any clearer.
So Christ only "initially" saves us then we do the rest? You obviously don't believe Romans 4:2-3. You believe what works-salvationists teach, which once again is very telling and disturbing.
Secondary imputation? This is "type 2 works salvation" and I have heard a similar argument from Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists. You are not in good company!
More surface reading on your part that further leads to "type 2 works salvation." What a mess!
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
kinda like type - O interpretation, eh?
Wait! it's actually a word:"In engineering, interoperation is the setup of ad hoc components and methods to make two or more systems work together as a combined system with some partial functionality during a certain time, possibly requiring human supervision to perform necessary adjustments and corrections." Wikipedia
Now, IF we can just get "faith AND works" to somehow reconcile with
"GRACE Through faith," THEN we will all be Great engineers, Correct?
There's your answer. "But not before God". In the eyes of God justification is by grace through faith apart from any works. But in the eyes of men, it is your good works which glorify your Father which is in Heaven: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Mt 5:16)
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
And on that note , ITS LORD PRAISING TIME my peoples . Let all that has breath praise and thank the LORD .
Catholics believe in the Trinity, it does not invalidate that that teaching in the Bible. So even blind squirrel can find a nut. So guilt by association is not always true.
The Bible clearly teaches two aspects of salvation; The first being grace by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and the second is Sanctification by the Spirit and a belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2.13) (Also see Romans 8:13).
As for your false Sinless Perfection accusations: You are still up to same old false accusations. Any reader can see this for themselves.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Yep even a broke clock is right twice a day .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Just dont expect me to follow the broke clock cause its wrong all the other times .
Romans 4:2
“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”
I disagree with your interpretation.
Romans 4:2 is referring to:
“Works ALONE Salvationism”
(without God’s grace) because Paul is fighting against the heresy of “Circumcision Salvationism” that was spreading in the early church (mentioned at the Jerusalem council) (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1) (Acts of the Apostles 15:5) (Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul says in Galatians 5:2 that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. This is because there were Jews seeking to deceive Gentile Christians to be circumcised in order to be initially saved. See also Romans 3:1, Galatians 2:3, Romans 4:9-12. For if a person believed they had to be circumcised to be saved, they would be making the law or works the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation (i.e. Works ALONE Salvationism). This is why circumcision was brought up in the same chapter as Romans 4:2, and in the previous chapter. Paul is not saying one is not justified by works after one is saved by God’s grace. He is saying one is not justified by works ALONE in Romans 4:2. James is saying we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Same word “justified” is used for both faith and works in James 2:24. For even the demons believe and tremble.
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Right. I am not Catholic. In fact, I am strongly against Catholicism because they bow down to idols and pray to dead people (necromancy). This of course is the tip of the iceberg of their grave errors. But Protestantism also has its own errors, as well. They make salvation all about a belief alone in Jesus as the Savior or believing in the finished work of the cross and that’s it. No need to live holy for the Lord as a part of salvation. They believe you can sin and still be saved. Remember, Jesus says the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. Doesn’t sound too good.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
We must learn our bibles . For many decievers have abounding and masses more are as well .
Learn those bibles peoples . Learn that JESUS , learn all sound doctrine well . Be hearers and doers of all things our LORD did teach .
This generation aint gonna make it . This world , heck most churches are on a head on collision with the DAY OF THE LORD
and i tell us all many will wail on that day . WE must return to reading the bible for ourselves , be in prayer
be exhorting , be correcting any error in brethren and be pointing all to CHRIST , WHILE WE HAVE THE TIME TO DO SO .
I think for some people it’s not a matter of studying the Bible.
For them, it’s about…
#1. A justification of sin (or evil), and or:
#2. Fitting in with popular Christianity (feeling good with their Pastor and their church friends).
Therefore, one will twist the Scriptures to their own personal benefit instead of reading and believing the Bible plainly so as to please God in spirit and in truth. Maybe some cannot fathom to be less liked by many in following the Lord. For others, it could be that the idea of giving up the pleasure of sin is simply unimaginable.
But there is no excuse to twist 1 John 1:8 as a justification to sin.
Some folks just read the Bible with their moral compass turned off.
This should not be surprising because we are living in the last days.
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Romans 3 is talking about being saved by God’s grace in our Initial Salvation.
Romans 3 also is talking about how we are not saved by the Law of Moses and or Law Alone Salvationism (Without God’s grace).
Romans 5 starts off talking about being saved by God’s grace in our Initial Salvation, and then it switches into talking about the Provisional Atonement. Nothing is mentioned in these chapters about any kind of freedom from the penalty of sin whereby we don’t need to worry about sin no more. In Galatians 5:19-21, Paul lists various sins and says that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
kinda like type - O interpretation, eh?
"In engineering, interoperation is the setup of ad hoc components and methods to make two or more systems work together as a combined system with some partial functionality during a certain time, possibly requiring human supervision to perform necessary adjustments and corrections." Wikipedia
Now, IF we can just get "faith AND works" to somehow reconcile with
"GRACE Through faith," THEN we will all be Great engineers, Correct?
Faith is a two sided coin.
The first side starts off as a belief in Jesus as the Savior, and a belief in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
But then faith continues with the other side of the coin with us obeying the Lord in living a holy life in the Sanctification Process.
Faith is everything in your New Testament. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (the Bible).
You cannot say that the instructions from Jesus and His followers is not the faith. We take all of the words in the Bible by faith.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Just like amigo de christo said, - "Yep even a broke clock is right twice a day. Just don't expect me to follow the broke clock cause its wrong all the other times." He nailed it! When it comes to salvation by faith + works, guilt by association is true in your case.
The Bible clearly teaches two aspects of salvation; The first being grace by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and the second is Sanctification by the Spirit and a belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2.13) (Also see Romans 8:13). The sanctifying work in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is done by the Spirit. In regards to Romans 8:13, be sure to read Romans 8:8-11. Your two aspects of salvation doctrine equates to "initially" saved by grace through faith without works, BUT "ultimately" saved by works of the believer. That is "type 2 works salvation" any way you slice it. In Hebrews 10:10, we read - "..sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" and in Hebrews 10:14, we read - "perfected for all time those who are sanctified."
The moment that we have been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, we are sanctified/set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ.
1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus..
I explained to you multiple times that 1 John 1:8 is in the 'present tense' which rules out sinless perfection and you argue with me and falsely accuse me of "justifying sin." Then you tell EG that Scripture refutes his false belief that he can sin and still be saved while under God’s grace. So can't sin at all or else you won't be saved? Here are more statements from you below which imply sinless perfection:
One is not saved while one sins. That’s dark and twisted and evil beyond all imagining.
Many Christians today believe they can sin and still be saved with this term “Justification.” However, God’s grace wipes out your past sins only and you then must live holy.
Theologians are even lying to you by saying that Sanctification is saving you from the power of sin. They double speak and say that no believer is without sin because of 1 John 1:8. So then nobody is really being saved from the power of sin if that is the case.
Sure sounds like sinless perfection to me and you make statements like this all the time, falsely accusing others of justifying sin while exalting yourself as "holier than thou." I'm not the only one who picks up on this.
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