(Refuting) The (Original Sin) Doctrine!!

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DoveSpirit05

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I guess first off I should say that I don't believe that any part of a man is immortal, as I do not believe such is biblical. I believe that when you die you return to the dust. MAN was made of the dust and MAN returns to the dust. You are alive or you are dead. So babies don't need to be baptized to save them from some sort of punishment after they die. If they die they are dead, they cease to exist like all other humans do when they die.

Let me explain my understanding of a person's freedom to make choices verses a person's individual will as I see those as two separate things. People are given freedoms/rights to make choices, when they are DECIDING on that which they are going to choose, their decision is BASED ON FACTORS not based out of thin air. Such factors that determine an individuals own will include memory, personal experiences, knowledge or lack thereof, their character which is a product of both nature and nurture, individual past and present perceptions. Unless you have had control over every single aspect of who you are, including your own biological makeup, you do not have a "free" will, your will is dependent upon/ is a product of many factors that have been out of your control.

It may also help for you to know that my understanding of scripture is that God calls people unto Him according to His purpose and He has an order to His calling. God past and present hasn't reached out to every single person and they have chosen to have faith or not have faith. God's calling is irrevocable. He has been calling leaders, judges, future kings, who will rule with Christ. The first resurrection are of these, and the second are those who will be resurrected and judged accordingly where they are then called, brought to repentance, as a repentant heart is the work of God's influence in you. ONLY GOD is GOOD, man can do NOTHING of himself. Foolish ignorant men who think they are wise do not have a more powerful influence upon themselves or other foolish gullible humans over that of God's influence. God's influence is more powerful than any worldly influence, WHEN He has chosen to call you.


David was a prophet and He wrote songs of Truth, he wrote songs of praise to the LORD, and he wrote about the future of God's will and plan. David said it exactly right, "there is no one who does good". Jesus tells you, "ONLY GOD IS GOOD".

Take the given truth and apply it so you can understand David's perception correctly. Man can do no good on his own, on his own he is a natural creature who does not know good or evil by his nature, just like a serpent or dog does not know good or evil. Such is something man has to come to know, and God did separate us from the animals giving us that ability. Man can't do it on his own, he is ignorant and he has an imagination that allows him to imagine what the truth is, but the truth comes from God He reveals it unto man, He is the source. Likewise He is the source of all righteousness. God has mercy on us by giving us of the fruits of His Spirit, such as Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge, love, self-control, kindness, patience...etc.

that's a contradiction!! noah did good, job did good, david did good, Solomon did good, most of the kings in the south in book of kings did good 2 name a few, I think ur stuck in a rut and ur only way out is contort the scripture to mean "ONLY GOD IS GOOD" when where talking about the OT!!

i'm into quick argumentation!! straight 2 the point, uv gone on a rabbit trail there, I don't disagree wiv God having power over man and dat, and animals have free will too they just believe in survival of the fittest!!

as for our own will its within our choices!! we have choices within the choices dat God has given us, just because he has decided the amount of choices we have doesn't mean we don't have free will.

ohh and du actually know wat free will is? i'm not being patronising!!
 

DoveSpirit05

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Adam and Eve had immortal flesh, and then they received mortal flesh and thus with mortal flesh they could die. Jesus was raised with immortal flesh given to him for all eternity. Scripture tells you that Adam was made a living creature, he sinned and God brought forth mortality and Adam died. Jesus died also but his flesh did not see decay, his spirit/mind was quickened/made alive in a body that rose in power, in glory, made immortal for all eternity. According to the FLESH Christ sits on his father David's throne. Jesus was raised from the dead having received the promised Holy Spirit and the promises of the mercies of David.

Humans are created creatures, they are one type of flesh that God had made, fish and birds have their own kind of flesh. Each creature that God made functions according to how God designed them to function. Humans function according to the human mind/brain God designed. God set humans a part from all other creatures He had made, they were made to learn from God, to become creatures that exist in His image, exist according to His righteousness living in truth, love and peace. God made our minds/brains capable of having His Spirit dwell therein where we then function according to God's determined purpose that He had for us before He made the world.

God's promise is to be ALL in ALL. God had to make man weak so to make His powers known. If He didn't than we would think all good things came from within ourselves and we would believe ourselves to be gods, we would not know the truth to who we are and we would not know the truth of who God is and what He is the source of. God can't have us living a lie. As God set us a part giving us higher functioning brain with an imagination, it is that imagination that makes us individuals, it is a blessing but at first it is a curse. The imagination starts out ignorant of God and it shows man's foolishness verses God's wisdom. The imagination that is not led by God's Spirit that does not have faith just deceives itself and invents it's own way. The human imagination that is led by God's Spirit having faith in God is a most beautiful thing.

I agree wiv much of dat, and ill accept ur point about A&E having immortal flesh!! yes I believe God had 2 test his creation 2 see if they'd be loyal, ecc 3:10, deu 8:2-4 pslam 53:2-3,

ok so ur saying they were carnal before they sinned!! ok let me ask u dis, why wud God create something dat is emity with him? rom 8:7-8, pslam 5:5
 

DoveSpirit05

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Adam and Eve were made of the dust of the earth, they were made FLESH, FLESH and CARNAL are the SAME THING. The word in the NT for FLESH is SARX, 147 times it is translated as FLESH, 10 times unto Paul's letters it is rendered carnal.

Adam and Eve were flesh and therefore they had THE MIND OF FLESH, Paul's words apply to Adam and Eve.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

This should be obvious as Adam and Eve didn't obey, they didn't obey because being of a flesh/carnal mind they were not able of their own to be subject to the law of God.

Adam and Eve were made flesh/CARNAL to say that it wasn't until after they sinned that they had FLESH nature is WRONG. They were not GOD, they were created creatures OF FLESH who God gave the breath of life to.

Adam and Eve began with an immortal body of flesh with a flesh mind. That flesh MIND caused them to sin.
The punishment was to take that flesh mind and give it a weak body of flesh that had to serve itself now in order to live. Not only did God change man's flesh to be mortal/weak/able to die, He also placed the whole world under a curse, animals were made wild made devouring beasts, and God brought forth thorns, thistles, weeds, pestilence, drought, famine, flood, fire, all sorts of fears were introduced into the life of man.

worse yet why would God create something he hates!! pslam 5:5 pslam 11:5
 

Bible_Gazer

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When God created Adam and Eve, what kind of information did God put in their heart.
Was it a flesh minded or the mind of God ?
They did receive some kind of understanding to be able to function, that is to be able to think and communicate with God and Angels.
Surely not a complete knowledge or understanding of everything, just enough to get things started.
The flesh body is not a sin.
Its what the soul does that sin.
Carnally minded is from the soul.

Romans 8:8
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Is this the flesh as in meat & bones or the heart (the soul's mind) ?
 
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Jodi

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I agree wiv much of dat, and ill accept ur point about A&E having immortal flesh!! yes I believe God had 2 test his creation 2 see if they'd be loyal, ecc 3:10, deu 8:2-4 pslam 53:2-3,

ok so ur saying they were carnal before they sinned!! ok let me ask u dis, why wud God create something dat is emity with him? rom 8:7-8, pslam 5:5

I appreciate you reading my post and giving a good follow up question!

I think it's important to remember the LORD'S words where He said that He established the END from the beginning, and that the END that we are given is unto a New Beginning. We are also told that the LORD is a potter over the clay.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.


Such a verse relates to God molding us, it's not about our beginning but what we BECOME in the END which God had prepared for us before He made the world. Similar we are told that our God is a consuming fire, and we are the metal put in the fire and are by such refined.

Your question is like the one Paul speaks of in Romans 9,

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in O see, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

As my understanding is that Adam and Eve were flesh/carnal, their mind/brain likewise is of flesh. God gave MAN even before the fall DESIRES, Eve wanted to eat the fruit as she thought it would TASTE GOOD, she likewise hoped it would make her wise, she desired WISDOM. She indeed walked after the desires according to her nature.

What would man be if God didn't give him any desires or pleasures for when those desires are fulfilled? Life would be numb and meaningless I suppose.

God is all knowing, all powerful, and we are but a creation of His.

By our nature verses His we are opposites
, but yet in our very nature we desire that which He is.

He is wise full of wisdom and knowledge, we are ignorant but we desire wisdom and knowledge
. God is of power, glory and honor, we have a natural desire for those things as well. The natural desires God gave to our carnal minds just mentioned are that which He is! Man being ignorant he does not know that the SOURCE to obtain the natural DESIRES of his human mind/spirit can only come from God. If man had them to begin with however he wouldn't know the source and would live a lie thinking they were of himself, and there would be no truth and no honor to the source, our One True God.

Eve thought she could obtain her desire for wisdom by eating fruit, she reasoned in her ignorant mind and ate the fruit going her own way, which exposed her error, her foolishness and proved to her in at least that instance that her Creator was true. The bible teaches us that we need to learn from God, we need God to direct our ways, we need the fruits of His Spirit being given and dwelling in us.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Man's state of flesh is of an IGNORANT mind, without the mercy of God and His given wisdom and understanding, man can only imagine what the truth is through his own reasoning, all he is capable of doing not having the source of truth is produce superstitions and lies, foolishness not wisdom, as he seeks to fulfill his natural desires.

We need God in order to truly fulfill the carnal mind's desires that God gave us, the fact that our natural mind does not know it yet and was given the capability to imagine what the truth might be, is where the enmity lives, BUT it is only a temporary state because God's plan from the beginning was to mold the clay into His image and be ALL in ALL.

God didn't create us as His puppets, where would we be if we didn't have an imagination? How long would it take to teach man the SOURCE of all things that are good, if we had all things in us from the beginning? Earning glory and honor, working for it and having a sense of accomplishment knowing God has been your guide, is far better than just having it handed to you.

Adam and Eve did not have the fruits of God's Spirit, Jesus on the other hand was the only mortal to have received the Spirit not by measure. God had said He would elect one from among the people call him to righteousness and direct all his ways. Jesus said he was being TAUGHT by God, we are told that Jesus was perfected, that he learned obedience by that which he suffered. Psalms 8 tells you that God would be mindful of a man, visit him, make him lower than the angels for the suffering of death and then crown him with glory and honor. Jesus obtained that glory and honor through having been given the Spirit, through God directing all his ways, through him learning and suffering.
 

Jodi

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worse yet why would God create something he hates!! pslam 5:5 pslam 11:5

God did not create something that He hates. God created something KNOWING the END from the beginning, He created man knowing the power that His Spirit has over the clay, that He can make that clay into living in His own image.

God's purpose before He created the world was to be ALL IN ALL. One should be able to reach the conclusion that God's accomplishment to achieve such is a PROCESS,
it's not instantaneous, otherwise would God have us be puppets or allow the clay to see himself as a god and not know God from the clay.
 

Davy

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When God created Adam and Eve, what kind of information did God put in their heart.
Was it a flesh minded or the mind of God ?
They did receive some kind of understanding to be able to function, that is to be able to think and communicate with God and Angels.
Surely not a complete knowledge or understanding of everything, just enough to get things started.
The flesh body is not a sin.
Its what the soul does that sin.

The flesh body does represent sin. Apostle Paul made that plain (Romans 7), as did our Lord Jesus when He said that we must be 'born again' (meaning our spirit by The Spirit) in order to receive salvation. Salvation is of our flesh? No, because Apostle Paul covered that point too about the idea of the resurrection to a "spiritual body".

1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

The idea of a fleshy resurrection is from an old Jewish tradition, because they don't believe in existence of those born in the flesh as being able to exist without a flesh body. To believe the future resurrection is one of flesh goes directly against what Apostle Paul said in the above 1 Cor.15:50 verse, and in the rest of that Chapter.
 
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Jodi

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Paul does speak of 'spirit, soul and body' (1 Thess . 5.23).

YES and soul and spirit are often used denoting the same meaning speaking of both according to the mind of man.

From the beginning in Genesis, the bible tells me that soul means a living creature, living as God's breath is given unto it.

The soul that sins shall die we are told, or you could say the life lived as a sinner is a life that dies/ends/ceases/perishes. Your soul/your life how you live it is according to your spirit/mind. Your body animates your spirit/mind and displays how you live out your soul/life.

One could say his soul is dark, and it would mean the same thing as saying his life is dark.
One could say his soul is dark as his spirit is full of hatred. Thus you could say his soul/life is of hatred.
One could say his soul is dark because his spirit is full of hatred and his body has thus produced words and deeds that were sinful.

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your whole spirit and your whole soul/your life and your whole body that which animates your spirit displaying the type of soul/life you live, needs to BE PRESERVED blameless.
 

Jodi

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The flesh body does represent sin. Apostle Paul made that plain (Romans 7), as did our Lord Jesus when He said that we must be 'born again' (meaning our spirit by The Spirit) in order to receive salvation. Salvation is of our flesh? No, because Apostle Paul covered that point too about the idea of the resurrection to a "spiritual body".

1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

The idea of a fleshy resurrection is from an old Jewish tradition, because they don't believe in existence of those born in the flesh as being able to exist without a flesh body. To believe the future resurrection is one of flesh goes directly against what Apostle Paul said in the above 1 Cor.15:50 verse, and in the rest of that Chapter.

Paul was speaking of weak mortal flesh, he said, "24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Jesus's flesh was not allowed to see DECAY it was raised incorruptible in glory and power. Such was Paul's hope that he would be raised with the body Jesus's was raised with. Paul wanted a body not of death, he wanted to go from a mortal human to an immortal human, given immortality for all eternity. We are told that Jesus is to sit on David's throne according to the FLESH, not weak mortal flesh, flesh incorruptible of glory and power. Jesus was raised where there was no longer any temptation aroused by the WEAK flesh, no longer a body that was in bondage due to the fear of death, no longer a body that had to be served in order to live.
 

Bible_Gazer

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They way I have seen this is.
The body is just a house, we have a flesh house and if we make it to heaven we receive a heavenly house. 2 Corinthians 5:1
The soul is the real you that live in the house of flesh, then your move out a live soul into your new house from heaven.
Your spirit is what we know you by, so moving from flesh to celestial, we will know you by your spirit in your new house.
All have to be blameless before you can make it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

how I see it so far
 
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Davy

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YES and soul and spirit are often used denoting the same meaning speaking of both according to the mind of man.

From the beginning in Genesis, the bible tells me that soul means a living creature, living as God's breath is given unto it.

The soul that sins shall die we are told, or you could say the life lived as a sinner is a life that dies/ends/ceases/perishes. Your soul/your life how you live it is according to your spirit/mind. Your body animates your spirit/mind and displays how you live out your soul/life.
....

Again, the belief that the soul is some kind of fleshy object is not... written in God's Word. That's simply the way the Jews have chosen to interpret the 'man became a living soul' idea from Genesis 2.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

KJV

If no man can kill the soul (Greek psuche = breath), then what kind of material is it of, and where does it go at flesh death? Apostle Paul well answered that in 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. It was also explained here in the OT...

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV

That "spirit" some try to interpret as just something that animates all life. Per Jesus in Matt.10:28, we know the soul continues after flesh death, so this "spirit" here certainly means more than some simple scientific animation principle. And here's another proof of that...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

KJV

That event of Jesus going to the spirits in prison to preach The Gospel to them was prophesied in Isaiah 42:7.

Men's doctrines will lead one astray and deceive about this matter, trying to get us to believe that Christ's Salvation is of our flesh when it is not. Like Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50, "... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
 
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Davy

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Paul was speaking of weak mortal flesh, he said, "24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Jesus's flesh was not allowed to see DECAY it was raised incorruptible in glory and power. Such was Paul's hope that he would be raised with the body Jesus's was raised with. Paul wanted a body not of death, he wanted to go from a mortal human to an immortal human, given immortality for all eternity. We are told that Jesus is to sit on David's throne according to the FLESH, not weak mortal flesh, flesh incorruptible of glory and power. Jesus was raised where there was no longer any temptation aroused by the WEAK flesh, no longer a body that was in bondage due to the fear of death, no longer a body that had to be served in order to live.

I just showed enough Bible Scripture that proves we don't inherit flesh bodies at the resurrection.

Our Lord Jesus' body was transfigured to prove beyond all doubt that God actually raised Him from the dead. His resurrected body retained the marks of His crucifixion. But it is still the body of the other dimension, because a flesh body cannot walk through walls and appear in the midst of His disciples like He did, nor suddenly disappear from the midst of His disciples like He also did.

Our Lord Jesus existed prior... to being born through woman's womb. So how could He exist before without a flesh body? Well, the Pharisees in John 8 certainly had a hard time understanding that, because they also preferred the idea that the soul cannot manifest without flesh. Even Nicodemus was stumped about it, when Jesus well explained it to him, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6).
 
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Davy

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They way I have seen this is.
The body is just a house, we have a flesh house and if we make it to heaven we receive a heavenly house. 2Corinthians 5:1
The soul is the real you that live in the house of flesh, then your move out a live soul into your new house from heaven.
Your spirit is what we know you by, so moving from flesh to celestial, we will know you by your spirit in your new house.
All have to be blameless before you can make it. 1Thessalonians 5:23

how I see it so far

And that's pretty much correct per Bible Scripture, even Old Testament Scripture. In Eccl.12, we are shown the idea of a "silver cord" that is severed at flesh death, which our flesh then goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. And per our Lord Jesus in Matthew 10:28, we know our soul continues after flesh death, so the Eccl.12 idea of spirit going back to God must include our soul with it. Even our Lord Jesus showed this in Luke 16 about the story of Lazarus and the rich man when He revealed the great gulf border in the heavenly Paradise.

Now that "silver cord" of Eccl.12 is interesting, because it reveals a connecting link between our spirit/soul and our flesh body, showing two separate dimensions of existence, one of flesh, and another of spirit, the very distinction our Lord Jesus made in John 3 to Nicodemus.
 
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DoveSpirit05

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I appreciate you reading my post and giving a good follow up question!

I think it's important to remember the LORD'S words where He said that He established the END from the beginning, and that the END that we are given is unto a New Beginning. We are also told that the LORD is a potter over the clay.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.


Such a verse relates to God molding us, it's not about our beginning but what we BECOME in the END which God had prepared for us before He made the world. Similar we are told that our God is a consuming fire, and we are the metal put in the fire and are by such refined.

Your question is like the one Paul speaks of in Romans 9,

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in O see, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

As my understanding is that Adam and Eve were flesh/carnal, their mind/brain likewise is of flesh. God gave MAN even before the fall DESIRES, Eve wanted to eat the fruit as she thought it would TASTE GOOD, she likewise hoped it would make her wise, she desired WISDOM. She indeed walked after the desires according to her nature.

What would man be if God didn't give him any desires or pleasures for when those desires are fulfilled? Life would be numb and meaningless I suppose.

God is all knowing, all powerful, and we are but a creation of His.

By our nature verses His we are opposites
, but yet in our very nature we desire that which He is.

He is wise full of wisdom and knowledge, we are ignorant but we desire wisdom and knowledge
. God is of power, glory and honor, we have a natural desire for those things as well. The natural desires God gave to our carnal minds just mentioned are that which He is! Man being ignorant he does not know that the SOURCE to obtain the natural DESIRES of his human mind/spirit can only come from God. If man had them to begin with however he wouldn't know the source and would live a lie thinking they were of himself, and there would be no truth and no honor to the source, our One True God.

Eve thought she could obtain her desire for wisdom by eating fruit, she reasoned in her ignorant mind and ate the fruit going her own way, which exposed her error, her foolishness and proved to her in at least that instance that her Creator was true. The bible teaches us that we need to learn from God, we need God to direct our ways, we need the fruits of His Spirit being given and dwelling in us.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Man's state of flesh is of an IGNORANT mind, without the mercy of God and His given wisdom and understanding, man can only imagine what the truth is through his own reasoning, all he is capable of doing not having the source of truth is produce superstitions and lies, foolishness not wisdom, as he seeks to fulfill his natural desires.

We need God in order to truly fulfill the carnal mind's desires that God gave us, the fact that our natural mind does not know it yet and was given the capability to imagine what the truth might be, is where the enmity lives, BUT it is only a temporary state because God's plan from the beginning was to mold the clay into His image and be ALL in ALL.

God didn't create us as His puppets, where would we be if we didn't have an imagination? How long would it take to teach man the SOURCE of all things that are good, if we had all things in us from the beginning? Earning glory and honor, working for it and having a sense of accomplishment knowing God has been your guide, is far better than just having it handed to you.

Adam and Eve did not have the fruits of God's Spirit, Jesus on the other hand was the only mortal to have received the Spirit not by measure. God had said He would elect one from among the people call him to righteousness and direct all his ways. Jesus said he was being TAUGHT by God, we are told that Jesus was perfected, that he learned obedience by that which he suffered. Psalms 8 tells you that God would be mindful of a man, visit him, make him lower than the angels for the suffering of death and then crown him with glory and honor. Jesus obtained that glory and honor through having been given the Spirit, through God directing all his ways, through him learning and suffering.

well the fact that A&E wanted the fruit 4 wisdom could be simply down 2 curiosity and not the carnal mind. in all dat u still havnt really addressed my question?

by you saying humans were born sinners!! dat means God created dat which he hated!! and dat potter and clay analogy u used is 2 represent obedience, the clay in that passage didn't want 2 mold itself 2 the makers will ie the (sinner) so the potter made it into a horrible block instead of a pretty verse which was Gods plan 2 begin with, jeremiah 29:11

So how can God make a vessel of destruction into a vessel of righteousness? remember God doesn't force his will upon people, the sinner has no intension of obeying God from the get go! and it would be unfair 2 punish a born sinner, so ur potter clay analogy doesn't really hold weight,
 

DoveSpirit05

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God did not create something that He hates. God created something KNOWING the END from the beginning, He created man knowing the power that His Spirit has over the clay, that He can make that clay into living in His own image.

God's purpose before He created the world was to be ALL IN ALL. One should be able to reach the conclusion that God's accomplishment to achieve such is a PROCESS,
it's not instantaneous, otherwise would God have us be puppets or allow the clay to see himself as a god and not know God from the clay.

he can achieve dat just by giving us free will, then the clay submits his will 2 the potter dats the whole point!! so why u bringing sin into it, do u really understand the context of dat scripture? and where are u getting dis doctrine from?

and do you know what free will is?
 

Jodi

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They way I have seen this is.
The body is just a house, we have a flesh house and if we make it to heaven we receive a heavenly house. 2Corinthians 5:1
The soul is the real you that live in the house of flesh, then your move out a live soul into your new house from heaven.
Your spirit is what we know you by, so moving from flesh to celestial, we will know you by your spirit in your new house.
All have to be blameless before you can make it. 1Thessalonians 5:23

how I see it so far

My understanding from scripture is that God made MAN of the dust of the earth, NOT his body, but MAN himself, spirit/mind and all. You are either ALIVE or you are dead, you are either living or you cease from living, not there is one kind of life when you are in a flesh body and then a different kind of life when that body dies. Very simple, there is LIFE and there is DEATH. We are told that David to this day is dead, and that he died in faith where his "flesh rested in hope".

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Jesus was raised from the dead not having his flesh see decay, he rose incorruptible, in power, and glory as a HUMAN of the seed of David having a flesh and bones body. People say that he received a spirit body after he ascended to sit at God's right hand. There is NO account of this, what we are told is that it is the Son of MAN that sits at God's right hand and that it IS the Son of Man, the root and offspring of David who is returning. Likewise you are told that it is a MAN/ a HUMAN recognized from other creatures according to his specific kind of flesh, that God ordained that will judge the quick and the dead.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

There is one kind of flesh of MEN, compared with the flesh of other creatures, and to each God prepared glory. Animals in the Kingdom of God will no longer be wild, they will have God's glory of peace, the lion will eat grass along side the lamb, he will no longer be territorial and devour flesh. The glory OF MEN/HUMANS is that they too will have their body of flesh be at peace, no longer having to serve the flesh in order to survive, no longer being in bondage to the fear of death, having an immortal body of flesh.
 

DoveSpirit05

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Anyway!! the OS!! doctrine has been refuted!!

just look back at earlier comments involving me!! earnest.t.bass and some others!! even also look online and youtube, it gets dismantled everytime!! the roman catholics havnt a clue what their doing, u can ramble on with ur quoting nit picking scripture and guess work but u still cant substantiate ur position, all people do is swerve and giv straw mans!!

give me some cross references.
 

Jodi

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Again, the belief that the soul is some kind of fleshy object is not... written in God's Word. That's simply the way the Jews have chosen to interpret the 'man became a living soul' idea from Genesis 2.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

KJV

If no man can kill the soul (Greek psuche = breath), then what kind of material is it of, and where does it go at flesh death? Apostle Paul well answered that in 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. It was also explained here in the OT...

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV

That "spirit" some try to interpret as just something that animates all life. Per Jesus in Matt.10:28, we know the soul continues after flesh death, so this "spirit" here certainly means more than some simple scientific animation principle. And here's another proof of that...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

KJV

That event of Jesus going to the spirits in prison to preach The Gospel to them was prophesied in Isaiah 42:7.

Men's doctrines will lead one astray and deceive about this matter, trying to get us to believe that Christ's Salvation is of our flesh when it is not. Like Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50, "... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Hi Davy,

I'd like to respond to each of your scriptures/passages you believe are proof to your understanding.

Let's start with 1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Before giving my take on the passage above let's read,

Mathew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me
, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead quickened him -made him alive once more, was the same Spirit that had descended upon Jesus whereby he was then SENT to PREACH God's word, through that Spirit given unto him without measure.

Jesus didn't preach to the dead, Jesus didn't preach to immortal spirits. As the Spirit which Jesus preached through is a witness to our spirit that we are children of God, Jesus preached to the spirits of men that were in JAIL, incarcerated on earth. These men were sometime disobedient, just like others who then likewise repented and were saved through baptism/water. They have now a good conscience toward God and are counted as righteous, able to obtain the promise at Christ's return.
 

Jodi

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Hi Davy,

YOU:That event of Jesus going to the spirits in prison to preach The Gospel to them was prophesied in Isaiah 42:7.

ME: As said earlier, Jesus preached to the spirits of men, He preached through the Spirit of God, the same Spirit that is a witness to our spirit that we are children of God. When Jesus and Paul and others preached, were they preaching unto a man's feet, his arms perhaps, or maybe to his belly button? NO of course not! They weren't preaching to body parts, they were preaching to the people's spirits.

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Isaiah 42: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. ...6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Upon the anointing of Jesus he was sent out INTO THE WORLD to PREACH, to HEAL, to deliver captives. We are all captives, and it just so happens that some captives were likewise held captive by their own government and Jesus went and preached to them as well. Such was the PROPHECY. Jesus got rebuked for eating with sinners, I'm sure he likewise was ridiculed for preaching to people in prison. As said, he wouldn't be preaching to men's feet, but to their spirits.
 

Jodi

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he can achieve dat just by giving us free will, then the clay submits his will 2 the potter dats the whole point!! so why u bringing sin into it, do u really understand the context of dat scripture? and where are u getting dis doctrine from?

and do you know what free will is?

MAN can do NOTHING of himself. Jesus gave all credit to God, he received of God's Spirit not by measure, he was called to righteousness where God held his hand and kept him, directing all his ways. Jesus said ONLY GOD IS GOOD.

We are called to believe in this operation of God, the power of the influence of His Spirit upon a man, where by such God perfected Jesus, and we are promised to be also an heir of God a joint heir with Christ.

God calls according to His will people into faith, God does not fail, when He calls that means that He is setting His influence upon you that will trample all other influences, make those other influences seem pure foolishness.

Your will is dependent upon INFLUENCE, do you have control over all influences that have entered or will enter your life? NO you don't, so you do not have a "free will", your will reflects how you have been influenced throughout your life.

If ONLY GOD is GOOD where does that leave man when he is without God and God's mercy?