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Relation Jesus as God with Exodus 20 ?

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by Ricky W, Oct 23, 2007.

  1. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimPlease following me carefully, and i do hope you are understand what i trying to do by questioning it [​IMG].(BoranJarami)
    To answer your original question, Jesus is not an idol.
    Does Abraham, Moses, Mary, you, me, and others human being was an idol ?
    (Exodus 20:3) "You shall not have any other gods before Me."(Exodus 20:4) "You shall not make a graven image for yourself, or any likeness in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth;"These are two separate commands. We are to not have any other gods (20:3) and we are not to worship anything made by the hands of man (20:4).
    Even thought both verse was separate commands, but it's related on to the others.Now by using this verse, can we worship Abraham, Moses, Mary, you, or me as Well ? Because we are not idol which is made by the hands of man is itn't ?
    Jesus is not an "other god". We believe that he is the one true God. Jesus is not something that is made by the hands of man. God cannot be created.
    Other human, animal, and others Creature was not made by hand of man, but does that meant we are allow to be worshiped ?
    When God created the universe, he did so by speaking. In Genesis we see this, "then God said, Let light be! And there was light." (Genesis 1:3) So literally, in the beginning was the word. As we read in John 1:1, this word was both with God and was God at the same time. This can be a little difficult for us to understand, because we can not be with ourself.
    If you just think about it little bit more with what God has said in Genesis and then parallize it with John thought then you will understand, that what Jesus stand is the same thing as the light in the Genesis. In Genesis the Word of God is Let light be! then it result light, meanwhile in John it has the meaning that when God spoke then it became Jesus(pbuh) so we can conclude that Word made flesh(which is Jesus (pbuh)) at John, And at Genesis Word made light. And it is easier to understand rather then your own understanding, I suppose [​IMG].
    We also cannot be at two different places at the same time. This is because we are only human.
    Yes it's true, but seems like it has nothing to do with what you are talking about [​IMG].
    God, however, does not have the limits that we do. God can be with himself. God can be at two places at the same time. God can do anything. After all, he is God.
    Yes God has limit, God cannot felt sorry for everything that he already did, or is He can ? God cannot cry, God cannot eat, etc... That's why God has said, God was not human. And that's why God has limited him self for human understanding so we are not corrupting any of God Mighty.
    We then learn in John 1:14 that the word, which is God, is Jesus.
    I already give a proper meaning above(i do think that was the suppose one).And we also learn that God has appear through human Vagina (sorry if being rought, but i do really do not want to do so, it just this is the consequences if we are considering Jesus as God as well) and this situation i do really think not make sense at all, that's why I'm believe that Jesus was God, he is exists but not as God but human only(a holy man) as a prophet.
    How can Jesus talk to God in heaven if they are the same? It is because God can be at two places at once. He was both in heaven and on earth. Jesus didn't have to pray to himself because he already knew his own desires, but if he didn't pray the disciples would learn nothing about prayer. This is why Jesus prayed, to show us how it is done and how important it is.
    Do you think the disciples don't know how to pray ? They has Torah and others prophets writings for doing such of thing. So why the disciples wouldn't learn it ?Ok, just considered what you have said was 1 of the wisdom that can appear, but beside that, ofcourse it showing another think then that, if Jesus was God, of course this would cause that God him self need to pray that not make sense, if Jesus was God, then how come then God leaving God ?I think you should leave your every doctrine for a while then you will be able to see from every side.Wallaahu a'lam.
     
  2. BoranJarami

    BoranJarami New Member

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    Please following me carefully, and i do hope you are understand what i trying to do by questioning it.
    I think I understand.
    Does Abraham, Moses, Mary, you, me, and others human being was an idol ?
    No these are not idols, but they would be other gods if we worshiped them
    Even thought both verse was separate commands, but it's related on to the others.
    I agree. All commands of God are related, but they cover different subjects.
    Now by using this verse, can we worship Abraham, Moses, Mary, you, or me as Well ? Because we are not idol which is made by the hands of man is itn't ?

    Other human, animal, and others Creature was not made by hand of man, but does that meant we are allow to be worshiped ?
    No, as I mentioned above, while they are not idols, they would become other gods to us. An idol is something crafted of human hands to represent a god. A god is something or someone we worship. Since Jesus is the one true God, he is neither an “other” god nor an idol. We are to worship him.
    If you just think about it little bit more with what God has said in Genesis and then parallize it with John thought then you will understand, that what Jesus stand is the same thing as the light in the Genesis. In Genesis the Word of God is Let light be! then it result light, meanwhile in John it has the meaning that when God spoke then it became Jesus(pbuh) so we can conclude that Word made flesh(which is Jesus (pbuh)) at John, And at Genesis Word made light. And it is easier to understand rather then your own understanding, I suppose.
    I have thought about it more then a little bit and I must disagree. Just because something may be easier to understand doesn't make it the truth. The Word did not “make” flesh, the Word “became” flesh (John 1:14). John tells us that the word was Jesus, not that the word made Jesus. It may not be easy to understand but it is truth, and if we try and ask God to guide our thoughts, we can understand it.
    Yes God has limit, God cannot felt sorry for everything that he already did, or is He can ?
    “And Jehovah said, I will wipe off man whom I have created from the face of the earth, from man to beast, to the creeping thing and to the birds of the heavens; for I repent that I made them.” (Genesis 6:7)God was sorry that he made man.
    God cannot cry, God cannot eat, etc... That's why God has said, God was not human.
    Where is this written?
    And that's why God has limited him self for human understanding so we are not corrupting any of God Mighty.
    I do not believe that we can corrupt God, but yes, God has limited himself. Why do you think God has limited himself in these ways? Why did God choose not to become man?
    I already give a proper meaning above(i do think that was the suppose one).And we also learn that God has appear through human Vagina (sorry if being rought, but i do really do not want to do so, it just this is the consequences if we are considering Jesus as God as well) and this situation i do really think not make sense at all, that's why I'm believe that Jesus was God, he is exists but not as God but human only(a holy man) as a prophet.
    Why couldn’t God appear through a human vagina? Where is this written?I am sorry if it looks like I am asking silly questions. They are serious questions. We too often assume things about God that are not true.may God guide you as you seek the truth in all things.
     
  3. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(BoranJarami)
    No these are not idols, but they would be other gods if we worshiped themI agree, all commands of God are related, but they cover different subjects.No, as I mentioned above, while they are not idols, they would become other gods to us. An idol is something crafted of human hands to represent a god. A god is something or someone we worship. Since Jesus is the one true God, he is neither an “other” god nor an idol. We are to worship him.
    What i meant with has related 1 to the others is like the way you are saying above(*on coloring). And indeed it has the same subject if you realize it [​IMG]. Try to understand with what you has said which I'm colored on it.("BoranJarami")
    I have thought about it more then a little bit and I must disagree. Just because something may be easier to understand doesn't make it the truth.
    Well that's ok if you disagree, but it is easier and not may be. What make it is the truth is not without reason, but it is with reason which also came from bible it self.("BoranJarami")
    The Word did not “make” flesh, the Word “became” flesh (John 1:14). John tells us that the word was Jesus, not that the word made Jesus. It may not be easy to understand but it is truth, and if we try and ask God to guide our thoughts, we can understand it.
    I think you should bring what the Bible has said regarding on John 1:14 [​IMG].John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.It seems your word was not like way "John" has said.
    “And Jehovah said, I will wipe off man whom I have created from the face of the earth, from man to beast, to the creeping thing and to the birds of the heavens; for I repent that I made them.” (Genesis 6:7)God was sorry that he made man.Where is this written?
    Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?I Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.Zechariah 8:14 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:("BoranJarami")
    I do not believe that we can corrupt God, but yes, God has limited himself. Why do you think God has limited himself in these ways? Why did God choose not to become man?
    You may look at Numbers above [​IMG]. That is God spoke according to your bible not mine.
    Why couldn’t God appear through a human vagina? Where is this written?I am sorry if it looks like I am asking silly questions. They are serious questions. We too often assume things about God that are not true.may God guide you as you seek the truth in all things.
    Your question has been answer by Numbers above, just think about it, Ok. And supported by prophets. And not mine.Wallaahu a'lam.
     
  4. BoranJarami

    BoranJarami New Member

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    What i meant with has related 1 to the others is like the way you are saying above(*on coloring). And indeed it has the same subject if you realize it . Try to understand with what you has said which I'm colored on it.
    Either way, it does not matter. Jesus is not made by the hands of man and he is not an other god because he is the only God.
    Well that's ok if you disagree, but it is easier and not may be. What make it is the truth is not without reason, but it is with reason which also came from bible it self.
    I have yet to see your position in the Bible. If it is there, I hope that God may open my eyes to it. If it is not, I hope God will open your eyes to it.
    I think you should bring what the Bible has said regarding on John 1:14

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.It seems your word was not like way "John" has said.
    I think you misunderstand the English here. The term “was made” is not the same as “made”. “Was made” means became. In other words, the Word became flesh. This term is not used much in modern English, so you may not be familiar with it.
    Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?I Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.Zechariah 8:14 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:
    Each of these scriptures, if you read them within their context, is talking about a promise that God has made. The term “repent” here means to repent that promise, or to break the promise. These verses are saying that God will not break a promise, this does not mean that God is never sorry. Repent can have more then one meaning.In Genesis 6:7, God is not speaking of promises, but about making man. In this verse, God is clearly sorry for making man.In Numbers 23:19 and I Samuel 15:29, where it says, “God is not a man” this is a reference to man’s tendency to lie. He is saying that God will not lie like a man will. Besides, when this was written, God was not a man. God did not become flesh until He was born as Jesus. It does not say that God will never be a man.
    You may look at Numbers above. That is God spoke according to your bible not mine.

    Your question has been answer by Numbers above, just think about it, Ok. And supported by prophets. And not mine.
    I have thought about it and these verses do not say that man can corrupt God nor do they say that God will never be man. As far as I can tell, the prophets said no such thing.may God prepare a path for you and tare down the walls that stand in your way.
     
  5. Sara

    Sara New Member

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    Ricky,I have to say I agree with BoranJarami. I don't think you are understanding the English. I have put a word in brackets (below) to help you understand the meaning of the scripture.John 1:14 And the Word was made (became) flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Also, in dark orange, this is telling us that the word that became flesh (Jesus) "dwelt among us," meaning he was among us. He became one of us (human) to help usunderstand His Fathers word. "(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." This part of the verse then tells us that Jesus is the "only begotten of the Father". He is the begotten son of God. And he is full of "grace and truth."God BlessAnd may he help you to understand the true meaning of the scriptures.Sara
     
  6. Sara

    Sara New Member

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    And "grace and truth" can only be given by God the Father.Also,I see no one has come up with John 3:16 For God so loved the world, He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life.This also states that Jesus is the Son of God. He was begotten by God. And whosoever believes in God and Jesus shall have everlasting life.God blessSara
     
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