Replacement Theology

[Naomi25]

Okay...so, I know this can be a bit of a boiling point, conversation wise. And, well I'm not really posting this thread with the intent of setting off an argument. It's just something that's been bugging me for quite a while now, and...well, I want to talk about it.

So, I'm Amil...although the more I read, the more I'm coming to realize that I'm only Amil on the issues of the Millennium. On all the issues before that...I just don't know!!
Anyway, one of the criticisms Amil's get leveled at them all the time, is that they believe in "replacement theology". And then a whole lot of, what I would call, incorrect, descriptions follow that accusation. And it would bug me, because I'd be..."I don't know any Amil's who actually believe that...!"
And yet the other day (and I'm very frustrated that I can't remember where I heard it) I heard something that made me think that there are, indeed, those out there that hold to a supersessionism that perhaps defies biblical belief.

Which makes me wonder what I hold to...?
I see a future for National Israel. But a future where they recognize Jesus as their Messiah. I see that the Church has been grafted into the true Israel, but not replaced it.

But then, what do we make of verses like these:

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. - 1 Peter 2:9-10

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. - Gal 3:16

These verses suggest that: 1 - Peter gives to us the titles that were once only given to the Jews, and 2 - that the promises given to Abraham were actually made to Jesus.

What do we make of these? In light of other scriptures, in light of current events?

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.
Replacement Theology, or supersessionism has nothing to do with "NATURAL" Israel, and any inheritance of any LAND. but with Israel and every Nation Spiritually.

All promises are fulfilled IN "Christ" who is the HEAD of the Body the church, the PROMISED "SEED" for all NATIONS. the existence of all NATIONS is the guarantee of God, including Israel. but the SALVATION of EVERY SOUL in EVERY NATION is God's desire including Israel. 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth".

when God said "ALL" men this left no one out. so here is where I'll start my discussion at.

You hit the answer on the head, when you quoted Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ". this is the KEY POINT. not seed(s) but the SEED.

understand the problem is this. Israel is a "NATION" just like any other nation. the replacement is not in a natural nation, but in religious, or Spiritual beliefs.

then you hit it again when you quoted the apostle Peter. 1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light".

when God spoke to the children of Israel it was the foreshadow of all PEOPLE to come, who believe, hence a "testament".

The Church that the Lord Jesus is BUILDING IS not replacing the NATION Israel, nor any other NATION, BUT including every NATION as well as Israel.

as said, the PROMISE is to ALL NATIONS, who believe. supportive scripture,
Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Genesis 17:2 "And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

Genesis 17:3 "And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

Genesis 17:4 "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Genesis 17:5 "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Genesis 17:6 "And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

Genesis 17:7 "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis 17:8 "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God".

the seed who is Jesus is NOT JEWISH in NATION. supportive scripture,

1 Corinthians 12:12 "For as the body is one and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ". (we can STOP right here)

1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:14 "For the body is not one member, but many".

now in this body of NATURAL JEWS and natural GENTILES, "MANY NATIONS" what make them "one?". THE ANSWER,

Galatians 3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (there's our answer)

Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

THAT'S THE ANSWER, faith, Spiritually. NOT nationality.

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise". the promise, and promises was MADE to all NATIONS by God, remember Israel is only the foreshadow of all NATIONS. maybe I might need to define what foreshadowing means: be a warning or indication of (a future event). not present tense as with Israel, but future event in CHRIST JESUS. foreshadowing is synonyms with, REVELATION, ARE WE SEEING IT NOW?

the only thing being REPLACED, or supersession is ONE'S beliefs or the WAY ONE THINKS. A RENEWING OF THE MIND, both Jew and gentile. not your nationality, not your gender, not your worldly status.

for the apostle Paul made it plain as to who is a JEW? the answer,

Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God".

that answered the Jewish part, now the hot bed question on NATIONALITY. let the bible speak,

Acts 10:1 "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band". THIS MAN WAS A GENTILE, OR A MAN OF ANOTHER "NATION".

let'see what the apostle Peter say about man of another "NATION".

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him".

HOW MANY NATIONS? But in every nation

that's clear as a bell to me. the promise of inheritance is to any who fear God and worketh righteousness.

so personally I don't believe in any Replacement Theology, or supersessionism. if any thing I believe in an incorporation Theology.

that's my view on the subject.

 

[Helen]

Good one @101G :)

 

[Naomi25]

@101G , good answer, very thorough, thanks.
However, while I do agree that as far as the elect go, there are no longer Jew or Gentile, that we have become one in Christ, I am beginning to wonder if there is, perhaps, more to it than that. And...not strictly in the sense that Dispensationalists see. I think that they maybe go too over the top.
The things that are making me consider are these:
When God promises to Abraham that the land will belong to his decedents, he also mentions them in number, about them becoming slaves in Egypt and then God bringing the out and into the land. Every Jewish reader in the OT would have understood that promise to mean 'national' Israel was promised the land. Do we then, upon reading Galatians, decide that they had it all wrong, that hundreds of years of tradition are void, and that God did not correct them in it at all? Or do we say, perhaps, that Paul is talking about Jesus being heir to David's throne, to that promise of grace that is to come to all the elect (the true Israel). And one day national Israel will recognize that Jesus is their true King.

The other thing that makes me think this is...well...real life, and spiritual life. What people group, having been dispersed as often as the Jews have, have kept their national identity, and then managed to come back and form themselves into a Nation...in their original land? It's a bit mind boggling. I think we must allow that God has helped them. And the way the Jewish people have been hated, even since Jesus came, suggests Satan doesn't believe they are done being 'God's chosen people'. Chosen for what? I have no idea. I think perhaps Rom 9-11 suggests God will cause a great number of them to come to Christ...to go from 'national Israel' to 'elect Israel'.

I don't really think these two things are opposed to this 'inclusion theology' that you or I talk about. It probably is still too far from what the Dispensationalists think...as I see no biblical proof for a rebuilt temple or a separate 'plan' for them and us during...well...anything that comes after, whatever that may be.

 

[Truth7t7]

@101G , good answer, very thorough, thanks.
However, while I do agree that as far as the elect go, there are no longer Jew or Gentile, that we have become one in Christ, I am beginning to wonder if there is, perhaps, more to it than that. And...not strictly in the sense that Dispensationalists see. I think that they maybe go too over the top.
The things that are making me consider are these:
When God promises to Abraham that the land will belong to his decedents, he also mentions them in number, about them becoming slaves in Egypt and then God bringing the out and into the land. Every Jewish reader in the OT would have understood that promise to mean 'national' Israel was promised the land. Do we then, upon reading Galatians, decide that they had it all wrong, that hundreds of years of tradition are void, and that God did not correct them in it at all? Or do we say, perhaps, that Paul is talking about Jesus being heir to David's throne, to that promise of grace that is to come to all the elect (the true Israel). And one day national Israel will recognize that Jesus is their true King.

The other thing that makes me think this is...well...real life, and spiritual life. What people group, having been dispersed as often as the Jews have, have kept their national identity, and then managed to come back and form themselves into a Nation...in their original land? It's a bit mind boggling. I think we must allow that God has helped them. And the way the Jewish people have been hated, even since Jesus came, suggests Satan doesn't believe they are done being 'God's chosen people'. Chosen for what? I have no idea. I think perhaps Rom 9-11 suggests God will cause a great number of them to come to Christ...to go from 'national Israel' to 'elect Israel'.

I don't really think these two things are opposed to this 'inclusion theology' that you or I talk about. It probably is still too far from what the Dispensationalists think...as I see no biblical proof for a rebuilt temple or a separate 'plan' for them and us during...well...anything that comes after, whatever that may be.

The Church Is God's Israel, Children Of The Promised Seed.

This Is Inheritance Theology, Not Replacement :)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Okay...so, I know this can be a bit of a boiling point, conversation wise. And, well I'm not really posting this thread with the intent of setting off an argument. It's just something that's been bugging me for quite a while now, and...well, I want to talk about it.

So, I'm Amil...although the more I read, the more I'm coming to realize that I'm only Amil on the issues of the Millennium. On all the issues before that...I just don't know!!
Anyway, one of the criticisms Amil's get leveled at them all the time, is that they believe in "replacement theology". And then a whole lot of, what I would call, incorrect, descriptions follow that accusation. And it would bug me, because I'd be..."I don't know any Amil's who actually believe that...!"
And yet the other day (and I'm very frustrated that I can't remember where I heard it) I heard something that made me think that there are, indeed, those out there that hold to a supersessionism that perhaps defies biblical belief.

Which makes me wonder what I hold to...?
I see a future for National Israel. But a future where they recognize Jesus as their Messiah. I see that the Church has been grafted into the true Israel, but not replaced it.

But then, what do we make of verses like these:

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. - 1 Peter 2:9-10

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. - Gal 3:16

These verses suggest that: 1 - Peter gives to us the titles that were once only given to the Jews, and 2 - that the promises given to Abraham were actually made to Jesus.

What do we make of these? In light of other scriptures, in light of current events?

Naomi25, the gospel of grace given to the gentiles is an inheritance; children raised unto the promised seed. An inheritance to who? To His chosen: Abraham. Jacob. Through suffering and desolation it would seem God cast off Jacob and His promises to Abraham but that is not what scripture shows but rather God brought glory and favor (children) unto His chosen Israel (Jerusalem which is above) through the Son. The inheritance of Abraham is the gentiles. Through the putting off of the flesh, the Spirit raised(Christ) and bore children unto Abraham. The inheritance are those born-free from bondage. God has never left, cast-off for good, or abandoned His people but accomplishes what man can not do. (And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.) -and He did raise up stones.

Isaiah 11:10
[10] And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isaiah 54:3
[3] For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

first thanks for your reply.

he things that are making me consider are these:
When God promises to Abraham that the land will belong to his decedents, he also mentions them in number, about them becoming slaves in Egypt and then God bringing the out and into the land.

read this in Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:9 "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Hebrews 11:10 "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

there is your answer in verse 10. supportive scripture, 2 Peter 3:12 "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2 Peter 3:13 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:14 "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2 Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you".

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea".

Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled".

this heaven and this earth will pass away.

those fighting over the so-called promise land today is useless.

 

[101G]

The Church Is God's Israel, Children Of The Promised Seed.

This Is Inheritance Theology, Not Replacement :)

I like that term better "Inheritance Theology"

 

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

Hebrews 11:10 "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

there is your answer in verse 10. supportive scripture, 2 Peter 3:12 "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2 Peter 3:13 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:14 "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2 Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you".

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea".

<snip>

In the above 2 Peter 3: 13 verse quoted above and in Revelation 21: 1, the English word "New" is a poor translation of the Greek words found based on Greek root, G:2537 which has the meaning of refreshed like new and not the like the meaning of G:3501, which is "new" relative to time.

As such, G:2537 is telling us that God intends to renew/refurbish the earth and the heavens so that they are like new, restored to what His original intention of the earth and the heavens was but was corrupted by Satan.

Now our inheritance is the whole earth, so our fighting and forcing God's hand by believing that the Land of Canaan has been promised for to the Jews as their inheritance, is falsely based on a misunderstanding of Genesis 15 where God invokes a solemn covenant with Abraham as a sign covenant which when it has been fulfilled, will convince the descendants of Abraham that they will surely inherit the whole earth in the distant future as intended by God which He has informed us of.

Shalom

 

[Naomi25]

GINOLJC, to all.

first thanks for your reply.

read this in Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:9 "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Hebrews 11:10 "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

there is your answer in verse 10. supportive scripture, 2 Peter 3:12 "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2 Peter 3:13 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:14 "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2 Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you".

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea".

Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled".

this heaven and this earth will pass away.

those fighting over the so-called promise land today is useless.

Well, I'm not sure I completely agree with this. On one hand, absolutely! But I'm not sure that we can say that it is all. If we consider our inheritance through Christ, then all the world belongs to Christians. And if we say that we wait until a new heavens and a new earth, then nothing, currently, is ours. Which, I think, biblically, is probably accurate. It's our inheritance...thus, we have yet to receive it.
But I'm not really talking about the elect here. I'm talking about whether the Jewish people, now, have a right, under the promise God gave to Abraham, to that piece of land.
And I'm saying that I don't think we can dismiss the fact that while God may have been 'foreshadowing' Christ's ultimate inheriting of everything in that Abrahamic Covenant, he was also, in a very real way, telling Abraham..."see that piece of actual land, with those borders...I will bring your people out of captivity and give them that land as an eternal possession."
That's fairly forthright and clear. And just because something is a 'foreshadowing', does not mean it is not a real event also.
So...to everything you said...yes. But to the Jewish nation...I believe they still have a God given right to that piece of land...which we are seeing now. And when they becoming part of the believing body...the true Israel, they will become heirs to a much larger inheritance.
No...not useless

 

[brakelite]

Well, I'm not sure I completely agree with this. On one hand, absolutely! But I'm not sure that we can say that it is all. If we consider our inheritance through Christ, then all the world belongs to Christians. And if we say that we wait until a new heavens and a new earth, then nothing, currently, is ours. Which, I think, biblically, is probably accurate. It's our inheritance...thus, we have yet to receive it.
But I'm not really talking about the elect here. I'm talking about whether the Jewish people, now, have a right, under the promise God gave to Abraham, to that piece of land.
And I'm saying that I don't think we can dismiss the fact that while God may have been 'foreshadowing' Christ's ultimate inheriting of everything in that Abrahamic Covenant, he was also, in a very real way, telling Abraham..."see that piece of actual land, with those borders...I will bring your people out of captivity and give them that land as an eternal possession."
That's fairly forthright and clear. And just because something is a 'foreshadowing', does not mean it is not a real event also.
So...to everything you said...yes. But to the Jewish nation...I believe they still have a God given right to that piece of land...which we are seeing now. And when they becoming part of the believing body...the true Israel, they will become heirs to a much larger inheritance.
No...not useless

I think there may be a case for believing that Satan also may have had a hand in bring "Israel" back into the literal land. Why? Because it, meaning not just theologically and eschatologically but also politically and socially, has been a huge distraction not just for the world, but for the church. How much resources have been funnelled into the ongoing dispute over that little parcel of land which could have been going elsewhere? Been put to better use? Like for the gospel? How much funding has gone to support a nation...for what purpose if all is going to be destroyed at the second coming? And Zionism, Christian or otherwise, is meant to be a tool God is using to establish Israel again? That they can reinstitute a sacrilegious blasphemous counterfeit of Calvary in a man made temple to a God they abandoned and murdered 2000 years ago?

 

[Naomi25]

In the above 2 Peter 3: 13 verse quoted above and in Revelation 21: 1, the English word "New" is a poor translation of the Greek words found based on Greek root, G:2537 which has the meaning of refreshed like new and not the like the meaning of G:3501, which is "new" relative to time.

As such, G:2537 is telling us that God intends to renew/refurbish the earth and the heavens so that they are like new, restored to what His original intention of the earth and the heavens was but was corrupted by Satan.

Now our inheritance is the whole earth, so our fighting and forcing God's hand by believing that the Land of Canaan has been promised for to the Jews as their inheritance, is falsely based on a misunderstanding of Genesis 15 where God invokes a solemn covenant with Abraham as a sign covenant which when it has been fulfilled, will convince the descendants of Abraham that they will surely inherit the whole earth in the distant future as intended by God which He has informed us of.

Shalom

Hi! So...do you think that when they Jews had control over all that territory...under Solomon, for example, that was God fulfilling his promise, and a sign to them that in the future Abraham's descendants would inherit the whole earth in similar manner?
Can I take it to mean 'descendants' here would be the elect? And also...if this brief time of success was enough to signpost a future event, why did God promise the land as an 'everlasting possession'?
Thanks!

 

[Naomi25]

I think there may be a case for believing that Satan also may have had a hand in bring "Israel" back into the literal land. Why? Because it, meaning not just theologically and eschatologically but also politically and socially, has been a huge distraction not just for the world, but for the church. How much resources have been funnelled into the ongoing dispute over that little parcel of land which could have been going elsewhere? Been put to better use? Like for the gospel? How much funding has gone to support a nation...for what purpose if all is going to be destroyed at the second coming? And Zionism, Christian or otherwise, is meant to be a tool God is using to establish Israel again? That they can reinstitute a sacrilegious blasphemous counterfeit of Calvary in a man made temple to a God they abandoned and murdered 2000 years ago?

Some good thoughts, but, I'm not sure I can agree. Firstly, why would Satan change tactics on his dealing with the Jewish people? For all of history he has seemed intent on making them suffer and killing them. Even now, there is still demonic-like hatred focused upon them. For nothing more than they are Jews. It's bizarre.
As for the money that has been funneled to Israel. Forget the spiritual nature of it for a moment, is it foolish to financially support the only democracy in area? I don't think so. I think it's our (Western civilization) duty to help them establish themselves as best they can, surrounded as they are by dictators and regimes.
As far as the gospel? The number of Jews coming to Christ is growing. And we can see in Paul's letter to the Romans that he both longs for and anticipates a day when his Jewish brothers will come to Christ. That is a day every single Christian should long for as well. I mean, really! Israel...don't you sometimes just, well...feel, for them? It's not like they are following a false god, like the Muslims. They follow the God of the Bible...and yet, they still miss that mark! Until they see Jesus as their Messiah, they will not be saved. So close, yet so far. So loved by God because of the Patriarch's, but not there yet....
No...no money is wasted, if it is wasted for souls...no matter who the souls are. Jewish souls need it just as much as Muslim souls, or Buddhist souls, or atheist souls. And so what if it will be destroyed at the second coming? Everything is to be remade, including ourselves!!
As far as re-establishment of the Temple and sacrifices...I don't know. I'm not sure I see that in scripture, but I think we can be sure of this...what ever happens, Paul sees a great influx of Jews at the end of the age. That means God's hand is in it. Even if he is using the foolishness of man, of the evil intent of Satan or man to achieve it, it will happen, and it will be glorious.

 

[Philip James]

I see a future for National Israel. But a future where they recognize Jesus as their Messiah. I see that the Church has been grafted into the true Israel, but not replaced it

Amen!

 

[brakelite]

Who is true Israel? Is it the physical nation fighting for its existence in the Middle East, or is it the spiritual entity we know as the church. And if its the church, which one?

The name “Israel” first appears in the Bible in Genesis 32:28 After a night of wrestling with the heavenly visitor (who I personally believe to be Christ Himself) Jacob prevails in his efforts and his name is changed from Jacob, the deceiver or supplanter, to Israel, meaning he will rule. Jacob has prevailed with God and overcome.

At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God’s blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the ‘Angel’ asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies ‘my name is Jacob’. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the ‘Angel’ saying “for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.”
Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin.

This is significant as it tells us God’s purpose for His people. That is, to live in victory over sin, to show forth God’s true character to the world.

In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel’s descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses “and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh ‘Thus saith the Lord,Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me…”
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people.
Did Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Previously, God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God’s chosen able to fulfil the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Even in the wilderness, Israel failed over lust for food but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power.

It wasn’t until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title “Israel” in it’s truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Mathew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfilment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Mathew’s inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3. (Interesting that Jesus overcame in the wilderness where appetite came under particular scrutiny).

Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Col 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.

Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.
So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious.

What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus’ descendants, just as it did to Jacob’s descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9).
So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the ‘seed’ of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham’s seed because they are Christ’s. They are also heirs according to the promise. "If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal.3:29 The promises of scripture are conditional. The promise was for only one very select group of people...Abraham's seed. This cannot apply to a physical people, because then we would have to include these guys...
Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, and consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him. KJV — Matthew 26:3,4.
No, only the children of the promise are counted as the seed...they that are in Christ.

This is not ‘replacement ‘ theology. It is merely a revelation of who true Israel always was and who Israel is now. It is those people, of whatever nation kindred tongue and people, who by faith in the mercy grace and power of God overcome sin and receive Christ’s righteousness and forgiveness as a gift and are willing to share that gift with the lost. True Israel was always exclusively those who “as princes had power with God and men and prevailed”.

Thus the unfulfilled covenant that Jeremiah speaks of and repeated in hebrews, “I will place My laws in their hearts and in their minds I will write them” applies to the church, not a resurgent nation. All Israel will be saved, but the descendants of Jesus, not flesh and blood descendants of Jacob.

And the prophecies that most believe apply to the nation, apply to the church. For example, Armageddon is not the world arrayed against the nation of Israel, but the unsaved world (those who have accepted the mark) arrayed against the remnant who have refused the mark, and are under the sentence of death. Those who keep the commandments of God, (and thus have gained that victory over sin) and have the faith of Jesus. Rev.12:17; 14:12.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hi! So...do you think that when the Jews had control over all that territory...under Solomon, for example, that was God fulfilling his promise, and a sign to them that in the future Abraham's descendants would inherit the whole earth in similar manner?

In a nut shell, that is what I am suggesting. Below is a list of verse references where God promised to Abraham that he and his descendants would inherit the earth some time in their future: -

The Hebrew Root word, H:0776 is אָ֫רֶץ and the transliterated word is erets and this Hebrew Root is found embedded in 2503 word in the Old testament in possibly around 64 different Hebrew word variations.

In regards to the promised inheritance of the whole earth, the Hebrew Transliterated Word is hā·’ā·reṣ and it, according to Bible Hub, is found 934 times in the Old Testament. It is first found in Genesis 1:1 and is translated into English using the word “Earth.”

Gen 1:1 הָאָֽרֶץ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Concerning the occurrences of hā·’ā·reṣ with respect to Abraham’s Story, the following is a list of verses where this Hebrew Transliterated word is found in the Book of Genesis at the respective refgiven verse references: -

12:1 הָאָ֖רֶץ Now the Lord had said to Abram:

"Get out of your country,

From your family

And from your father's house,

To a land that I will show you.

12:7 הָאָ֣רֶץ Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." And there he built an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

13:6 הָאָ֖רֶץ Now the land was not able to support them, that they might dwell together, for their possessions were so great that they could not dwell together.

13:9 הָאָ֙רֶץ֙ Is not the whole land before you? Please separate from me. If you take the left, then I will go to the right; or, if you go to the right, then I will go to the left."

13:15 הָאָ֛רֶץ for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.

13:16 הָאָ֑רֶץ And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered.

13:16 הָאָ֑רֶץ And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered.

15:7 הָאָ֥רֶץ Then He said to him, "I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it."

15:18 הָאָ֣רֶץ On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

"To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates —

18:18 הָאָֽרֶץ since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

18:25 הָאָ֔רֶץ Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

19:23 הָאָ֑רֶץ The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar.

19:28 הָאָ֔רֶץ Then he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain; and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace.

19:31 הָאָֽרֶץ Now the firstborn said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth.

21:23 הָאָ֖רֶץ Now therefore, swear to me by God that you will not deal falsely with me, with my offspring, or with my posterity; but that according to the kindness that I have done to you, you will do to me and to the land in which you have dwelt.

22:18 הָאָ֑רֶץ In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.

If you consider Genesis 15, then we can discern that Abraham questioned God as to how he would know that at some time in the future he and his descendants would inherit the whole earth.

God’s response was to enter into a Solemn Sign Covenant where God promised to Abraham that his descendants would hold possession for a time, the land which Abraham had seen, during his lifetime to confirm that his promised inheritance of the whole earth would come true. This area of the Middle East that Abraham had seen and walked across stretched from the River Euphrates to the Nile River. This was the land that Solomon ruled over for a time and collected tribute from the people who lived in the defined land in Genesis 15:17-21. The fulfilment of this sign covenant, when recognised as the fulfilment of the Solemn Sign Covenant, was meant to put at ease the descendant s of Abraham, that at some time in the future, at a time which seems to vanish in the distant of time as it is passing, and it has been outside of their understanding of how God works His wonders.

Can I take it to mean 'descendants' here would be the elect? And also...if this brief time of success was enough to signpost a future event, why did God promise the land as an 'everlasting possession'?

Thanks!

If we consider the “first perpetual” undertaking of God with respect to the “land/earth” it is found in Genesis 12:3 where we are told that The Descendants of Abraham would be a blessing to all of the people who have taken root in the Good fertile soil, {translated as “land”}, of the Lord. Where Hebrew Root H:0127 has the meaning of “red soil,” or fertile farming fields, which, to my way of thinking, comes back to the parable of the Sower. Where the seed is broadcast over good soil it will grow and yield much seed and a plentiful harvest. Only those who are prepared to take root in God’s prepared fields will be blessed.

To me, it seems that God made a perpetual promise that at some time in the future He would give them the land/earth as an inheritance. The problem we have is the distance ion time between when the covenant was made and when God intends to honour that covenant. We focus on receiving the “land” instead of focusing on developing a relationship with our Lord God. Instead we worry about how and when we will receive that promised inheritance. Our eyes are bigger than our stomachs, is a way of saying that we are being greedy for something.

We should be happy if we can be a foot servant of the Lord in His household. That should be reward enough. Our eyes are focused on the wrong outcome, and we will not be found righteous.

Shalom

 

[Truth7t7]

In a nut shell, that is what I am suggesting. Below is a list of verse references where God promised to Abraham that he and his descendants would inherit the earth some time in their future: -

The Hebrew Root word, H:0776 is אָ֫רֶץ and the transliterated word is erets and this Hebrew Root is found embedded in 2503 word in the Old testament in possibly around 64 different Hebrew word variations.

In regards to the promised inheritance of the whole earth, the Hebrew Transliterated Word is hā·’ā·reṣ and it, according to Bible Hub, is found 934 times in the Old Testament. It is first found in Genesis 1:1 and is translated into English using the word “Earth.”

Gen 1:1 הָאָֽרֶץ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Concerning the occurrences of hā·’ā·reṣ with respect to Abraham’s Story, the following is a list of verses where this Hebrew Transliterated word is found in the Book of Genesis at the respective refgiven verse references: -

12:1 הָאָ֖רֶץ Now the Lord had said to Abram:

"Get out of your country,

From your family

And from your father's house,

To a land that I will show you.

12:7 הָאָ֣רֶץ Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." And there he built an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

13:6 הָאָ֖רֶץ Now the land was not able to support them, that they might dwell together, for their possessions were so great that they could not dwell together.

13:9 הָאָ֙רֶץ֙ Is not the whole land before you? Please separate from me. If you take the left, then I will go to the right; or, if you go to the right, then I will go to the left."

13:15 הָאָ֛רֶץ for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.

13:16 הָאָ֑רֶץ And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered.

13:16 הָאָ֑רֶץ And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered.

15:7 הָאָ֥רֶץ Then He said to him, "I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it."

15:18 הָאָ֣רֶץ On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

"To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates —

18:18 הָאָֽרֶץ since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

18:25 הָאָ֔רֶץ Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

19:23 הָאָ֑רֶץ The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar.

19:28 הָאָ֔רֶץ Then he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain; and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace.

19:31 הָאָֽרֶץ Now the firstborn said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth.

21:23 הָאָ֖רֶץ Now therefore, swear to me by God that you will not deal falsely with me, with my offspring, or with my posterity; but that according to the kindness that I have done to you, you will do to me and to the land in which you have dwelt.

22:18 הָאָ֑רֶץ In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.

If you consider Genesis 15, then we can discern that Abraham questioned God as to how he would know that at some time in the future he and his descendants would inherit the whole earth.

God’s response was to enter into a Solemn Sign Covenant where God promised to Abraham that his descendants would hold possession for a time, the land which Abraham had seen, during his lifetime to confirm that his promised inheritance of the whole earth would come true. This area of the Middle East that Abraham had seen and walked across stretched from the River Euphrates to the Nile River. This was the land that Solomon ruled over for a time and collected tribute from the people who lived in the defined land in Genesis 15:17-21. The fulfilment of this sign covenant, when recognised as the fulfilment of the Solemn Sign Covenant, was meant to put at ease the descendant s of Abraham, that at some time in the future, at a time which seems to vanish in the distant of time as it is passing, and it has been outside of their understanding of how God works His wonders.



If we consider the “first perpetual” undertaking of God with respect to the “land/earth” it is found in Genesis 12:3 where we are told that The Descendants of Abraham would be a blessing to all of the people who have taken root in the Good fertile soil, {translated as “land”}, of the Lord. Where Hebrew Root H:0127 has the meaning of “red soil,” or fertile farming fields, which, to my way of thinking, comes back to the parable of the Sower. Where the seed is broadcast over good soil it will grow and yield much seed and a plentiful harvest. Only those who are prepared to take root in God’s prepared fields will be blessed.

To me, it seems that God made a perpetual promise that at some time in the future He would give them the land/earth as an inheritance. The problem we have is the distance ion time between when the covenant was made and when God intends to honour that covenant. We focus on receiving the “land” instead of focusing on developing a relationship with our Lord God. Instead we worry about how and when we will receive that promised inheritance. Our eyes are bigger than our stomachs, is a way of saying that we are being greedy for something.

We should be happy if we can be a foot servant of the Lord in His household. That should be reward enough. Our eyes are focused on the wrong outcome, and we will not be found righteous.Shalom

The promises made to Abraham were fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the Church.

Galatians 3:16KJV
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Exodus 32:13KJV
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[101G]

In the above 2 Peter 3: 13 verse quoted above and in Revelation 21: 1, the English word "New" is a poor translation of the Greek words found based on Greek root, G:2537 which has the meaning of refreshed like new and not the like the meaning of G:3501, which is "new" relative to time.

As such, G:2537 is telling us that God intends to renew/refurbish the earth and the heavens so that they are like new, restored to what His original intention of the earth and the heavens was but was corrupted by Satan.

Now our inheritance is the whole earth, so our fighting and forcing God's hand by believing that the Land of Canaan has been promised for to the Jews as their inheritance, is falsely based on a misunderstanding of Genesis 15 where God invokes a solemn covenant with Abraham as a sign covenant which when it has been fulfilled, will convince the descendants of Abraham that they will surely inherit the whole earth in the distant future as intended by God which He has informed us of.

Shalom

GINOLJC, to all.

first thanks for the reply.

in respond to the idea new, you said, "As such, G:2537 is telling us that God intends to renew/refurbish the earth and the heavens so that they are like new, restored to what His original intention of the earth and the heavens was but was corrupted by Satan".
I must disagree, new here, it's
G2537 καινός kainos (kai-nos') adj.
1. brand-new (i.e. newly made or introduced).
2. (also, by implication) distinctly better.
{while G3501 is properly so with respect to age}
[of uncertain affinity]
KJV: new

NOTICE definition #2 closely, it says "distinctly better. in the new EARTH, there is no more sea.

I believe that's one that is distinctly better. second there in no moon nor sun because, Revelation 21:23 "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof".

see, as in a natural example, a new car is the same as an old car but with things distinctly better. the new car have air condition, were the old didn't. but both have four wheels. and we can go on and on about "distinctly better".

but the verse that give me this understanding that the new heaven and EARTH will be "distinctly better" is this verse. 1 Corinthians 2:9 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him". this is taken from Isaiah 64:4.

"neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him". if not true, God would not have said so.

I'm looking for the NEW heaven and the NEW earth, and all the amenities that go with them.

PCY

 

[101G]

But I'm not really talking about the elect here. I'm talking about whether the Jewish people, now, have a right, under the promise God gave to Abraham, to that piece of land.

thanks for the reply.

well here is the real deal about the land.

Genesis 17:4 "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Genesis 17:5 "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Genesis 17:6 "And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

Genesis 17:7 "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis 17:8 "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God".

Abraham got the promise and the covenant by FAITH in GOD. so in reality, those who are of FAITH have the RIGHT to the "the land wherein he was a stranger, all the land of Canaan"

I suggest one read the fine print again.

NOW concering your question Naomi25 the Jews, listen closely. Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

Romans 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Romans 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: (STOP, read that again), but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

again who are the child of GOD? those who are BORN AGAIN. meaning alive SONS, by the Spirit, for it is the Spirit that quicken, they are the ones who inherit. dead/fleshly son don't inherit. that's why I said, Truth7t7 got it right, "This Is Inheritance Theology, Not Replacement".

see, the promise is an Inheritance, hence the reason for a TESTAMENT, or will. if you're not in the will you cannot inherit. for God only have "ALIVE" sons. and only "ALIVE" sons can inherit.

just as in the natural, you cannot receive an Inheritance if dead... think about it.

see we have co-Inheritance, Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise". now let's go back to Genesis 17:8 "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, (STOP, there is that SEED), the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God".

see, if one want to claim a land then it's Christ, Romans 8:17 "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together".

so the land belong to CHRIST and the JOINT-HEIRS, us, who believe in God By and through FAITH. listen, Romans 3:29 "Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Romans 3:30 "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


FAITH in GOD is the Key
PCY

 

[Jay Ross]

GINOLJC, to all.

first thanks for the reply.

in respond to the idea new, you said, "As such, G:2537 is telling us that God intends to renew/refurbish the earth and the heavens so that they are like new, restored to what His original intention of the earth and the heavens was but was corrupted by Satan".
I must disagree, new here, it's
G2537 καινός kainos (kai-nos') adj.
1. brand-new (i.e. newly made or introduced).
2. (also, by implication) distinctly better.
{while G3501 is properly so with respect to age}
[of uncertain affinity]
KJV: new

NOTICE definition #2 closely, it says "distinctly better. in the new EARTH, there is no more sea.

I believe that's one that is distinctly better. second there in no moon nor sun because, Revelation 21:23 "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof".

see, as in a natural example, a new car is the same as an old car but with things distinctly better. the new car have air condition, were the old didn't. but both have four wheels. and we can go on and on about "distinctly better".

but the verse that give me this understanding that the new heaven and EARTH will be "distinctly better" is this verse. 1 Corinthians 2:9 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him". this is taken from Isaiah 64:4.

"neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him". if not true, God would not have said so.

I'm looking for the NEW heaven and the NEW earth, and all the amenities that go with them.

PCY

Hello, would you mind providing your link to the Strong definition that you used in your post so that I can validate your source.

Thanks