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Featured Replacement Theology

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Naomi25, May 15, 2018.

  1. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Active Member

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    Google Dictionary: Strong

    strong
    strôNG/
    adjective
    1. 1.
      having the power to move heavy weights or perform other physically demanding tasks. :D
     
  2. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Sure, Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments. you can get it in hard back, or through the word computer program software at Bible Software theWord!

    if you have the software program, just click on the tab "downloads" then "module Library" and "dictionaries" and select Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments and download.

    PCY.
     
  3. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, downloaded the Word and Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's dictionaries and I see that you have provided a quote from his book.

    Sadly, when I googled him I found very little information about him. When I compared my understanding of the New (neos) wine in the new (kanious) wineskins, parable, his enhanced dictionary did not gel with my understanding of that parable.

    Do you know anything else about the author, i.e. his background, religious beliefs etc.

    Thanks
     
  4. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    @brakelite I do agree with everything you've written! I just think it doesn't exclude who 'National' Israel is...or more importantly, who they can come to be. This is why I differentiate between 'national' and 'true'. Paul helps us make that distinction. 'National' being those, now, who are Jews, yes, but do not believe in Jesus as Messiah. 'True' Israel, is, as you say, those who are in Christ...the elect of God.
    The reason I believe God has a future for 'national' Israel is because of Romans 11:

    I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

    7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

    “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    eyes that would not see
    and ears that would not hear,
    down to this very day.”


    9 And David says,

    “Let their table become a snare and a trap,
    a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
    10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
    and bend their backs forever.”


    Gentiles Grafted In
    11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!


    13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.


    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.


    The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
    25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved

    It seems clear to me that Paul foresees a future where God will 'graft' back onto the olive tree many Jews, bringing them to a saving faith in Christ. There will come a point where "the time of the gentiles will be fulfilled", and our purpose of provoking the Jews to jealousy will be complete, and God will bring many of 'national' Israel back into being 'true' Israel.
     
  5. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    While this is very interesting, and certainly is true in the 'grand' scheme of things, I think you are missing the context of what God is actually promising Abraham.
    While the word used may be the same...land/earth, we can see that God deliberately shows Abraham a boundary of land in Gen 15. As you say, between the Nile and the Euphrates Rivers, and then also gives other boundaries based on where other tribes are living. This is very specific if God is actually meaning "I give you all the earth".
    And I think we must be careful in assuming that 'holding' Israel, in its entirety for such a short time, is enough to 'ratify', so to speak, this covenant of "all the earth, forever". We see no such language for this, we see only promises of possession...eternal, specific, guaranteed.


    God does surely promise his elect, through Christ, the inheritance of...well, everything. And most Christians understand this promise to be speaking of the New heavens and new earth, or at least the Millennium. So usually, you do see us waiting with patience and focusing on our relationship with our Saviour. It's not really like we're hanging out for real estate instead of him, anyway. What's the point of heaven without Jesus?
    And...I'm not even that sure that I'm pushing for direct ownership for that piece of land for the Jews...except...the root cause under it. We're discussing God's promises to Abraham. What were they, what did they mean? Where they two-fold, having a primary foreshadowing purpose, then a grander fulfilling role, as we often see in scripture?
     
  6. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Hi Naomi.
    I know that Romans 11 is used as evidence for a future 'saving' of 'national' Israel. Yet have we not seen that in action already, for Paul used his own personal salvation and experience as evidence that "God has not rejected His people." And of course thousands of other of his kinsmen comprised the basis for the NT church. So yeah, God hadn't abandoned His people, He has been saving them for the last 2000 years, and is still doing so today. What the scriptures do not say explicitly is that when the fulness of the Gentiles are come in, then national Israel will turn en masse to their Messiah. That partial hardening has seen over the centuries many Jews coming to Jesus, and lately there has been a rise in those numbers, but little is heard of it, but the promise is that all Israel will be saved...this cannot be national Israel, although it would be great, for it would mean they are saved under different conditions than the rest of us. The Bible is clear. National or racial allegiances have no bearing whatsoever with regards salvation. It is Christ or nothing.
    https://flashtrafficblog.wordpress....-isnt-reporting-this-but-its-worth-examining/

    What I do not like is the Zionist extreme of Christianity that supports Israel even in their atrocities against Palestinians, as if this is somehow the "will of God to fulfil prophecy". That it is God's will to have the temple rebuilt is a rank deception. To have a temple service contradicting all His Son accomplished is a rank blasphemy...and Christians support and even contribute finance towards this scheme is nuts. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me that God actively intervenes to stop it.
     
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  7. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    brakelite

    There will be two more temples built. One for the tribulation period and then the millennial temple. The drawings and order for the millennial temple are found in (Ez. 40-48).

    Salvation has always been by Jesus Christ, no matter what race one may be of. But salvation is always also of the Jews. (John 4:22) "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

    (Eph. 2:12) "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

    Stranger
     
  8. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Reply to OP.

    Hello @Naomi25,

    I also see a future for National Israel too, for the promises of God are without repentance (Rom. 11:29). What He says He means, and what He says He will do, He will indeed do. Galatians 3:17 says,

    'And this I say,
    that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ,
    the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul,
    that it should make the promise of none effect.'

    (Gal 3:17)

    * The covenant (or promise) referred to here is that of Genesis 15, isn't it, which was an unconditional covenant made by God to Abraham, concerning Abraham and his descendants, the literal People of Israel. The conditional covenant (or promise) that was made with the People of Israel at Sinai, which included the law, could not dis-annul the promise made to Abraham, or make it ineffectual.

    * Looking now at Galatians 3:16,

    'Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.
    He saith not, And to seeds, as of many;
    but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ.'

    * Amillennialists, reject the idea that Abraham's seed can refer to the literal people of Israel, and this is the verse they frequently quote, but if they would only look down the chapter and read the last verse (Gal 3:29) this is what they would find:

    'And if ye (the Galatian believers) be Christ's,
    then are ye Abraham's seed,
    and heirs according to the promise.'

    * So, Abraham has a literal seed after all! Is Paul contradicting himself? No, not when all the Scriptural facts are taken into consideration. In verse 16, Paul is alluding to Genesis 21:12; ' ... for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.'

    * The Hebrew 'zera' (seed) is a collective noun and is used here as a singular with a singular verb, but if we turn to Genesis 17:7 we read:

    'And I will establish My covenant
    between Me and thee and thy seed (zera)
    after thee in their generations,
    for an everlasting covenant ...'

    * Here zera is obviously treated as a plural (generations) and the truth of the matter is that 'the Seed', (Christ) and 'the seed '(Abraham's posterity) is looked on as a unity in the kingdom purposes of God and both are necessary in the divine plan. The Lord Jesus Christ is the one foundation for the whole redemptive purpose of God which embraces both heaven and earth. In this way the Apostle was able to dispose of objections that might be made by any Judaistic opposer, that the law of Moses cancelled the promises of grace made to Abraham four centuries before.

    Praise God!

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris






     
  9. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Active Member

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    The only future promise to Israel is the "Remnant" will be grafted back in, God has no future plan with Ethnic Israel Outside of Jesus Christ, And The Chosen Remnant.

    Romans 9:6-8KJV
    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Romans 11:1-5KJV
    11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but
    the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
     
  10. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
     
  11. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, to all

    yes, there is not to much info on the man, but this is only an enhancement of the strong. from read bits here and ther it seem as stated in some article that he's a scholar, especially in old testament Hebrew words, but I have not confirmed this. I have been using this dictionary for years now and it have been great in giving understanding of difficult words. but take note, as I used the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's dictionary I compare it to the language of several other dictionaries to make sure I get the best understanding. all dictionaries have some good points, but I have found in my studies no one dictionary stand out as the perfect dictionary. that's why I used several dictionaries so that I can zero in on the best answer.

    oh yes, by the way the WORD program, have you used it yet? at first if not use to it, it may seem difficult at first but when one learn it man it's a powerful tool for serious bible study. I use other programs also, but the Word is my primary program I use.

    be blessed.
     
  12. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Charity! Thanks for your post. I can't remember if in the OP I said that I'm actually an Amil or not...but I am...sort of. So...surprise! And, actually, I'm not the only Amil I know who sees a future for national Israel.
    I think that within the Amil camp there are two sorts...those who lean more towards the Preterist side of things....those who would be more into 'no future for Israel', and then those who see more future fulfillment ahead as well the other stuff.

    And I agree, I think we must allow that scripture does also speak about the promise in terms of descendants (plural) other than just Christ. Of course Christ is the ultimate, but we know that scripture is always doing that...foreshadow, then the ultimate.
     
  13. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Hi! Sorry, I'm not sure what this is implying. Just a statement...?
     
  14. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Hi brakelite. Well...I think we must take the passage in it's context. Paul says that at present (when Paul was writing) that God's promise to the Jews was upheld because there was a remnant kept. So, that's what we see now...Messianic Jews...those Jews who come to Christ, as you say. But then the focus of the text very naturally speaks of a future time when "all" will be grafted back in. This is very different than 'remnant'. Any natural reading of it, I believe, can leave you with no other conclusion. Paul clearing distinguishes between Jew and Gentile (even when he's talking about believers the distinction is plain), and it also becomes clear that the status Paul is explaining then (that upholds God's promise), is not what he sees for future Israel.
    I'm not exactly sure how you see this must mean a different 'condition' that they are saved under. Why must 'National Israel'....a great number of ethnic Jews, not be allowed to find Jesus in a similar manner to we have? We know the Spirit is needed to open a person's eyes to the truth. I expect it will be the same for them. In what, exact, circumstances God will use to bring great numbers of them to him, I don't know, but I expect it will be obvious!

    Oh...I am not one of those Zionist who think that everything the Nation of Israel does is wonderful, just because it's Israel. They, currently, are just a secular nation, like any other.
    However...I must question your view on their "atrocities" against Palestinians. Gaza booted Israel out of their boarders in 2007, and they went. Guess who took over? The PA and Hamas. Do you know what they do? They take millions of dollars of aid (do you know that Gaza is one of the highest subsidized states in the world) and passes on not a cent to the people, while the President of the PA buys himself a private jet for several hundred million. Then they build their terror units and bases in school buildings and under homes, betting that the Israelis won't bomb them.
    The demonstrations that just went on when they opened the American Embassy? Hamas went around putting out pamphlets and saying on megaphones that the Israelis don't shoot, so the women and children should go up front. This...after Israel had repeatedly said, up front, that they cannot allow their boarders to be breached. Men who behave like this are cowards and animals. And when the Jews protected their boarder (as any Country would do, when they have enemies declaring they want death to every last woman and child), then the Liberal media and Muslim radicals splashed the death toll around the world.

    Is the Jewish Nation perfect? No. But people need to get real about what's over their boarders. You can't negotiate with animals like that. Do I feel terrible for the people living under the reign of Hamas and the PA? Of course...anyone with a pulse would. But the blame needs to be on the PA and Hamas, not on Israel. The equivalent is blaming America for the mess that Mexico is in, instead of putting it where it needs to be; the drug cartels. Imagine the whole world blaming America and telling America they needed to drop the boarder and let all the Mexicans (cartel members included) into the Country. No! To keep American citizens safe, you keep the Cartels out, and you, rightly, blame the Cartels for the mess going on down there.
     
  15. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Active Member

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    Well Naomi I agree there will be a future "Remnant" that will be saved, and the 144,000 Jewish Virgins would be part of that number.

    You alude to "All Ethnic Israel" being saved, which would be false, when the last person that is predestined and chosen to salvation enters the sheepfold then "All Israel" is saved

    Below verse (7) you have the "Remnant" Jew being saved, with the rest of the Jews being blind to salvation? AS you clearly see your all ethnic Israel Jews Theory don't work?

    Hebrews 11:5-7KJV
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    Zechariah 13 below shows only 1/3 will be saved, 2/3 of ethnic Israel will be cutoff and die. This is in perfect agreement with "The Rest Were Blinded"


    Zechariah 13:8-9KJV
    8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord,
    two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
    9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
     
  16. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Walk through Rom 11 with me and follow the thought all the way through:

    Romans 11
    v 5: So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

    This is the 'elect' those Jews who become Christian, then, and now and join the Church. Or perhaps it's best to say the Church join the "Elect".
    v 7: What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened

    This is a direct reference to those who "were blinded" in your Hebrews passage.
    v 15: For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

    But here Paul gives us a clear expectation that those who 'rejected Christ'....those who are hardened, or blinded, will also 'accept' at some point. And it is expressed as a rhetorical question. We know that their acceptance is going to mean life from the dead! This is an End Times event.
    v 17: But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree

    Again, it very clearly walks us through how there are some Jews who have been 'broken off'...the 'blinded' ones.
    v 23: And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

    And again, a direct reference to those same ones being grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief.
    v: 25-26: Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved

    Paul finishes the passage by again telling us not to be proud in the face of National Israels "seeming" dismissal of God, and vise versa. He tells us it is but a "partial hardening" until the fullness of Gentiles has come in.

    I don't actually see every single Jew living at this time being saved. This is unrealistic...just like expecting every gentile now to come to Christ is unrealistic. But I truly do believe that this passage overwhelmingly supports a great number of Jews finding Jesus. Not in a different way, but in the same way everyone else does...for the forgiveness of sins.
     
  17. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Active Member

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    Once you understand "Israel" in verse 11:26 as representing the "Church" and the last soul to be saved, you'll be on track.

    You are correct in saying not all Jews/Israel will be saved, because they wont all be saved, only the 1/3 remnant will be saved by Jesus Christ and added to the Church, as Zechariah below clearly states.

    Zechariah 13:8-9KJV
    8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
    9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
     
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  18. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Why, after several Chapters of "Israel" meaning "Israel", would it then suddenly become "Church"? There would have to be something to suggest this, or tell us this, and as far as I can see, Paul does not indicate it at all. The usage remains the same.
     
  19. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Active Member

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    You fail to see the "Remnant Church"

    Elected to Salvation In Jesus Christ, By Forknowledge "Church"

    Naomi verse (7) is a very clear example, you see Ethnic National Israel Does Not Obtain, And The Elect Jew/Church Does Obtain, Simple, Very Clear.

    Romans 11:1-5KJV
    11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then?
    Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
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  20. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Thats Romans 11:15 , its implying that when the blindness is removed from those Jews who rejected Christ... And they are grafted back in.... Reserection! New heavens, new earth! Eternity here we come!
    Alleluia!
     
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