Revelation 12: 13-17 A Future Jewish Persecution

[חוכמה]

I think some Jews will continue to persecute Christians, like they did in Jesus’ times. Rome (which is secular people nowadays) and the modern day farizees will team up again. What happened with the farizees in taking scripture so literally that you can be lawayerlike in wriggling yourself out of it’s commandments by means of gematria or ‘revealed meaning’, this happens with Christian movements today.
I guess this happens when a religion is around for longer, things get twisted out of context and the spirit of the Law is done away with.

I stick with the words of the Father and Jesus, everything else like church, the Nicean council rules etc, I don’t busy myself with.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You don't understand.

The point was made that "a persecution greater than anything the world has ever seen is still ahead?" as a question. But "greater than anything the world has ever seen" is language of the "great tribulation." Borrowed, or stolen, or calling them equal--doesn't matter--that is not what the scriptures say (even if you too think so). To the contrary, that is a complete misrepresentation of what Christ referred to, saying the days would be "as the days of Noah"--which is actually what is written and what was to come.

"Persecutions" on the other hand, were to come here and there before various kings, synagogues, and leaders. Meaning, "a persecution greater than anything the world has ever seen is still ahead"--is pure hype.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I addressed the error of the best of those, that of assuming that what is written of "great tribulation" applied to "persecutions." Either way, he was wrong.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Sorry but Jesus is speaking of a future great ribulation despite you saying He didn'y.

It will be greater than anything the wor4ld has ever seen or will see. Just as Gods Word says.

 

[ScottA]

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Sorry but Jesus is speaking of a future great ribulation despite you saying He didn'y.

It will be greater than anything the wor4ld has ever seen or will see. Just as Gods Word says.

Yet again...you misunderstand.

The [actual] timing and context was given--but you are apparently blind to it. For He said "your flight"..and you have completely missed it.

Tell us then-- When was "their" flight? And when was your great grandfather's flight, and when is your's or your wife's--all the same" future" time?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yet again...you misunderstand.

The [actual] timing and context was given--but you are apparently blind to it. For He said "your flight"..and you have completely missed it.

Tell us then-- When was "their" flight? And when was your great grandfather's flight, and when is your's or your wife's--all the same" future" time?

Your lack of understanding basic English grammar is astounding!

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The "ye" or you is conditioned on the AOD standing in the holy place. It has yet to happen so it is still a future event. The flight of Jewes in the first century was when the Roman Legions laid siege to Jerusalem and the judgment pronounced in Matthrew 12 was ready to take place. That is found in Luke 22 and is different than teh fleeing in Matthew. 24.

As my relatives are Gentiles at least through the late 1700's, the fleeing does not pertain to us. we do not live in Israel.

 

[ScottA]

Your lack of understanding basic English grammar is astounding!

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The "ye" or you is conditioned on the AOD standing in the holy place. It has yet to happen so it is still a future event. The flight of Jewes in the first century was when the Roman Legions laid siege to Jerusalem and the judgment pronounced in Matthrew 12 was ready to take place. That is found in Luke 22 and is different than teh fleeing in Matthew. 24.

As my relatives are Gentiles at least through the late 1700's, the fleeing does not pertain to us. we do not live in Israel.

Why do you keep doing this to yourself!

You criticize me, then make a bunch of errors...even against you and your relatives.

You have totally misunderstood and incorrectly defined the abomination of desolation. And this you have done by the teachings of men, while Jesus Himself gave the correct interpretation. He was referring to Daniel 8:13:

Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”​

And He, Jesus, gave the time of "the host to be trampled underfoot", saying:

And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:24​

But--what--you also think that some pig or an enemy of God standing in the Temple of God, is more noteworthy than the Son of God standing condemned to death in the holy city, is therefore is more worthy to be prophesied 500 years before Christ and written of in the word of God?

Oh, and then you and your relatives-- Do you truly have no part in God prevails (Israel)?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why do you keep doing this to yourself!

You criticize me, then make a bunch of errors...even against you and your relatives.

You have totally misunderstood and incorrectly defined the abomination of desolation. And this you have done by the teachings of men, while Jesus Himself gave the correct interpretation. He was referring to Daniel 8:13:

Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

Doing what? correctly dividing the word of truth.

If you had read Daniel 8, you would have relaized it was talking about teh Grecian conquest and control of Israel. That is a thing of the past.

Jesus was referring to the Daniel 9 AOD:

6 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And if you were consistent with grammar you would realize Jesus did not speak of a past event but a future event still to come.

As for my relatives. None live in Jerusalem nor are any Jewsih so it doesn't apply to my family.

The abomination of desolation is what is called the antichrist- a person. Paul says he will enter the temple, declare himself to be god and cause the overspreading of abominations and will make desolate. That is a future temple which will be built.

And He, Jesus, gave the time of "the host to be trampled underfoot", saying:

And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:24

Wrong again. Failed exegesis and lousy eisegesis!

This statement refers
1. To he beginning of the times of the gentiles which began in 587 BC.
2. The Luke passage of the Olivet discourse for the most part refers to the 70AD judgment when Rome destroyed the temple and were led away captiv and since went into all nations.

3. The Assyrian, Babylonain, Medeo-Persian,Grecian captivities did not accomplish that!

But--what--you also think that some pig or an enemy of God standing in the Temple of God, is more noteworthy than the Son of God standing condemned to death in the holy city, is therefore is more worthy to be prophesied 500 years before Christ and written of in the word of God?

This is such an assinine statement. Gods Word both prophesied of Jesus dying and a future persecution of the jews. It is rampant through the prophets. Both are noteworthy for completely different reasons. It is not a question of wqorthiness, that is a straw man on your part, but each has its own soense of worth

 

[ScottA]

Doing what? correctly dividing the word of truth.

If you had read Daniel 8, you would have relaized it was talking about teh Grecian conquest and control of Israel. That is a thing of the past.

Jesus was referring to the Daniel 9 AOD:

6 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And if you were consistent with grammar you would realize Jesus did not speak of a past event but a future event still to come.

As for my relatives. None live in Jerusalem nor are any Jewsih so it doesn't apply to my family.

The abomination of desolation is what is called the antichrist- a person. Paul says he will enter the temple, declare himself to be god and cause the overspreading of abominations and will make desolate. That is a future temple which will be built.

Wrong again. Failed exegesis and lousy eisegesis!

This statement refers
1. To he beginning of the times of the gentiles which began in 587 BC.
2. The Luke passage of the Olivet discourse for the most part refers to the 70AD judgment when Rome destroyed the temple and were led away captiv and since went into all nations.

3. The Assyrian, Babylonain, Medeo-Persian,Grecian captivities did not accomplish that!

This is such an assinine statement. Gods Word both prophesied of Jesus dying and a future persecution of the jews. It is rampant through the prophets. Both are noteworthy for completely different reasons. It is not a question of wqorthiness, that is a straw man on your part, but each has its own soense of worth

What I wrote was not my part, but God's. Nor was it a discussion or debatable.