Revelation 12 walk through

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 1 - 21st Century King James Version

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, Unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because your faith groweth exceedingly...

www.biblegateway.com

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, Unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace unto you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth,

4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all persecutions and tribulations that ye endure,

5 which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.

6 For it is a righteous thing with God to recompense with tribulation those who trouble you;

7 and to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The stars falling to earth are most likely the parts a volcano has spit out of the earth. Rem, Jesus commanded John to write what He saw..What would John all a modern MISSLE. (a smart arrow, or just an arrow), John is speaking to the people of the first century. The stars fell to earth....and the sun and moon did not show their lights...because of the fires going on around the world????look at it as John would have seen it.

Boy, you got everything all wrong because of bad speculations. Since when did God's definition of stars as volcano rock bombs? Cant you read the Scripture and RECEIVE what God's WORD says?

Rev 1:20
(20) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Stars = messengers (not literal angels) of all (seven) congregations. Not some man-made weapons or mother nature's bombs.

 

[Bladerunner]

Boy, you got everything all wrong because of bad speculations. Since when did God's definition of stars as volcano rock bombs? Cant you read the Scripture and RECEIVE what God's WORD says?

Rev 1:20
(20) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Stars = messengers (not literal angels) of all (seven) congregations. Not some man-made weapons or mother nature's bombs.

I can read the words God gave John. "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" Rev 1:19.....did John really see stars falling from the sky...maybe;maybe not but the Mt. Vesuvius erupted in 79 AD. we all today know what the lava that is spit out of a volcano into the air only to fall like a star. We know what it is but did John. It is what John said He saw that I am agreeing with..

 

[TribulationSigns]

I can read the words God gave John. "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" Rev 1:19.....did John really see stars falling from the sky...maybe;maybe not but the Mt. Vesuvius erupted in 79 AD. we all today know what the lava that is spit out of a volcano into the air only to fall like a star. We know what it is but did John. It is what John said He saw that I am agreeing with..

Seriously?!

John was NOT sitting on Patmos watching a National Geographic documentary about Mount Vesuvius and thinking, “Ah yes, volcanic rocks… I shall call these ‘stars.’”

Revelation gives us its own interpretation. We don’t have to invent one. So God will NOT approve your speculation if you did not read carefully what Jesus explicitly told John what the stars represent;

“The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches.”
— Revelation 1:20

John didn’t need to guess, and neither do we. The Lord Himself explained the symbol. The angels are messenger of the congregations.

If the glorified Christ says the stars = messengers, then the stars = messengers.
Not pumice stones.
Not lava bombs.
Not a first-century fireworks show from Vesuvius.
Not even so called modern weapons.

Trying to squeeze a volcanic eruption into Revelation’s symbolism is just speculation dressed up as bad theology like Preterism! John wasn’t struggling to describe geological activity—he was recording a vision given by God, not a weather report from 79 AD.

So yes, John knew exactly what he was shown, because the Lord interpreted it for him and for us. . And if Jesus provides the definitions, we don’t get to rewrite the glossary.

 

[Bladerunner]

Seriously?!

John was NOT sitting on Patmos watching a National Geographic documentary about Mount Vesuvius and thinking, “Ah yes, volcanic rocks… I shall call these ‘stars.’”

Revelation gives us its own interpretation. We don’t have to invent one. So God will NOT approve your speculation if you did not read carefully what Jesus explicitly told John what the stars represent;



John didn’t need to guess, and neither do we. The Lord Himself explained the symbol. The angels are messenger of the congregations.

If the glorified Christ says the stars = messengers, then the stars = messengers.
Not pumice stones
Not lava bombs.
Not a first-century fireworks show from Vesuvius.
Not even so called modern weapons.

Trying to squeeze a volcanic eruption into Revelation’s symbolism is just speculation dressed up as bad theology like Preterism! John wasn’t struggling to describe geological activity—he was recording a vision given by God, not a weather report from 79 AD.

So yes, John knew exactly what he was shown, because the Lord interpreted it for him and for us. . And if Jesus provides the definitions, we don’t get to rewrite the glossary.

and wormwood was a star... The seven stars you speak of are different than the stars that fall from heaven...Remember the 1st heaven is our own sky, where the birds fly.......

 

[TribulationSigns]

and wormwood was a star... The seven stars you speak of are different than the stars that fall from heaven...Remember the 1st heaven is our own sky, where the birds fly.......

The book of Revelation is replete with imagery, symbols and monikers. For example, in in the cryptic symbology of scripture a mountain is used as a figure of a Kingdom. Or the stars are used as a figure of the messengers of the congregation. The question is WHICH messengers? The chosen Elect, or the false prophets and christs? Which ones that will bring the wormwood that poisons the water of gospel.

In Revelation, The Lord sees the star as the messenger of the Church as signified in Revelation 1-3. It is the pastor, leader, minister, messenger o the church, whom Christ addressed in Revelation chapter 2 and 3. The star has fallen from its first love.
Revelation 2:5

• "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

What was Christ's warning to this star? He said that as judgment, He would remove his candlestick (Church) out of its place. And he does so via the poison of wormwood. i.e., the spirit of antichrist in false prophets preaching false gospels.

So yes, the star fell because God is bringing judgment upon His unfaithful church and will now "Remove this Church" out of its place, as He promised! It is God's doing, as is the opening of the pit. But he uses man to bring this evil, this evil doesn't just drop out of the sky. Look at the language circumspectly.

Revelation 9:1

• "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

When the star (congregation) fell from heaven, He was given the keys of the abyss, just as the disciples were given the keys of the kingdom by Christ. There is no contradiction or inconsistency here. Just a fulfilling of the promise Christ made to the star of Ephesus. That if he didn't repent and remember from whence he had fallen, he would remove the star's Church out of its place. And that is where the wormwood comes in. Selah!

That is what is being pictured here. Nothing to do with literal stars, billions of light years away or some celestial created beings!

 

[Trekson]

I will walk through Revelation 12, explaining the verses. Follow along with your bible reading each verse as I explain the meaning thereof.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.
`
Revelation 12:7-9 after the 1260 days, there will be a war in the second heaven which Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth.

Revelation 12:10 the Jews at that time finally turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Satan will have been accusing them of their unbelief for the 1260 days that the Jews will mistakenly think the Antichrist is their messiah

Revelation 12:11 the Jews will overcome all Satan's accusations by believing upon the blood of the Lamb as atonement for their sins. And the Jews will testify about Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Even though many will be killed for their testimony.

Revelation 12:12 because Satan has been cast down to earth with just a short time left to his power, them in heaven rejoice about his coming demise. But to them on earth, Satan's wrath at being cast down will be the third woe to the inhabiters of earth as said in Revelation 8:13.

Revelation 12:13 Satan will take his wrath out on Israel and begin to persecute Israel.

Revelation 12:14 The Jews in Judea will flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation statue image set up and indwelt by Satan. There in the wilderness, the Jews will be protected for the remaining time/times/half time that Satan will have left.

Revelation 12:15 Satan will make attempts to destroy the Jews in their mountains sanctuary.

Revelation 12:16 But God will supernaturally thwart all attempts by Satan to persecute the Jews who had fled into the mountains.

Revelation 12:17 Satan, not able to get to the Jews in the mountains, will persecute the remaining Jews who did not flee to the mountains right away, as Jesus told them to do in Matthew 24:15-21. Those Jews who Satan will have access to persecute, Jesus will rescue when Jesus returns to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14.

Rev. 12:6 is a preview of Rev. 12:14 and vss. 7-13 are the events leading up to it. Rev. 12:17 is the church.

 

[Trekson]

and wormwood was a star... The seven stars you speak of are different than the stars that fall from heaven...Remember the 1st heaven is our own sky, where the birds fly.......

The only stars Christ calls angels are the individual pastors of the 7 churches. That def. not apply to any other star mentioned.

 

[Bladerunner]

The only stars Christ calls angels are the individual pastors of the 7 churches. That def. not apply to any other star mentioned.

a star falling would completely destroy the earth which we know that is a lie.....He knows the name of all the stars........Angels.

 

[Trekson]

a star falling would completely destroy the earth which we know that is a lie.....He knows the name of all the stars........Angels.

Just because the word "star" is used doesn't mean it's actually a star, just that is what it looked like John. More than likely they are a light falling from the sky that can be seen. It could be missiles, it could be a meteor shower. The one in Rev. 9:1 is the only one personified, and he probably looked like a falling star. The stars in Rev. 1:20 aren't actually angels, they are the pastors of those churches because they are the "messengers" of the gospel.

 

[Bladerunner]

Just because the word "star" is used doesn't mean it's actually a star, just that is what it looked like John. More than likely they are a light falling from the sky that can be seen. It could be missiles, it could be a meteor shower. The one in Rev. 9:1 is the only one personified, and he probably looked like a falling star. The stars in Rev. 1:20 aren't actually angels, they are the pastors of those churches because they are the "messengers" of the gospel.

Believe I stated I agreed earlier...a star from John point of view could very well have been a volcano , throwing flaming falling stars from heaven...An asteroid which is present could also be falling.....take you pick...the fact is it was not a star.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Believe I stated I agreed earlier...a star from John point of view could very well have been a volcano , throwing flaming falling stars from heaven...An asteroid which is present could also be falling.....take you pick...the fact is it was not a star.

Volcano... NO.
Flaming falling stars...NO
Asteroid...NO.

God has defined stars in Revelation as Greek, aggelos which actually means messengers. Not literal angels... or anything else. In Old Testament, the Hebrew for messengers is mal'ak. For example:

Jamess 2:25

• "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

Rahab received the messengers of Israel. She didn't receive the angels of Israel because that divinely inspired word is messengers. Just as it is in the other places where it is found. Now there are different kinds of messengers, but they are all still messengers. God is a messenger, Jesus is a messenger, and the Holy Spirit is a Messenger, but it doesn't change the word messenger. No matter how people insist on "injecting" a Greek word into the Hebrew text in the Old Testament concerning these messengers, it doesn't change the divinely inspired Hebrew word messenger into man's opinion of it being an angelic being. And this is the exact same word changed to angel elsewhere, illustrating once again that the word elsewhere means messenger. That doesn't mean a being like the Lord, with supernatural abilities, cannot be a messenger (since Christ is clearly called a messenger/angel), it means that Christ is a Messenger coming with a message for God's people. Thus calling God or Jesus an angel (as translators have done) is a misnomer. The very fact that they did this Proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that translations are not infallible and that they are wrong.

Now back to the book of Revelation... God is talking about messengers of the church here. In Revelation 8:10-11 and 9:1-2, the fallen star represents the unfaithful church as messenger who is responsible for loosening Satan from the Bottomless pit because of her unfaithfulness! Likewise...

Rev 6:12-13
(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This passage is describing judgment upon the congregation—the true spiritual body, the Church. To understand this, we must compare Scripture with Scripture. In Revelation 12, the woman is portrayed with the sun, moon, and stars, which represent the covenant people of God. This establishes that these celestial signs are symbolic, not literal.


The “heaven” here points to the kingdom of heaven—the visible congregation under God’s authority. The “stars” within this heaven represent those who claim identification with that kingdom. As such, their falling signifies judgment.


These stars are not faithful believers, but false prophets, false christs, and professing Christians who were never truly part of the elect. Their “fall” is their removal—God casting them out of the kingdom as an act of divine judgment.

This mirrors what occurred at the Cross, Revelation 12:4 (see below) when God brought judgment upon the Old Testament congregation, exposing and removing the unbelieving leadership and those who only outwardly identified as His people.

In the same way, Revelation 6 reveals a spiritual judgment in which God purifies His New Testament congregation by casting out all who merely profess faith but do not truly belong.

Rev 12:4
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

In this passage, the time in view is before Christ’s death, when the kingdom of heaven is identified with the Old Testament congregation—the corporate body of those under God’s covenant.

The “stars of heaven” represent the messengers within that congregation. This would include religious leaders such as the Pharisees, scribes, and all who professed to belong to God’s people outwardly.

The dragon’s action—drawing a third part of the stars and casting them to the earth—points to deception and spiritual. The "tail' signifies deception. This indicates that a portion of those identified with the congregation were led astray. The emphasis is not on literal stars, but on individuals within the covenant community.

At the same time, the distinction is important: not all are cast down. This implies that while many who merely professed faith fell because of unbelief, there remained a true body of believers who were not overcome.

Therefore, in Revelation, “stars” should not be understood as literal celestial objects, but as symbolic of messengers—those who represent or identify with the congregation. In some contexts, this can refer to leaders or teachers; in others, it may refer more broadly to the church itself as a witnessing body. Context determines the exact application, but the consistent theme is representation, not literalism.

 

[Trekson]

Volcano... NO.
Flaming falling stars...NO
Asteroid...NO.

God has defined stars in Revelation as Greek, aggelos which actually means messengers. Not literal angels... or anything else. In Old Testament, the Hebrew for messengers is mal'ak. For example:

Jamess 2:25

• "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

Rahab received the messengers of Israel. She didn't receive the angels of Israel because that divinely inspired word is messengers. Just as it is in the other places where it is found. Now there are different kinds of messengers, but they are all still messengers. God is a messenger, Jesus is a messenger, and the Holy Spirit is a Messenger, but it doesn't change the word messenger. No matter how people insist on "injecting" a Greek word into the Hebrew text in the Old Testament concerning these messengers, it doesn't change the divinely inspired Hebrew word messenger into man's opinion of it being an angelic being. And this is the exact same word changed to angel elsewhere, illustrating once again that the word elsewhere means messenger. That doesn't mean a being like the Lord, with supernatural abilities, cannot be a messenger (since Christ is clearly called a messenger/angel), it means that Christ is a Messenger coming with a message for God's people. Thus calling God or Jesus an angel (as translators have done) is a misnomer. The very fact that they did this Proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that translations are not infallible and that they are wrong.

Now back to the book of Revelation... God is talking about messengers of the church here. In Revelation 8:10-11 and 9:1-2, the fallen star represents the unfaithful church as messenger who is responsible for loosening Satan from the Bottomless pit because of her unfaithfulness! Likewise...

Rev 6:12-13
(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This passage is describing judgment upon the congregation—the true spiritual body, the Church. To understand this, we must compare Scripture with Scripture. In Revelation 12, the woman is portrayed with the sun, moon, and stars, which represent the covenant people of God. This establishes that these celestial signs are symbolic, not literal.


The “heaven” here points to the kingdom of heaven—the visible congregation under God’s authority. The “stars” within this heaven represent those who claim identification with that kingdom. As such, their falling signifies judgment.


These stars are not faithful believers, but false prophets, false christs, and professing Christians who were never truly part of the elect. Their “fall” is their removal—God casting them out of the kingdom as an act of divine judgment.

This mirrors what occurred at the Cross, Revelation 12:4 (see below) when God brought judgment upon the Old Testament congregation, exposing and removing the unbelieving leadership and those who only outwardly identified as His people.

In the same way, Revelation 6 reveals a spiritual judgment in which God purifies His New Testament congregation by casting out all who merely profess faith but do not truly belong.

Rev 12:4
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

In this passage, the time in view is before Christ’s death, when the kingdom of heaven is identified with the Old Testament congregation—the corporate body of those under God’s covenant.

The “stars of heaven” represent the messengers within that congregation. This would include religious leaders such as the Pharisees, scribes, and all who professed to belong to God’s people outwardly.

The dragon’s action—drawing a third part of the stars and casting them to the earth—points to deception and spiritual. The "tail' signifies deception. This indicates that a portion of those identified with the congregation were led astray. The emphasis is not on literal stars, but on individuals within the covenant community.

At the same time, the distinction is important: not all are cast down. This implies that while many who merely professed faith fell because of unbelief, there remained a true body of believers who were not overcome.

Therefore, in Revelation, “stars” should not be understood as literal celestial objects, but as symbolic of messengers—those who represent or identify with the congregation. In some contexts, this can refer to leaders or teachers; in others, it may refer more broadly to the church itself as a witnessing body. Context determines the exact application, but the consistent theme is representation, not literalism.

Yet most times a star is just a literal star or what looks like a literal star falling w/ no symbolism to it. Trying to define prophecy be depending on symbolism is an example of Alice going down the rabbit hole and spiraling into a world of a total loss of logic and sensiblity.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yet most times a star is just a literal star or what looks like a literal star falling w/ no symbolism to it.

Your claim is completely weak! And that’s the problem. You boldly say “most times a star is just a literal star,” yet you provide not a single verse to prove it. That is not Bible study—that is opinion dressed up as authority.

The book of Revelation does not leave “stars” up for your private interpretation. God already defined them:

• Revelation 1:20 — “the seven stars are the angels (messengers) of the seven churches.”

So Scripture itself tells you what stars represent. Yet you ignore that and replace it with your own unsupported claim. That is not just careless—it is a direct rejection of how God interprets His own Word.

And it doesn’t stop there:

• Daniel 8:10 — stars are cast down (clearly referring to people, not literal celestial objects)
• Genesis 37:9–10 — stars represent rulers

The biblical pattern is clear: stars are frequently symbolic of messengers, rulers, or authorities. You, however, offer nothing—no pattern, no verses, no support.

This is exactly what happens when someone lacks spiritual discernment. As written in 1 Corinthians 2:14, the natural man cannot understand spiritual things because they are spiritually discerned. You are trying to force a literal interpretation onto a symbolic book because you do not recognize how Scripture interprets itself.

Let’s be direct:
Until you can produce clear biblical evidence, your statement has zero authority. It is not truth—it is assumption.

If you want to handle Scripture correctly, then prove it from the Bible. Otherwise, stop making claims that Scripture itself does not support. That is your bad habit here lately!

Trying to define prophecy be depending on symbolism is an example of Alice going down the rabbit hole and spiraling into a world of a total loss of logic and sensiblity.

That statement exposes the real issue—you are not arguing from Scripture, you are mocking what you do not understand.

Comparing biblical interpretation to “Alice going down the rabbit hole” is not an argument—it is a distraction. It avoids the one thing you still have not done: prove your position from the Bible. This your weakness here!

The book of Revelation itself tells you it is communicated through signs (Revelation 1:1). So when you mock symbolism, you are not criticizing me—you are criticizing the very way God chose to reveal prophecy. Ouches!

Let that sink in.

God did not say, “interpret everything literally.” Instead, He repeatedly gives symbols and then interprets them:

• Revelation 1:20 — stars = messengers
• Revelation 17:12 — horns = powers

That is not “rabbit hole logic.” That is God’s method of teaching prophecy.

And this pattern did not start in Revelation:

• In Daniel, beasts represent kingdoms (Daniel 7)
• In Genesis 37, stars represent rulers

So your claim that relying on symbolism is a “loss of logic” completely collapses under Scripture. The truth is the opposite:

Rejecting symbolism in prophecy is what leads to confusion—because you are refusing to let the Bible define its own language.

This is not about intelligence or “logic.” It is about spiritual discernment. As written in 1 Corinthians 2:14, spiritual things must be spiritually discerned. When you reduce everything to a surface-level literal reading, you are stripping prophecy of the very meaning God placed in it.

Let’s be very clear:

You have not provided Scripture. (You need to work on this)
You have not addressed the verses given.
You have replaced biblical evidence with mockery. (Your bad habit)

That is not a defense of truth—it is an admission that you do not have one.

If you want to discuss prophecy seriously, then open the Bible and prove your claims. Until then, dismissing symbolism only shows that you do not understand how Scripture itself teaches prophecy.

Selah!

 

[Trekson]

Your claim is completely weak! And that’s the problem. You boldly say “most times a star is just a literal star,” yet you provide not a single verse to prove it. That is not Bible study—that is opinion dressed up as authority.

The book of Revelation does not leave “stars” up for your private interpretation. God already defined them:

• Revelation 1:20 — “the seven stars are the angels (messengers) of the seven churches.”

So Scripture itself tells you what stars represent. Yet you ignore that and replace it with your own unsupported claim. That is not just careless—it is a direct rejection of how God interprets His own Word.

And it doesn’t stop there:

• Daniel 8:10 — stars are cast down (clearly referring to people, not literal celestial objects)
• Genesis 37:9–10 — stars represent rulers

The biblical pattern is clear: stars are frequently symbolic of messengers, rulers, or authorities. You, however, offer nothing—no pattern, no verses, no support.

This is exactly what happens when someone lacks spiritual discernment. As written in 1 Corinthians 2:14, the natural man cannot understand spiritual things because they are spiritually discerned. You are trying to force a literal interpretation onto a symbolic book because you do not recognize how Scripture interprets itself.

Let’s be direct:
Until you can produce clear biblical evidence, your statement has zero authority. It is not truth—it is assumption.

If you want to handle Scripture correctly, then prove it from the Bible. Otherwise, stop making claims that Scripture itself does not support. That is your bad habit here lately!



That statement exposes the real issue—you are not arguing from Scripture, you are mocking what you do not understand.

Comparing biblical interpretation to “Alice going down the rabbit hole” is not an argument—it is a distraction. It avoids the one thing you still have not done: prove your position from the Bible. This your weakness here!

The book of Revelation itself tells you it is communicated through signs (Revelation 1:1). So when you mock symbolism, you are not criticizing me—you are criticizing the very way God chose to reveal prophecy. Ouches!

Let that sink in.

God did not say, “interpret everything literally.” Instead, He repeatedly gives symbols and then interprets them:

• Revelation 1:20 — stars = messengers
• Revelation 17:12 — horns = powers

That is not “rabbit hole logic.” That is God’s method of teaching prophecy.

And this pattern did not start in Revelation:

• In Daniel, beasts represent kingdoms (Daniel 7)
• In Genesis 37, stars represent rulers

So your claim that relying on symbolism is a “loss of logic” completely collapses under Scripture. The truth is the opposite:

Rejecting symbolism in prophecy is what leads to confusion—because you are refusing to let the Bible define its own language.

This is not about intelligence or “logic.” It is about spiritual discernment. As written in 1 Corinthians 2:14, spiritual things must be spiritually discerned. When you reduce everything to a surface-level literal reading, you are stripping prophecy of the very meaning God placed in it.

Let’s be very clear:

You have not provided Scripture. (You need to work on this)
You have not addressed the verses given.
You have replaced biblical evidence with mockery. (Your bad habit)

That is not a defense of truth—it is an admission that you do not have one.

If you want to discuss prophecy seriously, then open the Bible and prove your claims. Until then, dismissing symbolism only shows that you do not understand how Scripture itself teaches prophecy.

Selah!

The only one showing lack of discernment here is you. Rev. 1:20 = pastors, that's a fact, in Gen. 37, the stars are the children of Jacob and this echoed in Rev. 12:1. The bible does use symbolism but when it does, it usually explains them somewhere in the text. If one doesn't find an explanation then one should consider it literal, let's go back to Rev. 1: 20. Do you think every time the word candlestick is used, it's speaking about a church? I assure you, it is not! Rev. 1 is a good example, symbolism is used in vss. 12,16 and explained in vs. 20. The beast is described in Rev. 13, the beast is explained in Rev. 17. In Dan. 7, the beasts are explained as well. It should be so obvious that it shouldn't have to be explained by a scripture but the difference between the celestial body spoken of in Rev. 8;10 and Rev. 9:1 is "him" which is explaining that one time what that star like object is. If it doesn't explicitly tell you it is something different, the phrasing of 'stars falling from the skies" should considered a sight like nighttime missiles or a meteor shower and that's just the plain, simple truth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

If it doesn't explicitly tell you it is something different, the phrasing of 'stars falling from the skies" should considered a sight like nighttime missiles or a meteor shower and that's just the plain, simple truth.

You still don’t get it—and you keep repeating the same unsupported assumption as if saying it louder makes it true.

You claim, “if it doesn’t explicitly tell you otherwise, take it literally.” That is not a biblical rule. You just invented that. Now prove it—from Scripture. You won’t be able to.

The book of Revelation does not operate by your man-made rule. It tells you from the very beginning it is communicated through signs (Revelation 1:1). That means the burden is not on Scripture to “warn you” every time something is symbolic—the burden is on you to read it the way God said it was written.

And worse, you ignore the fact that God already defines symbols when He chooses to:

• Revelation 1:20 — stars = messengers
• Revelation 17:12 — horns = power

So your claim collapses immediately. Scripture does redefine imagery—and it expects you to pay attention to those patterns.

Now let’s deal with your “meteor shower” idea.

When Revelation describes stars falling to earth (Revelation 6:13), if you force that into literal astronomy, you create nonsense. Literal stars are larger than the earth itself. Even a single one falling would completely destroy the planet—not create a symbolic scene tied to judgment.

So what are you really doing? You are not being “plain and simple”—you are being selectively literal, ignoring both Scripture and basic reality just to protect your assumption.

The Bible already gave you the framework:

• Genesis 37 — stars represent rulers
• Daniel 8 — stars represent God’s people being cast down
• Revelation 1 — stars represent messengers

That is a consistent, scriptural pattern. You have yet to provide even one passage that establishes your “default literal” rule.

Let’s be blunt:

You are not interpreting Scripture—you are overriding it.
You are not using a biblical method—you are using assumption.
And when Scripture contradicts you, you ignore it.

That’s why you “don’t get it.”

Until you can actually prove your rule from the Bible, your argument has no foundation—just repetition.

You remain refuted!

 

[Trekson]

You still don’t get it—and you keep repeating the same unsupported assumption as if saying it louder makes it true.

You claim, “if it doesn’t explicitly tell you otherwise, take it literally.” That is not a biblical rule. You just invented that. Now prove it—from Scripture. You won’t be able to.

The book of Revelation does not operate by your man-made rule. It tells you from the very beginning it is communicated through signs (Revelation 1:1). That means the burden is not on Scripture to “warn you” every time something is symbolic—the burden is on you to read it the way God said it was written.

And worse, you ignore the fact that God already defines symbols when He chooses to:

• Revelation 1:20 — stars = messengers
• Revelation 17:12 — horns = power

So your claim collapses immediately. Scripture does redefine imagery—and it expects you to pay attention to those patterns.

Now let’s deal with your “meteor shower” idea.

When Revelation describes stars falling to earth (Revelation 6:13), if you force that into literal astronomy, you create nonsense. Literal stars are larger than the earth itself. Even a single one falling would completely destroy the planet—not create a symbolic scene tied to judgment.

So what are you really doing? You are not being “plain and simple”—you are being selectively literal, ignoring both Scripture and basic reality just to protect your assumption.

The Bible already gave you the framework:

• Genesis 37 — stars represent rulers
• Daniel 8 — stars represent God’s people being cast down
• Revelation 1 — stars represent messengers

That is a consistent, scriptural pattern. You have yet to provide even one passage that establishes your “default literal” rule.

Let’s be blunt:

You are not interpreting Scripture—you are overriding it.
You are not using a biblical method—you are using assumption.
And when Scripture contradicts you, you ignore it.

That’s why you “don’t get it.”

Until you can actually prove your rule from the Bible, your argument has no foundation—just repetition.

You remain refuted!

Okay, I see your confusion, the word 'signified" doesn't mean symbolized. It means "authenticated" like a "signet" ring or stamp would do. The word 'signified" is also used in Acts 11:28 - "And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar." You can see here that the use of this word has nothing to do w/ symbolism!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Okay, I see your confusion, the word 'signified" doesn't mean symbolized. It means "authenticated" like a "signet" ring or stamp would do. The word 'signified" is also used in Acts 11:28 - "And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar." You can see here that the use of this word has nothing to do w/ symbolism!

LOL… you just built an entire argument around a word I never even used in my previous post that you replied. That’s not clarification—that’s deflection.

Instead of dealing with the actual Scriptures I presented, you ran off chasing “signified” and tried to force a definition that doesn’t even address my point. That only shows you’re avoiding the real issue.

And appealing to Acts 11:28 doesn’t help your case. You’re assuming that because a word can be used in one way, it can never carry symbolic meaning in another context—especially in a highly symbolic book like Revelation. That’s a weak argument, and you know it... or probably not! :-)

At this point, it’s clear—you haven’t refuted anything I said biblically. You’ve just sidestepped it.

But go ahead… keep arguing with words I didn’t use. That should work out well.

 

[Trekson]

LOL… you just built an entire argument around a word I never even used in my previous post that you replied. That’s not clarification—that’s deflection.

Instead of dealing with the actual Scriptures I presented, you ran off chasing “signified” and tried to force a definition that doesn’t even address my point. That only shows you’re avoiding the real issue.

And appealing to Acts 11:28 doesn’t help your case. You’re assuming that because a word can be used in one way, it can never carry symbolic meaning in another context—especially in a highly symbolic book like Revelation. That’s a weak argument, and you know it... or probably not! :-)

At this point, it’s clear—you haven’t refuted anything I said biblically. You’ve just sidestepped it.

But go ahead… keep arguing with words I didn’t use. That should work out well.

You're the one that mentioned Rev. 1:1, your quote: "It tells you from the very beginning it is communicated through signs" (Revelation 1:1). The word "signs" isn't in Rev. 1:1, "signified" is and if you are reading a translation that has it in there, then that translation is wrong. Unless there is another word you were thinking of? When it comes to prophecy, many of the modern translations rewrote words, because their agenda was to make scripture sound closer to their eschatology. I went through 62 translations and I didn't see one that said "signs" but there was one, the EHV, whatever that is and it really messed that verse up. So what version are you using that says "signs'?

 

[TribulationSigns]

You're the one that mentioned Rev. 1:1, your quote: "It tells you from the very beginning it is communicated through signs" (Revelation 1:1). The word "signs" isn't in Rev. 1:1, "signified" is and if you are reading a translation that has it in there, then that translation is wrong.

You are still confused. I see that you do not make any sense with the word.

The Meaning of G4591 in Revelation 1:1:

• Primary sense:
  
  • “to make known, indicate, point out, or communicate clearly”
  • An actual revelation or message
• Usage here:
  • God is revealing or making known to John what is going to happen.
  • It’s like God is sending a sign or a message through His messenger.

Think of it like God signing a message with authority—“this is official, pay attention.”

Selah!