Revelation 20: 5&6

[PinSeeker]

I don't know what you mean by "woodenly".

I know. <smile> This should help: Many times, you'll hear a movie critic's review of a movie, and he/she will say, "this film is filled with wooden dialogue..." So, what we're talking about here, or at least I am, is ~ and really, no offense intended ~ is your wooden understandings of parts of Scripture. Now, I'll apologize to you for that, but again, no offense intended. It... Well, it just is what it is.

Either one believes God's Word as written, or they don't.

Right, but that's beside the point; we both "believe God's Word as written."

Now... I can understand if God has not given someone understanding in His Word, and that's why they don't believe what it says...

Right, this is the issue. Mostly, anyway.

They are blinded, and have not The Holy Spirit.

Unbelievers, sure. But not understanding parts of Scripture correctly or well does not necessarily indicate blindness or not having the Holy Spirit. Likewise, understanding Scripture well does not necessarily indicate blindness or not having the Holy Spirit. It is very possible to know all about Jesus, but still not know Jesus.

Oh... no, no, no.

<smile>

Understanding Revelation 21 that it is speaking literally, of a heavenly cube according to specific dimensions, is NOT limiting God or anything.

I mean, I agree with this, Davy. But the way you are doing it is the issue here. That's what's limiting to God. I would submit that your focus ~ rather than on a woodenly literal cube of exact dimensions ~ should be on the qualities and attributes of the cube and what that means in the greater context for the New Jerusalem, the New Heaven and New Earth, and God's people Israel.

...you have yet to study that in Ezekiel...

<chuckles>

...with the doctrines of men try to apply some mystical meaning to those making them non-physical.

Not doing that. Really, I'm not, Davy. It will surely not be "non-physical"... You continue to miss the point, even the greater reality ~ and literal-ness ~ and thus, remain of a wooden understanding what John is "seeing" in the vision given to him in Revelation 21...

I'm certain... you well know how I interpret that "rod of iron" and when it is for.

I have an idea, yes. <smile> But still, I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

You just don't care what God's Word says about it, because you'd rather believe a bunch of garbage from men's theories.

Pish.

Jesus made it easy to know when that "rod of iron" is for, and who it is for, per what He told the saints of the seven Churches in Revelation 2.

Okay, so it should be easy for you to enunciate and explain, in your own words, according to your own understanding. I mean it's not hard, and we may even agree, at least to some extent. Go ahead. I'm listening. <smile>

For one to try and claim that is happening now, today, means they disregard not just the simplicity of God's Word, but the simplicity of the English language also.

Interesting, I mean, I say the same sort of thing, except for two things:

1.) I would say "claim that it is not happening now, today"​

2.) I would not say 'disregard,' but rather 'misunderstand' or 'misapply.'​

And regarding number 1 there (including Psalm 2 and Jesus's ruling with a rod of iron), we have to divide that ~ or rather differentiate a dual reality of sorts, that it is now happening and that it is yet to occur in the ultimate, final sense. Now and not yet at the same time... which, you may or may not understand, but a real thing none the less.

And just to say again, Davy, it's not "Psalms 2." There's only one Psalm 2. Now, there are in fact 149 other Psalms... <smile> The same goes for "Revelations"... there's only one Revelation of John. So, likewise, it would not be "Revelations 2," or "Revelations 8," or "Revelations 17," or "Revelations 22," but rather Revelation 2, or Revelation 8, or Revelation 17, or Revelation 22. You see. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[PinSeeker]

A Premillinnial understanding of the future "thousand years" reign by Christ is for AFTER... His future 2nd coming, which means NOT of this present world time. How is it that you have not understood that as written in God's Word? Not only in Rev.20, but also in Zech.14, Isaiah 24:22, Psalms 2, etc.

Yes, Davy, I know this was in response to not me but @Luther7 ... But just because someone's understanding of something is to any degree different than yours does not necessarily mean they have not understood that something.

I'm not sure what @Luther7 really believes regarding the "thousand years." But let me ask you this, Davy. And this is a simple 'yes' or 'no' question... Is the simple reason... at least just regarding John's Revelation... that you are pre-millennial because you believe the events described in Revelation 20:1-6 to occur sequentially subsequent to (after) the events described in Revelation 19:11-21? If the answer is 'yes,' then... Well, you know, I'll stop there. Yes or no?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Fred J]

"after the tribulation of those days" implies what was previously mentioned. In a war, one can speak of several battles in the war, it doesn't mean the war is over, there are more battles to come. Likewise in Matthew, He specifically mentioned the Beginning of Sorrows, which has much tribulation. In Revelation 7; the multitude comes out of the GT, it doesn't mean it's over. I believe the last trumpet is #7 (Rev. 11:15) a parallel vantage point of (Rev.7:9); but the 7 Bowls of wrath are released at that time of the Rapture, which means it's not over yet.

The 'Great Tribulation' starts after anti-Christ fulfills the 'abomination of desolation' inside the Temple, prophesied by Prophet Daniel.

(Before that we also perceive that, anti-Christ will first make a peace treaty with Israel and allow them to rebuild their now 'third Temple'. And in the Temple they shall be allowed to resume all the priestly works according to the Law of Moses for a time, Then anti-Christ will violate that peace treaty, stop the priests from all their works in the Temple, and he'll take office as god in that Temple, which is the 'abomination of desolation')

Also before the Great Tribulation, the church shall be hated and persecuted worldwide and when the Gospel shall be preached to all nation for a witness, then shall the end come.

And the Great Tribulation period will be shortened for the 'flesh', especially for the church and Israel elect's sake.

Is when GOD pours out HIS wrath on the ungodly with anti-Christ and the false prophet in the age of darkness.

Immediately after the 'tribulation of those days', finally the powers that rule the sky for the order of the earth shall be shaken.

Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in the sky for the 'rapture' of the church saints, and all the nations shall witness this and mourn.

How about talking about the wars between the Kingdom of Light and kingdom of darkness after the 'rapture'?

 

[Fred J]

Right, I agree, but people mistake who makes up the Israel of God. That's been my point for several posts now.

Jacob and his 12 sons and their descendants make up the Israel of GOD, the 'seed' of Abraham in the flesh and by promise according to the Old and kingdom of man, on one side.

After Christ the 'actual seed' by the flesh and by promise to Abraham whom shall fulfill the everlasting covenant, through Him are the 'spiritual' children of GOD in the Kingdom of GOD.

They're no longer Israel or Gentile, but are one in Christ and the 'body of Christ', and named 'Christians', the future and everlasting 'seed' of Abraham.

At present by the Gospel, 'a remnant of them are saved under the election of grace and through faith', and still the rest of 'all Israel' are yet to be saved by the mercy of GOD in the end.

For the record, the 'root'(Christ) and 'tree'(word of GOD) support the 'branches'(Israel, who too failed GOD and dead like the Gentiles).

Not the other way around, who are the Israel of GOD which does not support the tree, and even to some of the 'branches' have been cut off??

Yes, it's His second coming, but this is the second resurrection. The first has already occurred, over the course of God's millennium, the "thousand years." And this is what we "see" in John's vision in Revelation 20:1-6. In that Matthew 24 passage, Fred, the angels do gather the elect, that's true, but it says nothing about the elect being the only ones resurrected. But yes, His elect will be gathered unto Him; they will be the ones who... successfully <smile> in the sense that they are in Christ <smile> ...come out of the tribulation. But there will be many present who... do not successfully come out of the tribulation, are not in Christ, and... <shudder> You will notice that in this Matthew 24 passage, it says all are present and they will see the Son of Man (Jesus of course) in His return, also. You remember Revelation 1:7, where we read, "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."

There is a passage where Paul talks about this very thing... in 1 Thessalonians 4, where he writes, "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." You know this passage, I'm sure, but releveant to what we're talking about here, Paul says there, "the dead in Christ will rise first." And very similar to the Matthew 24 passage above, the strong implication there is that the dead in Christ are not the only ones who will rise, but also, those dead not in Christ, but they will rise after the dead in Christ. And this takes us back to what Christ Himself says in John 5:28-29, that "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." So yes, He's coming for His church, in the sense that they will be the ones to "stand in the Judgment" (Psalm 1) and will subsequently enter into ~ stay for, actually <smile> ~ the New Heaven and New Earth, which will come down to us, as we see in Revelation 21, immediately after the final Judgment and the departure of those not in Christ.


This is true now. Who is your King, Fred? And we know that the binding of Satan is so that he cannot "deceive the nations," as John says in Revelation 20:3. You want proof that Satan is bound, I guess. Well, all you have to do is look around you ~ and maybe, like me, even yourself ~ to know that Satan is bound from deceiving the nations. Every single Gentile believer/Christian ~ I am one, and I would bet good money you are, too ~ is proof of Satan's binding. Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 12:29-29... He's speaking of Himself, of course, casting out demons, and of Satan as the "strong man"... "if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?"

Grace and peace to you, my friend.

So to your denominational believes, the third Temple, image of the beast, mark of the beast, first resurrection, anti-Christ and the false prophet cast into the lake of fire, satan bound in the bottomless pit, the Great Tribulation, already came to pass??

When by the world's historical account all this took place already, or is it by your denominational doctrine of the demon spiritual account the 'unseen' already took place??

For one from that 'twisted' account, by the Gospel those who repent from their sins and water baptized, they've died to Christ and resurrect a new creature, seemingly made it the 'first resurrection'.

Correct??

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The 'Great Tribulation' starts after anti-Christ fulfills the 'abomination of desolation' inside the Temple, prophesied by Prophet Daniel.

(Before that we also perceive that, anti-Christ will first make a peace treaty with Israel and allow them to rebuild their now 'third Temple'. And in the Temple they shall be allowed to resume all the priestly works according to the Law of Moses for a time, Then anti-Christ will violate that peace treaty, stop the priests from all their works in the Temple, and he'll take office as god in that Temple, which is the 'abomination of desolation')

Also before the Great Tribulation, the church shall be hated and persecuted worldwide and when the Gospel shall be preached to all nation for a witness, then shall the end come.

And the Great Tribulation period will be shortened for the 'flesh', especially for the church and Israel elect's sake.

Is when GOD pours out HIS wrath on the ungodly with anti-Christ and the false prophet in the age of darkness.

Immediately after the 'tribulation of those days', finally the powers that rule the sky for the order of the earth shall be shaken.

Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in the sky for the 'rapture' of the church saints, and all the nations shall witness this and mourn.

How about talking about the wars between the Kingdom of Light and kingdom of darkness after the 'rapture'?

I do not think theTemple will be built soon enough. Holy place means separate. Jerusalem was considered a holy place, separate and distinct from all other cities in the Bible. The Mosque itself is an abomination and stands in the Holy place where the Temple used go be. Abomination is what is detested by God. So a person detested God ( the Antichrist). Desolation means empty and/or destroyed. It could be when Jerusalem is attacked, then of course fleeing the city would be in order and the Antichrist stands in Jerusalem I am not sure- don't think anyone is with so many views.

 

[Luther7]

A Premillinnial understanding of the future "thousand years" reign by Christ is for AFTER... His future 2nd coming, which means NOT of this present world time. How is it that you have not understood that as written in God's Word? Not only in Rev.20, but also in Zech.14, Isaiah 24:22, Psalms 2, etc.

Because the day of the Lord, which is very prevelent in scripture, is the last day of this world, when all who are in the graves shall hear His voice. The resurrection of the last day is when Jesus comes in judgment and with a new heavens and earth.
These are the doctrines of the theologians, those having the mind of Christ, throughout church history. Many charlatans have come along in recent history with their talmudic inspired heresy, supporting an agenda that is not of God. It's that simple. One day it's all going to be out in the open like the carcasses in Isaiah 66.

 

[Davy]

I know. <smile> This should help: Many times, you'll hear a movie critic's review of a movie, and he/she will say, "this film is filled with wooden dialogue..." So, what we're talking about here, or at least I am, is ~ and really, no offense intended ~ is your wooden understandings of parts of Scripture. Now, I'll apologize to you for that, but again, no offense intended. It... Well, it just is what it is.

That still doesn't really explain it. I looked it up on the Internet, and its claim is one who is socially awkward and has no sense of humor. So really that also is just about as vague as an Eskimo in a snowstorm.

I am glad that I am not one of those type of preachers that thinks to tell jokes at the pulpit just to get the people's attention, prior to getting into the meat of God's Word. If brethren are not there to learn God's Word, then they should go somewhere else, where they can be 'Socially' aware, have a Party, and play games, instead of actually holding Church. I know I wouldn't be popular, and I don't care. The full wine of God's written Word is not that popular. I'd require each adult in Sunday School class to bring a notebook and pen to take notes to look up Scripture covered, like those at Berea did with Paul. Or at least make notes in the side margins of their Bible.

Right, but that's beside the point; we both "believe God's Word as written."

Nah... you're missing the point with that remark. What I referred to is how some folks even have a problem understanding simple English, and especially expressions, allegory, metaphor, etc., in English. God's Word uses a lot of metaphors, allegory, and expressions, but it's always about a literal Truth. That is what many just do not get, as it is written.

Unbelievers, sure. But not understanding parts of Scripture correctly or well does not necessarily indicate blindness or not having the Holy Spirit. Likewise, understanding Scripture well does not necessarily indicate blindness or not having the Holy Spirit. It is very possible to know all about Jesus, but still not know Jesus.

I disagree; mainly because I'm especially talking about simple parts of God's Word they do not understand nor do they have a clue as to its meaning, even though it is laid out to them in simplicity by direct statement. Lord Jesus showing in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation is one such example. It is 'simple' Scripture, easy to understand English, direct statements. Yet why do those who believe on a false Pre-trib Rapture theory reject it, AS WRITTEN? Explain that.

I mean, I agree with this, Davy. But the way you are doing it is the issue here. That's what's limiting to God. I would submit that your focus ~ rather than on a woodenly literal cube of exact dimensions ~ should be on the qualities and attributes of the cube and what that means in the greater context for the New Jerusalem, the New Heaven and New Earth, and God's people Israel.

Apparently, how you see Divine structure in GOD's Kingdom, and how I see it, is not the same. Too bad, because what I see is simply what is written. I can't help it if you do not believe what is actually written, and instead find that too limiting for your personal philosophy. And that is... the concept you are actually pushing, your own... personal philosophy over what is written in God's Word.

How long would it take to declare all the prophetic events written of in God's Word that before they happened some refused to believe it? If I just started with Sarah who laughed in doubting The LORD when He told her she would have a child in her old age, I'd have as many pages almost as in The Bible.

Not doing that. Really, I'm not, Davy. It will surely not be "non-physical"... You continue to miss the point, even the greater reality ~ and literal-ness ~ and thus, remain of a wooden understanding what John is "seeing" in the vision given to him in Revelation 21...

Aren't you an Amillennialist? They falsely believe the "thousand years" future reign by Lord Jesus and His elect of Revelation 20 only is meant in the spiritual sense, and not literal. So no, I have NOT missed the point, though I'm sure you wish that I have.

Revelation 20 is not the ONLY Bible Scripture that describes that future reign over all nations by Lord Jesus at His future 2nd coming.

I have an idea, yes. <smile> But still, I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

Pish.

Okay, so it should be easy for you to enunciate and explain, in your own words, according to your own understanding. I mean it's not hard, and we may even agree, at least to some extent. Go ahead. I'm listening. <smile>

Why listen to me, when you already have God's written Word that reveals what, who, and when that "rod of iron" is for? If you won't believe the actual Bible Scripture I showed about it, then you certainly won't believe me. So nice try in your attempt to see if I'll slip up explaining it further, like what the blind Pharisees tried to with Jesus. READ & HEED the written Bible Scripture about it!

Interesting, I mean, I say the same sort of thing, except for two things:

1.) I would say "claim that it is not happening now, today"​

2.) I would not say 'disregard,' but rather 'misunderstand' or 'misapply.'​

And regarding number 1 there (including Psalm 2 and Jesus's ruling with a rod of iron), we have to divide that ~ or rather differentiate a dual reality of sorts, that it is now happening and that it is yet to occur in the ultimate, final sense. Now and not yet at the same time... which, you may or may not understand, but a real thing none the less.

And just to say again, Davy, it's not "Psalms 2." There's only one Psalm 2. Now, there are in fact 149 other Psalms... <smile> The same goes for "Revelations"... there's only one Revelation of John. So, likewise, it would not be "Revelations 2," or "Revelations 8," or "Revelations 17," or "Revelations 22," but rather Revelation 2, or Revelation 8, or Revelation 17, or Revelation 22. You see. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

I don't know where... in the world you are getting that not "Psalms 2" or "Revelations 2", etc. Psalms 2 means the SECOND PSALM of the BOOK of PSALMS. Revelation 2 means the SECOND CHAPTER OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION.

You have definitely... LOST IT dude.

 

[Davy]

Because the day of the Lord, which is very prevelent in scripture, is the last day of this world, when all who are in the graves shall hear His voice. The resurrection of the last day is when Jesus comes in judgment and with a new heavens and earth.
These are the doctrines of the theologians, those having the mind of Christ, throughout church history. Many charlatans have come along in recent history with their talmudic inspired heresy, supporting an agenda that is not of God. It's that simple. One day it's all going to be out in the open like the carcasses in Isaiah 66.

Nah... you are adding suppositions to Church history.

The 1st century Church fathers and Apostles were all Pre-Millennialists. The doctrine of Amillennialism began in the 2nd century A.D., and didn't even become popular until Augustine pushed it around the 3rd century A.D. Augustine was guilty of 'spiritualizing', or making allegories out of literally meant events in God's Word. Origen and Clement of the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt got in trouble also for doing the same things.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jacob and his 12 sons and their descendants make up the Israel of GOD, the 'seed' of Abraham in the flesh and by promise according to the Old and kingdom of man, on one side.

After Christ the 'actual seed' by the flesh and by promise to Abraham whom shall fulfill the everlasting covenant, through Him are the 'spiritual' children of GOD in the Kingdom of GOD.

They're no longer Israel or Gentile, but are one in Christ and the 'body of Christ', and named 'Christians', the future and everlasting 'seed' of Abraham.

At present by the Gospel, 'a remnant of them are saved under the election of grace and through faith', and still the rest of 'all Israel' are yet to be saved by the mercy of GOD in the end.

For the record, the 'root'(Christ) and 'tree'(word of GOD) support the 'branches'(Israel, who too failed GOD and dead like the Gentiles).

Not the other way around, who are the Israel of GOD which does not support the tree, and even to some of the 'branches' have been cut off??

No need for any kind of lecture, Fred. I'm not here agreeing or disagreeing with you, but again, one of my main points was that many people mistake who really makes up the Israel of God.

So to your denominational believes...

Ohhhhh... boy... <smile>

...the third Temple, image of the beast, mark of the beast, first resurrection, anti-Christ and the false prophet cast into the lake of fire, satan bound in the bottomless pit, the Great Tribulation, already came to pass??

Hmm. Lumping all these things together in one question is problematic, Fred. Let's see... Okay, in order:

1. "the third Temple"
we are the temple (all those in Christ, Jew and Gentile alike), and are still to this day (in Paul's words in Ephesians 2) "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord... In Him (we) are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." So there is no "third temple," Fred, but the temple is currently being built (By God, of course). As such, then, no, it has not already come to pass, but... well, is coming to pass...

2. "image of the beast" "mark of the beast"

As John says in 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour." And, right now, Fred, there are still more to come...​

3. "first resurrection"

The answer to whether this has already come to pass depends on whether we refer to this collectively for all Christians or individually, The first resurrection is what Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 2 when he says to and of each one of us individually, "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." So, individually, if we are in Christ, then yes, the first resurrection has already come to pass. But collectively, not all who will be in Christ are yet in Christ, so in that sense it is still to this day coming to pass...​

4. "anti-Christ and the false prophet cast into the lake of fire"

No, this has not yet come to pass. <smile>​

5. "satan bound in the bottomless pit"

Yes, this has come to pass. <smile> As Jesus said in Matthew 12:28-29, "if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." Satan is the "strong man" here.​

6. "the Great Tribulation"

If you mean by asking 'has this come to pass?' has the tribulation ended, then I would say no, the period of tribulation has not ended... we are still today in the midst of it. As Jesus said to His disciples ~ and by extension to us ~ "In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). As for a "Great Tribulation"... <smile> ...I do believe there will be a final great tribulation, a time of tribulation "as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now" (Mark 13:19), so a great ramping up of tribulation near the very end, and that has not yet occurred. But, with regard to tribulation itself and the time of tribulation, it began a long time ago and has not yet ended. Life is hard, Fred. <smile> But, as James says, we can "count it all joy when (we) meet trials of various kinds, for (we) know that the testing of (our) faith produces steadfastness..." (and this will) have its full effect, that (we) may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (James 1:2-4). Which is what Jesus was saying, too, really, when He said, "take heart; I have overcome the world" (cited above).​

When by the world's historical account all this took place already, or is it by your denominational doctrine of the demon spiritual account the 'unseen' already took place??

Hm. See above.

For one from that 'twisted' account, by the Gospel those who repent from their sins and water baptized, they've died to Christ and resurrect a new creature, seemingly made it the 'first resurrection'.

Correct??

Weeeelllllllllllllllllllllllllll... <smile> Sort of yes, and sort of no... <smile> I mean... well, see above. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Fred.

 

[Davy]

I'm not sure what @Luther7 really believes regarding the "thousand years." But let me ask you this, Davy. And this is a simple 'yes' or 'no' question... Is the simple reason... at least just regarding John's Revelation... that you are pre-millennial because you believe the events described in Revelation 20:1-6 to occur sequentially subsequent to (after) the events described in Revelation 19:11-21? If the answer is 'yes,' then... Well, you know, I'll stop there. Yes or no?

I don't answer LOADED questions. If you want to only hear Yes or No answers that suit your particular 'personal philosophy', you'll have to ask elsewhere, as you're just not as sharp a tack as you think you are when dealing with me.

But I will say this though. Revelation 20 is NOT... the only Bible Scripture that gives examples of the events of Christ's future reign over the WICKED at His future 2nd coming, which means that time CANNOT be God's new heavens and new earth time, not with the wicked still existing. So all one need do to show GOD'S TRUTH against men's false theory of Amillennialism, is to show how the WICKED will STILL EXIST after Christ's future return!

 

[PinSeeker]

That still doesn't really explain it.

Well, maybe that's your fault, Davy. <smile> You asked what I mean by a "wooden understanding," and what I gave you was very sufficient. Yeah, a movie with wooden dialogue, meaning very shallow, and/or having no real depth or substance... superficial... we might call it "missing the forest for the trees," or something like that...

I looked it up on the Internet...

Uh oh. You know, the great thing about the internet is, you can find anything on it. But the terrible thing about the internet is, you can find anything on it. <smile>

...and its claim is one who is socially awkward and has no sense of humor.

Well that's one context, sure, but not what I meant. That 'wooden' adjective could be applied in several different contexts...

I am glad that I am not one of those type of preachers that thinks to tell jokes at the pulpit just to get the people's attention, prior to getting into the meat of God's Word. If brethren are not there to learn God's Word, then they should go somewhere else, where they can be 'Socially' aware, have a Party, and play games, instead of actually holding Church. I know I wouldn't be popular, and I don't care. The full wine of God's written Word is not that popular. I'd require each adult in Sunday School class to bring a notebook and pen to take notes to look up Scripture covered, like those at Berea did with Paul. Or at least make notes in the side margins of their Bible.

<chuckles> Well, more power to ya... <smile>

...some folks even have a problem understanding simple English, and especially expressions, allegory, metaphor, etc., in English. God's Word uses a lot of metaphors, allegory, and expressions, but it's always about a literal Truth. That is what many just do not get, as it is written.

Fine. Agree.

I disagree; mainly because I'm especially talking about simple parts of God's Word they do not understand nor do they have a clue as to its meaning, even though it is laid out to them in simplicity by direct statement. Lord Jesus showing in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation is one such example. It is 'simple' Scripture, easy to understand English, direct statements. Yet why do those who believe on a false Pre-trib Rapture theory reject it, AS WRITTEN? Explain that.

Fair enough. But I will still say that misunderstanding this or that in God's Word does not necessarily indicate salvation not having been given that person. I think it's okay to think that's a possibility, but we should be careful with that. We surely do not want to call unclean what God has made clean...

Apparently, how you see Divine structure in GOD's Kingdom, and how I see it, is not the same.

Maybe. And maybe not.

Too bad, because what I see is simply what is written.

Ah, well, I would say the same thing. Yes, what is written. I'm not saying you are doing this, Davy, but I would say neither one of us, while either of us may disagree on this or that with the other, should totally dismiss what the other says about this or that.

I can't help it if you do not believe what is actually written...

I... obviously do believe what is actually written. Unless you're referring to what you have "actually written"... <smile> But yes, God's Word is... well, inerrant and infallible... <smile>

, and instead find that too limiting for your personal philosophy.

LOL! No, God's Word is not "limiting" ... <chuckles> Although... I'm not even sure what you mean by that... <smile> At any rate, God's Word was certainly not what I was referring to as being limited, or limiting... <smile> "Too limiting for my personal philosophy?" Was does that even mean? LOL!

And that is... the concept you are actually pushing, your own... personal philosophy over what is written in God's Word.

Personal philosophy? I mean that doesn't even make sense, Davy. It just doesn't.

Aren't you an Amillennialist?

Yes. So for you, Davy, that should call into question, even for you personally, whether you really understand what amillennialists believe or advocate. Yeah, I mean, if you're going to disagree with something, then you owe it to yourself to have an accurate understanding with what that something actually is.

They falsely believe the "thousand years" future reign by Lord Jesus and His elect of Revelation 20 only is meant in the spiritual sense, and not literal.

See so this itself is false, in addition to the fact that the very premise of this question is false. That's... astounding. But that's what I'm sort of trying to get you to do, Davy, is to... well, reassess at least some of your assumptions... and/or presumptions...

So no, I have NOT missed the point...

You did. But thats okay. <smile>

Revelation 20 is not the ONLY Bible Scripture that describes that future reign over all nations by Lord Jesus at His future 2nd coming.

I mean, if you take out the word 'future,' then yes, you're very right. <smile> The New Testament is clear throughout that He is ~ not "will be," Davy, but is ~ King. Again I ask you ~ because you didn't answer, which actually may be answer enough ~ Who is your King? Who, Davy? Who, right now, is your King?

Why listen to me, when you already have God's written Word that reveals what, who, and when that "rod of iron" is for? If you won't believe the actual Bible Scripture I showed about it, then you certainly won't believe me.

Give it a try, Davy. <smile> All I ever asked for was... here, I'll do it again: In your own words, Davy, what you think this "rod of iron" is? It's not a "loaded question" in any way, shape, or form. Do you just refuse to answer? I mean, if so, then fair enough...

So nice try in your attempt to see if I'll slip up explaining it further...

Well, I'm not trying to do any such thing. But are you afraid of doing that, maybe?

Psalms 2 means the SECOND PSALM of the BOOK of PSALMS.

Now, yes, here, Davy, I'm kinda pokin' atcha... <smile> But there really is only one second Psalm. <smile> So, it's really not "Psalms 2," but rather Psalm 2. It's kind of a grammar faux pas, really, but hey, surely we can let this go. Surely. My goodness. <smile>

You have definitely... LOST IT dude.

LOL! Whaever, dude. <smile>

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above...

I don't answer LOADED questions. If you want to only hear Yes or No answers that suit your particular 'personal philosophy',

Okay, well, I don't ask loaded questions. I don't even know what that means. "Suit my particular personal philosophy"? Yeah, no idea. I asked you a yes or no question. It was what it was, and it is what it is. If you're, like, scared to answer it for some reason, then okay, fair enough.

...you're just not as sharp a tack as you think you are when dealing with me.

<chuckles> Whatever, man. Whatever.

But I will say this though. Revelation 20 is NOT... the only Bible Scripture that gives examples of the events of Christ's future reign over the WICKED at His future 2nd coming, which means that time CANNOT be God's new heavens and new earth time, not with the wicked still existing.

Davy, as an amillennialist, I will say this, that yes, nothing in Revelation 20 is concurrent with "God's new heavens and new earth time." If what you're suggesting at least in part here ~ again, it's quite discombobulated ~ is that amillennialists believe the wicked will still be present in eternity, with us in "God's new heavens and new earth time"... I mean that's just not the case at all; quite the opposite it true. So I say again, at least part of the problem is your misunderstanding even of amillennialism itself. And just regarding your statement here, there is a sense in which Christ will never reign over the "wicked," because the wicked were never, are not, and never will be a part of His Kingdom.

I'll ask this again, because you seem to have avoided answering this also: Do you believe the events described in Revelation 20:1-6 to be subsequent to, or after, chronologically, the events described in Revelation 19:11-21? Because that seems to be a large part, maybe most of, the problem...

So all one need do to show GOD'S TRUTH against men's false theory of Amillennialism, is to show how the WICKED will STILL EXIST after Christ's future return!

Well, the wicked will still exist, but they will not be here. They will not be here with us (and Jesus, of course) in the New Heaven and New Earth. They will have departed. As Jesus shows in His depiction of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:46, upon the Judgment, the wicked will "go away into eternal punishment."

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[Fred J]

No need for any kind of lecture, Fred. I'm not here agreeing or disagreeing with you, but again, one of my main points was that many people mistake who really makes up the Israel of God.

You're a mistake here, who copy and paste scripture to lecture us your false doctrine version opposed to GOD's Word, Jesus Christ.

1. "the third Temple"
we are the temple (all those in Christ, Jew and Gentile alike), and are still to this day (in Paul's words in Ephesians 2) "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord... In Him (we) are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." So there is no "third temple," Fred, but the temple is currently being built (By God, of course). As such, then, no, it has not already come to pass, but... well, is coming to pass...

That's again your false lecture, period

The scripture prophesied about world events as for the church's sign and time of His return and for us to be ready due season or off season.

Ant-Christ to son of perdition, first will make a peace treaty with Israel, and second, he will allow them to rebuild their third Temple.

Also third, he allows their priestly duties and ceremonial services according to the Law of Moses to take office once again for Israel.

(By this significant and glorious gesture, Israel shall be deceived that he's their long awaited messiah, who've delivered them from their enemies and brought peace to Israel)

But He'll break that peace treaty after some time and stop all the Temple proceedings from then on.

He will henceforth occupy the Temple and sit at the Most Holy Place as 'god', the 'abomination of desolation' that Prophet Daniel prophesied about.

(Apparently satan is around and he'll be the one who'll be inside anti-Christ the whole time. Only when Christ cast alive anti-Christ and the false prophet into the lake of fire, henceforth satan will be bound into the bottomless pit)

Therefore, where are you going to 'copy' and 'paste' this worldly signs and times for the church to your false denomination dogma??

2. "image of the beast" "mark of the beast"

As John says in 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour." And, right now, Fred, there are still more to come...​

'Many' are those who merely posses the 'spirit' of anti-Christ and have been there since the time of the Apostles.

And now it's in you and forth, until the real anti-Christ who's prevented at the moment shall appear in the world scene, once the preventer's out of the way.

Repent while you can who's deceived by heresy of heretics of the learned modern age, falsely haughty and wise in their own conceit.

3. "first resurrection"

The answer to whether this has already come to pass depends on whether we refer to this collectively for all Christians or individually, The first resurrection is what Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 2 when he says to and of each one of us individually, "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." So, individually, if we are in Christ, then yes, the first resurrection has already come to pass. But collectively, not all who will be in Christ are yet in Christ, so in that sense it is still to this day coming to pass...​

Heresy!

In the 'first resurrection' or 'rapture', the 'dead in Christ shall rise first', ...............................................

They include those who were 'beheaded' for their faith during the reign of anti-Christ with the false prophet in this world.

Meantime from the time of the Apostles and until now, for those who're truly in Christ die and buried, they're 'asleep' awaiting the 'first resurrection'.

Your 'vain' lecture pleases the 'itching ears' among us, but not the children of GOD Al-Mighty in Jesus name.

4. "anti-Christ and the false prophet cast into the lake of fire"

No, this has not yet come to pass. <smile>​

If people like you remain 'ignorant' and 'heart hardened' after hearing GOD's voice, finally will join them in the lake of fire as well.

And am not exempted as well in my ministering and witnessing GOD's Word, for like everyone am too have to workout my own salvation in fear and trembling.

5. "satan bound in the bottomless pit"

Yes, this has come to pass. <smile> As Jesus said in Matthew 12:28-29, "if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." Satan is the "strong man" here.​

You just 'buried' yourself in your own 'folly' words, figuratively speaking.

It's about 'binding' and 'casting out' demons or satan from a human body on earth since the Gospel and happening in churches until today.

These 'spirits' leave and goes into the wilderness here on earth without a dwelling, and liable to return back the same dwelling worst off.

(And 'satanic cults' until today in their proceedings and services, do meet 'satan' and 'demons' and communicate everyday and worshipped)

The written 'truth' and 'dogma' of the Holy Bible is the one that exposes 'counterfeits' and 'imposters' among us.

6. "the Great Tribulation"

If you mean by asking 'has this come to pass?' has the tribulation ended, then I would say no, the period of tribulation has not ended... we are still today in the midst of it. As Jesus said to His disciples ~ and by extension to us ~ "In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). As for a "Great Tribulation"... <smile> ...I do believe there will be a final great tribulation, a time of tribulation "as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now" (Mark 13:19), so a great ramping up of tribulation near the very end, and that has not yet occurred. But, with regard to tribulation itself and the time of tribulation, it began a long time ago and has not yet ended. Life is hard, Fred. <smile> But, as James says, we can "count it all joy when (we) meet trials of various kinds, for (we) know that the testing of (our) faith produces steadfastness..." (and this will) have its full effect, that (we) may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (James 1:2-4). Which is what Jesus was saying, too, really, when He said, "take heart; I have overcome the world" (cited above).​

Hm. See above.

Weeeelllllllllllllllllllllllllll... <smile> Sort of yes, and sort of no... <smile> I mean... well, see above. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Fred.

Seriously!

Stop 'flattering' yourselves 'blind guides' of the 'blind', won't you soon going to find yourselves in a ditch one day?

 

[PinSeeker]

You're a mistake here, who copy and paste scripture to lecture us your false doctrine version opposed to GOD's Word, Jesus Christ.

That's again your false lecture, period

The scripture prophesied about world events as for the church's sign and time of His return and for us to be ready due season or off season.

Ant-Christ to son of perdition, first will make a peace treaty with Israel, and second, he will allow them to rebuild their third Temple.

Also third, he allows their priestly duties and ceremonial services according to the Law of Moses to take office once again for Israel.

(By this significant and glorious gesture, Israel shall be deceived that he's their long awaited messiah, who've delivered them from their enemies and brought peace to Israel)

But He'll break that peace treaty after some time and stop all the Temple proceedings from then on.

He will henceforth occupy the Temple and sit at the Most Holy Place as 'god', the 'abomination of desolation' that Prophet Daniel prophesied about.

(Apparently satan is around and he'll be the one who'll be inside anti-Christ the whole time. Only when Christ cast alive anti-Christ and the false prophet into the lake of fire, henceforth satan will be bound into the bottomless pit)

Therefore, where are you going to 'copy' and 'paste' this worldly signs and times for the church to your false denomination dogma??

'Many' are those who merely posses the 'spirit' of anti-Christ and have been there since the time of the Apostles.

And now it's in you and forth, until the real anti-Christ who's prevented at the moment shall appear in the world scene, once the preventer's out of the way.

Repent while you can who's deceived by heresy of heretics of the learned modern age, falsely haughty and wise in their own conceit.

Heresy!

In the 'first resurrection' or 'rapture', the 'dead in Christ shall rise first', ...............................................

They include those who were 'beheaded' for their faith during the reign of anti-Christ with the false prophet in this world.

Meantime from the time of the Apostles and until now, for those who're truly in Christ die and buried, they're 'asleep' awaiting the 'first resurrection'.

Your 'vain' lecture pleases the 'itching ears' among us, but not the children of GOD Al-Mighty in Jesus name.

If people like you remain 'ignorant' and 'heart hardened' after hearing GOD's voice, finally will join them in the lake of fire as well.

And am not exempted as well in my ministering and witnessing GOD's Word, for like everyone am too have to workout my own salvation in fear and trembling.

You just 'buried' yourself in your own 'folly' words, figuratively speaking.

It's about 'binding' and 'casting out' demons or satan from a human body on earth since the Gospel and happening in churches until today.

These 'spirits' leave and goes into the wilderness here on earth without a dwelling, and liable to return back the same dwelling worst off.

(And 'satanic cults' until today in their proceedings and services, do meet 'satan' and 'demons' and communicate everyday and worshipped)

The written 'truth' and 'dogma' of the Holy Bible is the one that exposes 'counterfeits' and 'imposters' among us.

Seriously!

Stop 'flattering' yourselves 'blind guides' of the 'blind', won't you soon going to find yourselves in a ditch one day?

Grace and peace to you, Fred.

 

[Davy]

Well, maybe that's your fault, Davy. <smile> You asked what I mean by a "wooden understanding," and what I gave you was very sufficient. Yeah, a movie with wooden dialogue, meaning very shallow, and/or having no real depth or substance... superficial... we might call it "missing the forest for the trees," or something like that...


....


LOL! Whaever, dude. <smile>

Continued...

Well, you've gone off in La-La Land, so I see no reason to try and continue to have a sensible conversation with you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well, you've gone off in La-La Land....

You have no idea where I stand and are not even trying to ascertain what I really believe or understand. Or, actually, you may, but in that case twist what I believe and understand into absurdities. Either way, "you've gone off in La-La Land" is how you justfify yourself, apparently, every single time. Yeah, when one continually foists absurdities on the other, I guess this is what you finally have to do...

...I see no reason to try and continue...

I don't either; that we agree on.

... to have a sensible conversation with you.

Ah, well when you try to force unsensible things on the other person, then yes, it's impossible to have really any kind of conversation at all, but that's all you, my friend. And like I said, it's the case every time you get into these kinds of exchanges. You really owe it to yourself to do some self-reflection, Davy.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Luther7]

Nah... you are adding suppositions to Church history.

The 1st century Church fathers and Apostles were all Pre-Millennialists. The doctrine of Amillennialism began in the 2nd century A.D., and didn't even become popular until Augustine pushed it around the 3rd century A.D. Augustine was guilty of 'spiritualizing', or making allegories out of literally meant events in God's Word. Origen and Clement of the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt got in trouble also for doing the same things.

The Bible is a spiritual book. How does God communicate spiritual things with His people? Through parables, allegory and metaphors.

For example, literal events in the Old Testament foreshadowed the spiritual reality of salvation. The exodus is a good literal read, but the spiritual takeaway trumps the historical account.

When seven thousand men refused to kneel to baal, there may have literally been exactly seven thousand men, but the spiritual reality of how God uses the number one thousand and seven brings it all home. Just a few of thousands of examples, many of which I'm sure I have not yet seen.

The number " thousand " can typify the "fullness" of whatever thing is in view. " Seven thousand" is the perfect fullness of God's remnant that will never serve Satan.

Romans 11: 4- 7:
But what is God's reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too then, at this present time, there is also a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now Israel as a nation of people will reject Christ right up until it's too late when He comes ( soon) for judgment. But there are the elect or chosen jews and Gentiles that have obtained eternal life. This is what is meant by " ALL ISRAEL". All of the nation of Israel won't be saved because God says right here that it's only a remnant. It can't be both. And that would mean that God has two plans of salvation, one where He saves individuals and one where He saves a whole nation at once. Nowhere is that zany idea found. But you will find it in the talmud.

Oh, my point is that the early church fathers had it right. They were the closest to the line of the disciples of Christ. It was the influence of the Pharisees that started to lead away many followers of Jesus. Jesus never talked about coming back to this current earth for the benefit of those who crucified Him, and neither did His disciples. Martha didn't say that her brother will rise again after the " millennial kingdom ".

It's spiritual language. In 2 Peter 3, a day with the Lord is as a " thousand years", and a " thousand years" as one day. This simply means that the "complete fullness" of time in God's perspective different than ours, and this is How He chose to describe it.

Even worldly musicians understood this. Take David Bowie's song " Golden years". In this song he sings " stick with you baby for a thousand years, nothing's going to touch you in this golden yeeeeeaaaarrrs...."

So David Bowie is saying " look, I'm going to stay with you as long as there is time, in it's complete fullness". It's not hard to understand. Really.

 

[Davy]

The Bible is a spiritual book. How does God communicate spiritual things with His people? Through parables, allegory and metaphors.

The Bible is NOT... a 'spiritual' book. It is The TRUTH. And Christianity is NOT... a religion, it is The TRUTH.

So FOR EXAMPLE, man CANNOT try and treat The Bible like man's poetry, man's philosophy, man's religion, NOR man's THEORIES on what is spiritual.

For example, literal events in the Old Testament foreshadowed the spiritual reality of salvation. The exodus is a good literal read, but the spiritual takeaway trumps the historical account.

What is "spiritual reality of salvation"? Those are just MAN'S TERMINOLOGY. It reveals nothing about one's understanding of The Word of God, The Bible.

The "spiritual takeaway" does what? What "spiritual takeaway"? All you are doing is regurgitating what MAN's carnal mind tries to do with God's TRUTH instead of actually UNDERSTANDING God's TRUTH in His Word.

Thus man's Amill theories are just that, MAN'S THEORIES on what he THINKS is spiritual. And such idiocy relies... on that word 'spiritual' as a pivot word to attempt to JUSTIFY CHANGING what is actually written in The Word of God! It is so obvious what those men are doing to butcher The written Word of God with their spiritualization philosophy that it is sickening.

Isa 2:22
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
KJV

I'll say it again, Origen (c.185-c.254) of the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt was excommunicated by the early Church for SPIRITUALIZING events meant literally in The Word of God. WHERE do you think he got that practice from in his day? From all the pagan ideology that surrounded him in Alexandria, Egypt back in that time, especially from the Greek philosophers. Even Apostle Paul was familiar with the Greek philosophers and their philosophy (Acts 17). Clement had the same problem.

Here's you another example of man's calling an idea in The Bible a 'spiritual' item. Ever heard the New Testament term "sin nature"? That term is not written in The Bible. It instead was coined by men's doctrines to try and replace understanding about the 'flesh' and its relation to sin, per Bible Chapters like Romans 7. A larger category description of the idea is the word 'humanism', like what does it mean to be human? The whole purpose is to make vague the understanding of what sin is, and how it is caused by our flesh in this present world.

But here... is what is actually 'spiritual' - the difference between this material earthly dimension in contrast to the heavenly dimension made up of Spirit. Like Jesus said in John 3, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. So when Apostle Paul spoke of a law that is spiritual and good in contrast with a law found in his fleshy members, that is the same idea Jesus had shown in John 3. But because that other dimension of Spirit exists, does that mean it's OK to change... the literal events written in The Word of God? Absolutely not!

Thus, like the pagans, all you are doing with your spiritual idea is just going around in circles, never getting anywhere.

 

[Luther7]

The Bible is NOT... a 'spiritual' book. It is The TRUTH. And Christianity is NOT... a religion, it is The TRUTH.

So FOR EXAMPLE, man CANNOT try and treat The Bible like man's poetry, man's philosophy, man's religion, NOR man's THEORIES on what is spiritual.



What is "spiritual reality of salvation"? Those are just MAN'S TERMINOLOGY. It reveals nothing about one's understanding of The Word of God, The Bible.

The "spiritual takeaway" does what? What "spiritual takeaway"? All you are doing is regurgitating what MAN's carnal mind tries to do with God's TRUTH instead of actually UNDERSTANDING God's TRUTH in His Word.

Thus man's Amill theories are just that, MAN'S THEORIES on what he THINKS is spiritual. And such idiocy relies... on that word 'spiritual' as a pivot word to attempt to JUSTIFY CHANGING what is actually written in The Word of God! It is so obvious what those men are doing to butcher The written Word of God with their spiritualization philosophy that it is sickening.

Isa 2:22
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
KJV

I'll say it again, Origen (c.185-c.254) of the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt was excommunicated by the early Church for SPIRITUALIZING events meant literally in The Word of God. WHERE do you think he got that practice from in his day? From all the pagan ideology that surrounded him in Alexandria, Egypt back in that time, especially from the Greek philosophers. Even Apostle Paul was familiar with the Greek philosophers and their philosophy (Acts 17). Clement had the same problem.

Here's you another example of man's calling an idea in The Bible a 'spiritual' item. Ever heard the New Testament term "sin nature"? That term is not written in The Bible. It instead was coined by men's doctrines to try and replace understanding about the 'flesh' and its relation to sin, per Bible Chapters like Romans 7. A larger category description of the idea is the word 'humanism', like what does it mean to be human? The whole purpose is to make vague the understanding of what sin is, and how it is caused by our flesh in this present world.

But here... is what is actually 'spiritual' - the difference between this material earthly dimension in contrast to the heavenly dimension made up of Spirit. Like Jesus said in John 3, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. So when Apostle Paul spoke of a law that is spiritual and good in contrast with a law found in his fleshy members, that is the same idea Jesus had shown in John 3. But because that other dimension of Spirit exists, does that mean it's OK to change... the literal events written in The Word of God? Absolutely not!

Thus, like the pagans, all you are doing with your spiritual idea is just going around in circles, never getting anywhere.

Davy. I'm a Christian. You don't know me personally, but you can see all the posts I have made. They glorify Jesus Christ. They speak of His mercy toward us, and His righteous judgement to come. I get into specifics based solely on the word of God.

When I say that God's Word is spiritual, that's what the Bible teaches. God opens our eyes ( a spiritual term) to see all of His goodness, His thoughts towards us.

You said: "And such idiocy relies... on that word 'spiritual' as a pivot word to attempt to JUSTIFY CHANGING what is actually written in The Word of God! "

What's written is written. We will either stay on the surface with a hermeneutic that the world deems " sensical" or accepted in their eyes, or search for the deeper spiritual meaning. This is what God tells us:

1 Corinthians 2:4-15:

4 "And my message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 in order that your faith might not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Spiritual Wisdom
6 However, we speak wisdom among those that are mature, but not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are being destroyed. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the wisdom having been hidden, which God foreordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age understood (for had they understood, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory). 9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
nor have entered into the heart of man,
that which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we did not receive the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, in order that we might know the things freely given to us by God; 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught in human wisdom, but in words taught by the Holy Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is discerned by no man."


The world grovels at the audacity of someone looking for "something other than the text will provide". Pastors love to reason this way because quite frankly, we live in a day where most of them do not have the Holy Spirit. They are charlatans, preaching a gospel on someone else's behalf.

We know that no scripture is of private interpretation. So, as believers, we come together and search out a matter. That's what the early Church fathers did.

 

[Davy]

Davy. I'm a Christian. You don't know me personally, but you can see all the posts I have made. They glorify Jesus Christ. They speak of His mercy toward us, and His righteous judgement to come. I get into specifics based solely on the word of God.

When I say that God's Word is spiritual, that's what the Bible teaches. God opens our eyes ( a spiritual term) to see all of His goodness, His thoughts towards us.

I understand what you 'think' you are feeling. But spirituality is not it. What you are feeling from God in His Word is His TRUTH. That is actually what we all... are looking for, that is, those of us on a spiritual journey that want to know why we are here, and what our duty is ordained for each one of us.

Yet Satan's host well understand what you're feeling also, and they know how to use it against you, deceiving your mind. But knowing the Truth is different, because armed with God's Truth one cannot be deceived. That is why Lord Jesus said to those Jews who believed on Him, that if they continued in His Word, they would be His disciples, and they would know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH would make them free (John 8:31-32).

But the concept of 'spirituality' is a vague concept; it can mean different things for different people. A vague concept can be used to hide the TRUTH. The Truth instead is certain, specific, cannot be changed by man's concepts, and is the same for everyone. Can we say that about one who 'claims'... to be spiritual? No, of course not.

This is why I say that Christianity is NOT a religion, because the concept of religion is actually men's philosophy, and can include many such vague concepts that steer from the Truth. Christianity instead, is about The TRUTH. That is why Lord Jesus said staying in His Word means one will know The TRUTH, not become 'spiritual'. And that it is that TRUTH that makes us free, even in our spirit.