Revelation 3:10

[Christina]

True Christians don't have anything to worry about during either tribulation. It's the foolish virgins without enough oil that will need to worry.

True:)

 

[Tombstone]

"This letter is not written to all Assemblies, just to this one. Remember, subject and object."-- Using that reasoning then the letters to the Romans, Ephesians, Hebrews, Thessalonians, etc. should be read the same way.

 

[gervais]

Tombstone2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. There is a difference between the Churches addressed by Paul and the Assemblies addressed in Revelation, what is it?

 

[Tombstone]

True. We know who specifically Paul was talking to.We have no idea who the churches are in Revelation.I am still waiting for someone to explain why that message wouldn't be or isn't for ALL true believers at the end of times who follow Jesus with the same level of sincerity and commitment.Your description implies that even though many true believers the world over will keep God's law in their heart to the same degree described in that scripture, only the members of that church will be spared what is coming. (And yes, I understand that while a billion might call themselves 'Christians,' calling themselves such does not automatically make it so.)In Rev 3:20 when he is speaking to the church at Leodicea, does "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and each with them and them with me".... not apply to all seekers of Jesus? I have seen that scripture used to witness to non-Christians to get them to give their lives to Jesus. I have also seen it used to encourage new or wayward Christians to seek Jesus on a deeper level. Your own words say that is wrong because the message is saved only for the members of the church of Leodicea.The person who witnessed to me and helped me come to the Lord used that very scripture among others. Are you saying he was wrong because I am not a member of the church of Leodicea....or does that mean because I have claimed that scripture that I am now?Are you saying that Rev. 3:15-22 doesn't apply to all God's true believers but only to the members of the church of Leodicea?I have participated in more than a few seminars on Revelation. There to learn, not to instruct. I have also read many personal studies on Revelation.Why so many? Because so many people disagree on it. Scholars. Ministers. Divinity school instructors. True Christians. Quasi-Christians. Many have different opinions on sections of Revelation so I continue to study and seek.Forgive me if a stranger on one of many Christian Bullletin boards who is light on details doesn't hold much sway.I am opened to being enlightened. But a three-word question in response is hardly helpful in taking you seriously.

 

[Christina]

Lets look at this from a different angle why is this description of the churches written in Rev.? The book who's title alone means to unveil or reveal ...The book covers a long period of time but at its heart it tells us about the End of this age and then tells us of the future New Heaven and earth .... Re1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant JohnSo why include the Seven churches here ? It defies common sense to assume as some this is just talking about 7 ancient churches long ago gone into history as the verse above obviously disproves this idea ... So we must conclude The reason they are included here is the message given to these churches ... but what are these churches today? ..Who do we apply this message to ? IMHO these are to be seen as types of churches/believers that will/do exist today in this End time. This is after all the subject of the book ... So I do think it does cover all assemblies and types of believers today in the whole of the 7 churches ... Then it breaks it down further and address's each type of church/believers in more detail of each ones own teachings. Its here in the detailed verse's the subject and object then narrows down to each indivual church/believer type. Only two of the churches God is pleased with Smyrna and Philadelphia ... So if you belong to a church/or are of the belief of these two churches,God is pleased with you Then he goes on to detail other types of church/beliefs he is pleased with some of their doctrines that they have/teach and is displeased with others ... He doesn't say these people in other churches are not saved he just tells us what he is pleased and displeased with .....What they have right and wrong .... Is this not true today ? We can look at our churches/believers and see they have some things right and some wrong .... Now it would seem obvious here if we are wanting to please God we must be learning what truth is taught in the church's of Philadelphia and Smyrna and I think gevais post on Rev.3(post #17) goes toward the heart of that truth that was being taught in Phiadelphia ....

 

[gervais]

TombstoneThe difference is that the Pauline Epistles were written to the Churches in the Dispensation of Grace where Revelation is written to the Assemblies during the Dispensation of Judgment

 

[Jordan]

TombstoneThe difference is that the Pauline Epistles were written to the Churches in the Dispensation of Grace where Revelation is written to the Assemblies during the Dispensation of Judgment

You do realize that the Dispensation of Judgment won't come until the Dispensation of Grace is over... We are still in the the Dispensation of Grace.It won't come until the 7th Trumpet where Christ comes again at the Second Coming and the Millennium Reign is where the Dispensation of Judgment come from...

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

After the Thousand years is when Judgement comes in. It's the very last thing before a new heaven and new earth. There was another Scripture that says something about Followers of Christ are Judged now, so we wont be judged later. The WTJ for believers is where we get our rewards. I don't understand why we have the Thousand years,, but we're gonna. (I'm impatient about that, it's kinda like,, Aww Man! A Thousand more years!??)

 

[HammerStone]

WhiteKnuckle, the millennium is there so that all will have a chance to know Christ.

Revelation 20:2-8And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

So you see that the firstfruits are the priests. Not only are priests expected to minister to God, but they are expected to teach the Word. This will be the millennium, a time of the greatest teaching ever known to man in anticipation of the final deceit and rebellion of Satan.For more information on that, I refer you to Ezekiel 40-48 which talk about the millennium and how it will be.

 

[gervais]

You do realize that the Dispensation of Judgment won't come until the Dispensation of Grace is over... We are still in the the Dispensation of Grace.It won't come until the 7th Trumpet where Christ comes again at the Second Coming and the Millennium Reign is where the Dispensation of Judgment come from...

If you read the “Sunteleia” and “Telos” study again (http://www.christianityboard.com/showthread.php?t=11168) you will see that the Suntelia, end of the age, comes sometime before the END (Christ’s return). I believe this is what is called, The Night of the Lord.” Remember, the day begins at sundown, the night comes before dawn. The end of the age, Dispensation of Grace and beginning of Dispensation of Judgment, begins at sundown or the night of the Lord.

 

[Christina]

[quote name='WhiteKnuckle;72785]After the Thousand years is when Judgement comes in. It's the very last thing before a new heaven and new earth. There was another Scripture that says something about Followers of Christ are Judged now' date=' so we wont be judged later. The WTJ for believers is where we get our rewards. I don't understand why we have the Thousand years,, but we're gonna. (I'm impatient about that, it's kinda like,, Aww Man! A Thousand more years!??)[/QUOTE'] Well the good news is we are not in flesh bodies but our spiritual incoruptable bodies 1 Cor. 15 ... secondly Satan is bound for 1000 years and Christ will be ruling as King of Kings right here on earth ... lastley the millieum is a time for teaching ...All those who overcome unto the End following Christ faithfully instead of antichrist ...do not have to be judged again ... All those who are worthy but went astray or never heard the truth because they were mislead or some other reason will be taught then they are tested again when Satan is loosed after the thousand years. God is always fair

 

[armourbeaer]

in[/I] the hour of temptation not take us 'out' or away from it.

 

[Tombstone]

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." - Rev. 3:10[quote name='armourbeaer;73011]There is something you are failing to see here. The word 'from' is not a verb' date=' it's a preposition. It doesn't represent 'an action,' i.e. to take away. "From the hour of temptation" is a prepositional phrase and a prepositional phrases doesn't have a verb.Edited to add: So it is saying God will keep us [I']in[/I] the hour of temptation not take us 'out' or away from it.[/QUOTE]I have to question your, "So it is saying God will keep us in the hour of temptation not take us 'out' or away from it." assertation.The scripture appears to say just the opposite.No one said the word "from" is being used as a verb. I would challenge anyone to try to use the word 'from' as a verb under any circumstances.I am not sure where you came up with that. The word "from" means "apart." It means "seperation." The phrase, "From then to now" means the seperation time between then and now.In the phrase "To take from," the word "from" addresses a location not an action.The last part of the scripture says, "...that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." I would like to hear someone explain how God is going to keep Christians "from the hour of testing" that will "test those who dwell on the earth"...while keeping Christians here on the earth. The simple question is, how will Christians be seperated here on earth from the testing that is going to test all those "who dwell on the earth."

 

[Christina]

Tombstone let me ask you a question How did God keep the hebrews from the angel of death in Egypt as written in Exodus ? He tells us there is nothing knew under the sun (that what happened before will happen again) in type if not literal. God will keep us safe but he never says he is going to fly anyone away anywhere Just the same way the hebrews marked their doorposts with the Lambs blood when the plagues came upon the egyptians we are to Mark our door posts of out hearts with the blood of the true Lamb ...i.e. trust in him ..not a doctrine of men.. We are told we will be put on trail .. We are not to premeditate what we say as God will speak through us (think Penecost here) we are also told some may jailed for a period of ten days ... People really do not understand what God tells us this tribulation is ... We are so bombared with the hollywood version and lies related to the Rapture doctrine we think it a time of mass killing and chaos... Satan wants your soul not your life ... To be absent from the body is to present with the Lord ..Why on earth then would he want us dead? Satan (A.C.) wants us to worship him as God ...Not kill us. The truth of tribulationhttp://biblestudy.madmooseforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=260

 

[armourbeaer]

- Rev. 3:10I have to question your, "So it is saying God will keep us in the hour of temptation not take us 'out' or away from it." assertation.The scripture appears to say just the opposite.No one said the word "from" is being used as a verb. I would challenge anyone to try to use the word 'from' as a verb under any circumstances.I am not sure where you came up with that. The word "from" means "apart." It means "seperation." The phrase, "From then to now" means the seperation time between then and now.In the phrase "To take from," the word "from" addresses a location not an action.The last part of the scripture says, "...that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." I would like to hear someone explain how God is going to keep Christians "from the hour of testing" that will "test those who dwell on the earth"...while keeping Christians here on the earth. The simple question is, how will Christians be seperated here on earth from the testing that is going to test all those "who dwell on the earth."

The word "from" means "apart." It means "seperation." The phrase, "From then to now" means the seperation time between then and now.In the phrase "To take from," the word "from" addresses a location not an action.

Vincen'ts Word Studies:From(ek). The preposition implies, not a keeping from temptation, but a keeping in temptation, as the result of which they shall be delivered out of its power. Compare John xvii. 15. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

I would like to hear someone explain how God is going to keep Christians "from the hour of testing" that will "test those who dwell on the earth"...while keeping Christians here on the earth. The simple question is, how will Christians be seperated here on earth from the testing that is going to test all those "who dwell on the earth

The same way He protected the Hebrews from the plagues and the death angel, the 3 children in the firey furnace, Noah on the ark, and Daniel in the lions den.Is anything to hard for God?

 

[Tombstone]

Again, I am not saying anyone is being taken anywhere.And yes, absolutely, God can keep Christians seperate from the trials that will come from that time. But the scripture doesn't say that is how it will be so. It doesn't say that we will be segregated from the others here on earth. That is the reader's assumption.He could do as he did with Lot or Noah and 'remove' them 'from' the environment that was to be altogether destroyed. But how would that work with the current Christians here on earth? No reference is made to it.He could do as he did with Enoch, but no one here wants to entertain that thought, even though, depending on how you read the scripture, that could be a possibility. I was hoping that someone would pick up on the fact that God is talking to the Church of Philadelphia in Rev. 3:10 and the discussion in another link was that it applied to only members of that specific church and not all Christians. Apparently that is no longer the case. It would seem now, from the replies to my last post, that ALL Christians fall into the category of the Church of Philadelphia, no?And yes, whenever someone mentions 1Thess 1:9-10 where it is said, "...and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath"...this brings claims of misreading and correction being found in 2 Thess.But note it says Jesus is coming and He is coming to save us from the coming wrath. If God is already present here on earth in the form of the Holy Spirit and that spirit will keep us here on earth and keep us physically seperate from the wrath that will occur on earth, why would Jesus need to return to save us from the coming wrath?

 

[armourbeaer]

I am at a loss here as to what you mean when you say Christians will be segregated from the others? Would you please explain that more. Thanks..

I was hoping that someone would pick up on the fact that God is talking to the Church of Philadelphia in Rev. 3:10 and the discussion in another link was that it applied to only members of that specific church and not all Christians. Apparently that is no longer the case.

Well, I think it applies to any believer now who will have kept the word of His *patience.Because the word *patience #5281 is hupomone and has the meaning of tarrying and or waiting patiently to the end.

And yes, whenever someone mentions 1Thess 1:9-10 where it is said, "...and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath"...this brings claims of misreading and correction being found in 2 Thess.

Would you elaborate where in 2 Thess you think these verses were corrected. Thanks...

 

[Christina]

I also don't know where you are getting the idea we are segregated from anyone .... The church in Rev, are types of believers today, for example lets say you believed and understood what was taught in the church of Philadelphia and I did not ...you would be of that type of believer/a member of that church ... We are not told we are separated only that we will not take the mark of the beast so God will provide and keep us ... We will be called up to testify (Mark 13) Mar 13:11But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Gho we will be a whiteness for Christ

Rev 2:10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. We will have the two wittiness's to guide us they are a candle in the darkness God never leaves us without a light to follow This again goes to fact that many of the bad things that occur are before the tribulation starts they happen to all of us ... When The tribulation starts things will become better The deadly wound is healed Antichrist comes peacefully and prosperously He will promising you great things he wants you soul he will try to win it with flattery's and lying wonders the first part will be a great peaceful time ... When they say peace and safety destruction comes ..... There are in a sense two tribulation the first is Antichrists (this is the 5th-6th trump) this Antichrist trying to win souls from God Mar 13:24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, The second tribulation so to speak after Antichrists(Satans) is Christ tribulation or God wrath upon the wicked ....NOT BELIEVERSThis is the 7th trump and yes then things get bad but not for us ... .... I seriously doubt the 7th trump (Christ wrath upon Satan) will last more than 1 hour .... perhaps less When Christ arrives we are all changed in our incoruptable bodies in the twinkling of an eye ....(1 Cor.15)

 

[Martin W.]

[quote name='Tombstone;73030]Again' date=' I am not saying anyone is being taken anywhere.And yes, absolutely, God can keep Christians seperate from the trials that will come from that time. But the scripture doesn't say that is how it will be so. It doesn't say that we will be segregated from the others here on earth. That is the reader's assumption.He could do as he did with Lot or Noah and 'remove' them 'from' the environment that was to be altogether destroyed. But how would that work with the current Christians here on earth? No reference is made to it.He could do as he did with Enoch, but no one here wants to entertain that thought, even though, depending on how you read the scripture, that could be a possibility. I was hoping that someone would pick up on the fact that God is talking to the Church of Philadelphia in Rev. 3:10 and the discussion in another link was that it applied to only members of that specific church and not all Christians. Apparently that is no longer the case. It would seem now, from the replies to my last post, that ALL Christians fall into the category of the Church of Philadelphia, no?And yes, whenever someone mentions 1Thess 1:9-10 where it is said, "...and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath"...this brings claims of misreading and correction being found in 2 Thess.But note it says Jesus is coming and He is coming to save us from the coming wrath. If God is already present here on earth in the form of the Holy Spirit and that spirit will keep us here on earth and keep us physically seperate from the wrath that will occur on earth, why would Jesus need to return to save us from the coming wrath?[/QUOTE']Finally we are getting a few folks who know how to question and debate theological issues. Thank you Tombstone.Martin W.

 

[Martin W.]

[quote name='Polar;69785]"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance' date=' I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." -- Rev. 3:10-- You don't think this means you miss out on the Tribulation? .[/QUOTE']Yes , I think we miss out on the (Great) tribulation.The great tribulation is designed to shake up "the world" , not to punish Christ's living church members. What would be the point anyway? The Christian is not destined for wrath, quite the opposite , he is saved from it. Now and at the judgment.ThanksMartin W.