Revelation 3:10

[Christina]

Martain there is only one Wrath its Gods at the 7th trump the last trump and your right its not against believers its against Satan and his ..It has little to do with believers ... But it does not occur untill the very End after the tribulation you seem to mixing up Gods wrath against Satan and his with the tribulation of Antichrist they are not the same thing .... Mar 13:24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, The second tribulation so to speak after Antichrists(Satans) is Christ tribulation or God wrath upon the wicked ....NOT BELIEVERSSatan wont be wrathful toward us he is trying to win our souls by lies and flattery in fact he's told he can only harm those without the seal of God Rev 9:4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads The tribulation and Gods wrath are two differnt things they might even be thought of as two tribulations the first being the delusion of lies of Antichrist (Satan) upon men The second (God Wrath) being at the second coming at the end the last 7th trump it is only directed at Satan (Antichrist) and his followers We are not the subject of Gods wrath ....We are the subject of Antichrist Satan lies and flattery's the great delusion of the tribulation ... You fight this delusion by knowing Gods truth of what will happen so you do not fall for Satans lies ....Knowing that this man of sin will come first to deceive the world

 

[Martin W.]

Denver , I take this approach:==God is not sending an ark for us==God is not going to part The Red Sea for us==God has not told us to apply lambs blood to our doorframes==God is not putting us in a fiery furnace like DanielInstead , he has a different plan to preserve his living Christians in the end times. We are not told exactly how.However there are hints and specific verses where he tells us that some time in the future living Christians will be translated and meet the Lord in the air . If the Lord has decided this translation of living Christians is to happen before the great tribulation, then it is possible we will be kept from the hour of testing by this method. If this translation of living Christians happens at the end of the tribulation , that would mean God has planned a different method of preserving his church and keeping it from the hour . (And has told us absolutely nothing about it.)We must remember this meeting of the Lord in the air is not the same event as when Jesus comes to stand on the Mount of Olives. That comes later. (Many people confuse the two).I have never been able to understand why some folks are so dead set against the possibility that Jesus Christ may decide to translate his church members before the great tribulation.Best regardsMartin

 

[Martin W.]

You do realize that the Dispensation of Judgment won't come until the Dispensation of Grace is over... We are still in the the Dispensation of Grace. ...

Exactly. But what signals the end of the Dispensation of Grace ? Could it be possible Jesus removes his church (and grace) before the judgment?Or do you think the church remains on earth but grace has ended ? Remember the church does not exist without grace.For this reason many scholars tend to allow for the possibility that the church has been removed before the wrath.If the church has been removed the endtime scripture tends to flow along to its conclusion. If the church remains we end up hitting these little roadblocks.Best regardsMartin W.

 

[Martin W.]

It won't come until the 7th Trumpet where Christ comes again at the Second Coming and the Millennium Reign is where the Dispensation of Judgment come from...

Hi again JordanYou will not be able to find the church anywhere during the trumpets. All of mankind is accounted for but the church is absent. Another one of those little roadblocks we run into if we try to keep the church here to the end.Give me an minute or two and I will start a separate thread on just this subject. Many thanksMartinEDIT: here is the link for the thread "searching for the church" during the trumpets: http://www.christianityboard.com/showthread.php?p=73050#post73050

 

[armourbeaer]

[quote name='Martin W.;73048]Hi again JordanYou will not be able to find the church anywhere during the trumpets. All of mankind is accounted for but the church is absent. Another one of those little roadblocks we run into if we try to keep the church here to the end.Give me an minute or two and I will start a separate thread on just this subject. Many thanksMartinEDIT: here is the link for the thread "searching for the church" during the trumpets: http://www.christianityboard.com/showthread.php?p=73050#post73050[/QUOTE]

You will not be able to find the church anywhere during the trumpets. All of mankind is accounted for but the church is absent.

Then what would you call a 'saint'...or don't you consider a 'saint' a member of the 'church?'Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven' date=' saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast 18 And the nations were angry, [B']and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;[/B] and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.Rev. 13:6 And he (antichrist)opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.7 And it was given unto him (antichrist) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.Rev. 14:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

 

[HammerStone]

Instead , he has a different plan to preserve his living Christians in the end times. We are not told exactly how.

That's exactly the opposite of what he (Christ) said. I think it's pretty easy to find the church, personally.

Mark 13:20-And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

The last part is the obvious rebuttal to the notion that things are hidden and that we don't know what is going down. Jesus the Christ said it himself, I told you everything. The question is do we all listen?Even the notion that we aren't perfect and can't know everything about the Bible runs into issue here. The problem with that logic is that Christ gave account up until his coming -- for the entire period. The alone lets us know someone will be here. We quickly discover that the elect (mentioned elsewhere by Paul as members of the church) are here and can (if it were possible) be deceived.Just as Brother Armour posted above, the saints are present.

==God is not sending an ark for us==God is not going to part The Red Sea for us==God has not told us to apply lambs blood to our doorframes==God is not putting us in a fiery furnace like Daniel

Fair enough, but God has constantly given us types Nebuchadnezzar for the AntiChrist, the Passover Lamb for Christ, the fiery furnace for trials and tribulations and on and on. It's very clear that whether you believe Revelation to be literal or metaphorical, there are some relatively obvious parallels.

Revelation 9:18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

For sake of time and reading, I won't quote the other 25+ references to fire in the book, many of which deal directly with judgment and the plight of man.

Revelation 12:11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We better know how the blood of the Lamb figures into the endtimes. Yes, God does not command us to post it on the door, but he does tell us know the Scriptures in the very first verses in Revelation. He tells us in Mark, "I've told you everything." Just as the first passover was told to use the blood of the lamb on the physical door, we're told to use the blood of the Lamb who told us about this entire event.As for an ark, we don't need an Ark to save us, as Daniel's story about the furnace illustrates. God came to them. As Jesus tells in the Luke 21 chapter that talks about the return of Christ:

Luke 21:8But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

As for the miracle of parting the sea, Revelation is full of miracles and statements of protection against terror. The two witnesses, the sun darkening, and many, many others.So there are very clear types here, and the very clear message is that those who God protects don't have to be removed from the scene.

We must remember this meeting of the Lord in the air is not the same event as when Jesus comes to stand on the Mount of Olives. That comes later. (Many people confuse the two).

And here we have agreement. There is no need to confuse the two. Christ clearly says he comes once, and the believers are caught up at the last trump. I wrote a Bible study on this because it's easy enough to follow the timeline and ignore the distractions of men about raptures and missing people.http://www.christianityboard.com/showthread.php?t=9402

 

[Glenn]

those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads [/B] So to be protected we must have the seal of God in our foreheads which is what? The exodus is our type for the tribulation the Old tstament is the New testament concealed ..The new testament is the Old Testament revealed they both say the the same things one is our example of the other ....

Isn't the context of the mark linked with the tribes that the 144,000 are called out from? no partaking Gentile is even referenced. The complete status of the One New Man in Christ would seem to be doctrinaly opposite (2Tim 1:15, Acts 21:20-27.) of these Jewish assemblies in Asia ; those seven have a link to the troubles Israel faced in her past history, and it would only make sense in the climax of the 70 weeks that these thing would come into play for Daniels people. Glen,

 

[Christina]

Its all in understanding how Gods word interrupts who the the Whole house of Israel is The whole house of Israel is currently divided When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD the so called ten lost tribes (which resided in Northern Israel) went over the Caucasus Mountains into Scotland, Ireland, Britain and eventually across Europe and migrated to America ....They are the Christian Nations of today .. The two southern tribes known by the largest tribe were called Judah they went into Egypt for many years then eventually migrated to Europe but they stayed Jewish ... The new testament in prophecy most always refers to Judah (today's Jews) and Israel (christians, 10 lost tribes) as two separate groups .... When ever prophecy talks of the Whole house of Israel as in the 144,000. It is made up of Jew, Christian,gentile The two house's are not rejoined until the End. Pay attention to the fact Judah and Israel are most always spoken of as separate. They are called sticks in Eze. the sticks are separate but Christ will rejoin them Eze. 37 11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Israel through Joseph' s sons Ephraim an Mannash became the Christian nations Judah stayed Jews they preserve the Law .... The two sticks will be rejoined into the Entire House of Israel This is an entire study on its own and is backed by history and written in the scripture in many ways and many times from Genesis to Revelation.... If your interested on getting a good handle on this there's a great little book that will even help you understand who the U.S. is in scripture ... http://reluctant-messenger.com/judahs_sceptre_101.htm

 

[Glenn]

11[/B]Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Israel through Joseph' s sons Ephraim an Mannash became the Christian nations Judah stayed Jews they preserve the Law .... The two sticks will be rejoined into the Entire House of Israel This is an entire study on its own and is backed by history and written in the scripture in many ways and many times from Genesis to Revelation.... If your interested on getting a good handle on this there's a great little book that will even help you understand who the U.S. is in scripture ...http://reluctant-messenger.com/judahs_sceptre_101.htm

This is a teaching I would repectfully disagree with, I find partaking Gentiles told to Rejoice with Gods people Romans 15:10 Duet 32:43, I find loruhamah, and loammi Hosea 1:6-9 (the house of Israel) sitting in darkness among the Gentiles the foolish nation that God used to produce the fruit of the kingdom, instead of the apostate house of Judah. the lost sheep of the house of Israel were not my people, without mercy until Christ came to regather them.Acts 2:7-And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans. Matthew 4:14-That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying,15-The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 16-The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death is sprung up. Jesus being from the tribe of Judah represented the true apostle of the house of Judah not Judas, the rest were from the lost sheep of the house of Israel that foolish nation that sat in darkness Matt 15:24-But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, they were chosen to be His disciples to witness to the people not anyone from the house of Judah except Himself. Acts 13:30-but god raised Him from the dead: 31-And He was seen many days of them which came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses unto the people. Saul didn't qaulify for that ministery he was not present from the beginning which was part of the requirments and he wasn't from galilee, he was called to be a witness of the Abrahamic covenant of grace through faith for all the sons of adam which was outside the national law covenant and promises being dealt with by the twelve concerning the restoration of the kingdom to Israel which is when the two sticks will become one after the resurrection EZ 37! with Christ sitting on His davidic throne Matthew 25:31. But back to the context of who was called from where shows it is from the tribes not the just anyone from any nation in Revelations. The One New Man called before the foundation has neither Jew or Gentile, male or female literaly; it is seated and blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places not a partaking Gentile of Israels spiritual things waiting His coming within the prophetic kingdom promised since the foundation Matt 25:24, which is the climax and target of Revelations to bring in the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31, Hebrews 8, Romans 11:26-27 on the earth after Joel 3. Glen.

 

[Christina]

are not all these which speak Galilaeans[/U]. Matthew 4:14-That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying,15-The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 16-The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death is sprung up. Jesus being from the tribe of Judah represented the true apostle of the house of Judah not Judas, the rest were from the lost sheep of the house of Israel that foolish nation that sat in darkness Matt 15:24-But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, they were chosen to be His disciples to witness to the people not anyone from the house of Judah except Himself. Acts 13:30-but god raised Him from the dead: 31-And He was seen many days of them which came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses unto the people. Saul didn't qaulify for that ministery he was not present from the beginning which was part of the requirments and he wasn't from galilee, he was called to be a witness of the Abrahamic covenant of grace through faith for all the sons of adam which was outside the national law covenant and promises being dealt with by the twelve concerning the restoration of the kingdom to Israel which is when the two sticks will become one after the resurrection EZ 37! with Christ sitting on His davidic throne Matthew 25:31. But back to the context of who was called from where shows it is from the tribes not the just anyone from any nation in Revelations. The One New Man called before the foundation has neither Jew or Gentile, male or female literaly; it is seated and blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places not a partaking Gentile of Israels spiritual things waiting His coming within the prophetic kingdom promised since the foundation Matt 25:24, which is the climax and target of Revelations to bring in the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31, Hebrews 8, Romans 11:26-27 on the earth after Joel 3. Glen.

Well while you are of course free to believe what ever you like you are missing the forest through the trees IMHO Yes God divorced Israel (10 northern tribes of Jews) because of their adultery he will retake them as part of his bride Then said God, Call his name LoammiLoammi: that is, Not my people for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 110 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. 11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hsa 2:1 Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi; and to your sisters, Ruhamah. http://www.christianityboard.com/st...INK/lconc/2HYPERLINK/lcomm/2HYPERLINK/lcomm/2http://www.christianityboard.com/l vrsn/2HYPERLINKHYPERLINKHYPERLINK#dict/2Now Notice an important fact here LOAMMI names means = not my people but God changes his name here to AMMI which means =of my people Abraham was told he would be father of Many Nations not a single Nation. We have a whole section on this topic one can not understand prophecy if we do get who is whom straight but Ill leave you to your own belief check out histoy herehttp://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usfeatures/stoneofscone/index.html

 

[Glenn]

LoammiLoammi: that is, Not my people[/B] for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 110 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. 11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hsa 2:1 Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi; and to your sisters, Ruhamah. Now Notice an important fact here LOAMMI names means = not my people but God changes his name here to AMMI which means =of my people Abraham was told he would be father of Many Nations not a single Nation. We have a whole section on this topic one can not understand prophecy if we do get who is whom straight but Ill leave you to your own belief check out histoy herehttp://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usfeatures/stoneofscone/index.html

Context doesn't show any where a partaking Gentile being addressed as being anything other than that, a partaker of the blessings of Israel promises.Paul remarks in Romans 11:5-that there was a remnant according to the election of grace that the Gentiles were made partakers with, never is it implied that they are the house of Israel that Paul also states those that were blinded had stumbled but not to point that they would fall verse 11.Romans 11:26-28, shows that they are not replaced by the Gentiles, unlong with the clear implications of Joel 3 shows your senario is your theory.Plus the doctrinal context of those seven Asians assemblies shows there all related to the teaching of James and the elders at Jerusalem Acts 21 makes its plain as day as to what they believed zealous of the law, those from Asia speaking against Paul wanting to kill him, those that had forsaken Pauls message of faith without the works of the law where from those Asian Jewish assemblies not the ONE! new man the heavenly body of Christ your trying to force into this spiritual Israel idea taking part in Jacobs trouble found inregards to Daniels people who are still the same people. Glen.

 

[Christina]

Who said anything about replacement ??????????????? I do not buy any replacement theory nor am I talking replacement If I led you to believe other wise I apologize No one was ever replaced anyone ..I am saying The Jews in 70 A.D. were divided into two groups 10 tribes went north became Christians forgot who they are but God knows who they are .... 2 tribes remained and stayed with their Jewish faith. We are both together the whole house of Israel ...But because we had different fates/destintys to follow God needed away to distinguish Christian from Jew in prophecy so he calls Christians Ephriam/Manasseh or Israel and the Jews today Judah...gentiles are grafted in ... I'm not talking replacement at all I am saying we are the Ten lost tribes .. (represent new covenant/good news)Jews today are just the two tribes of Judah /Benjamin and few Levites .... (represent old covenant/preserve the law )Together we are Whole Israel all 12 tribes and this is represented by the two sticks one branch broken in two that Christ will reunite as one after Christ returns ....All 12 tribes will be rejoined under Christ thus the church/bride 144,000 are all Jew and Christian rejoined into one the 12 tribes of the whole house of Israel

 

[Boston]

[quote name='Polar;69785]"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance' date=' I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." -- Rev. 3:10-- You don't think this means you miss out on the Tribulation?Fine. Then what does it mean? [/QUOTE']I believe it means just what it says: I also will keep you from the hour of testing, (temptation.) I would say, either by delivering, or strengthening us, so we may not be overcome. 2 Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

 

[whirlwind]

then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, [/COLOR]

Hello Boston.....great point!

 

[Boston]

- Rev. 3:10I have to question your, "So it is saying God will keep us in the hour of temptation not take us 'out' or away from it." assertation.The scripture appears to say just the opposite.No one said the word "from" is being used as a verb. I would challenge anyone to try to use the word 'from' as a verb under any circumstances.I am not sure where you came up with that. The word "from" means "apart." It means "seperation." The phrase, "From then to now" means the seperation time between then and now.In the phrase "To take from," the word "from" addresses a location not an action.The last part of the scripture says, "...that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." I would like to hear someone explain how God is going to keep Christians "from the hour of testing" that will "test those who dwell on the earth"...while keeping Christians here on the earth. The simple question is, how will Christians be seperated here on earth from the testing that is going to test all those "who dwell on the earth."

The simple question is, how will Christians be seperated here on earth from the testing that is going to test all those "who dwell on the earth."

How? Because Christians are the ones who keep God's word, the Gospel.Scripture is teaching, since we are obedient to God's commands, and follow Christ's example, and have endured persecutions because if it, "perseverance." God will infallibly preserve us Christians from apostasy in the still more trying days of trouble and afflictions; which will come, and come for the trial of all professed Christians throughout.There are many promises to the truly faithful in Christ, and we can trust and depend on God and His promises, and He will keep us from perverted gospels and such. These, who are faithful, God will glorify to the fullest and cause us to appear as a true child of God, a citizen of heaven and a member of Christ, and finally made like unto Him into glory. 1 John 3:2Again,

The simple question is, how will Christians be seperated here on earth from the testing that is going to test all those "who dwell on the earth."

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance,"John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; So I'll answer your question by a question. Is everyone who profess to be a Christian truly a Christian?

 

[VCO]

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." -- Rev. 3:10-- You don't think this means you miss out on the Tribulation?Fine. Then what does it mean? And for those people -- you know who you are -- that think volume = value or a non-related scripture deluge proves a point, please keep your responses focused.Many thanks.

Yes I do, and that is the Rapture or Rapturo in the orignal Catholic Version. We are called to go to the Wedding of the Lamb. It lasts for 7 years, instead of 7 days here on earth. Jesus comes down to just inside the upside the upper atmosphere in the Clouds, and sends the Archangel on ahead to call us out. Those who are ready and looking for HIM, GO, are Called Out, and those who are NOT do not GO. We get our Glorified Bodies instantly at the point of being Called Out.

We also believe that we get to come back with HIM, 7 years later, for the Second Coming. The Second Coming is NOT the Rapture, as the FEET of HIM does not touch the GROUND, HE stops in the AIR, and sends the Archangel to CALL US OUT.



Zechariah 14:4 (HCSB)
4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.

Zech 14:5 [HCSB]
You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.