Revelation 7

[whirlwind]

As you would appreciate each symbol has its corresponding meaning.

Therefore Earth does not mean just earth but some other significance is attached.

Such as...the ground.

So when we see that the beast rising up out of the earth we need to ask what location (nation or area) will this beast rise out of?

As the beast has seven heads, which the Bible tells us are symbolic of mountains....and mountains are symbolic of nations....then the seven headed beast refers to seven nations. Perhaps the seven continents or, to put it in other words....the world or world-wide political control. The first beast rises out of the nations, all the nations. It is one of the heads, one of the nations, that receives a deadly wound. That is the location to question.

Sea:
Earth:
Beast having seven heads and ten horns:

I put to you that these symbols are not merely referring to peoples in the earth nor in particular the whole earth…they are much more specific.

You will need to understand Daniels prophecy to answer their menaing.



Your conclusion here comes extremely close to being truth.

Who specifically does the Woman represent?

Please understand that generalisations have no place in the Apocalypse; we must understand exactly who and what Jesus Christ is revealing.

The woman is the great city Babylon and that is idolatry, the idolatry of all religions.


Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Yes.

But please see the effects of Christ reign (1000 years) upon the Nations who no longer rage but are a "sea" of glass.

Insight

Smooth sailing, calm waters...a sea of glass and glass reflects Christ. The waves are no more. And then, when the millennium ends...there is no more sea. Rather those of the sea are either gone forever or are of God's family. All is new. The elect of heaven and the righteous of the earth are renewed.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



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[veteran]

Please consider that the two mentions of the 144,000 refers to two seperate groups. One group consists of the tribes while the other are those redeemed from the earth.

The 144,000 of Rev.7 are the same ones of Rev.14... they represent the elect firstfruits of Israel

Rev 14:1-4
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(KJV)


This next group, represent the elect of the Gentiles... for they will sing that song too...

Rev 15:1-3
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.
(KJV)

Because God has set aside 144,000 elect of Israel does not mean they are the only ones saved by Christ on the last day when He comes.

Who have been the chosen ones to bring The Gospel to us Gentiles and teach us? The chosen elect of Israel, like the OT Patriarchs, prophets, and Christ's Apostles, who were all of... chosen Israel. I see no reason for God to change that for Christ's coming Millennial reign, and His Word doesn't show that He changed that.

 

[whirlwind]

The 144,000 of Rev.7 are the same ones of Rev.14... they represent the elect firstfruits of Israel

They are not the same but they are the firstfruits.

Rev 14:1-4
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(KJV)


This next group, represent the elect of the Gentiles... for they will sing that song too...

Rev 15:1-3
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.
(KJV)

Because God has set aside 144,000 elect of Israel does not mean they are the only ones saved by Christ on the last day when He comes.

True...many will be saved but they will not be the firstfruits.

Who have been the chosen ones to bring The Gospel to us Gentiles and teach us? The chosen elect of Israel, like the OT Patriarchs, prophets, and Christ's Apostles, who were all of... chosen Israel. I see no reason for God to change that for Christ's coming Millennial reign, and His Word doesn't show that He changed that.

It is not changed...it is written:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The firstfruits are of the above...all, once they are in Christ, are One.



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[Vengle]

The thing about how we see things in Revelation is that we should realize that if our way of interpreting a particular symbolism is not also the way it was used in the OT, then we are wrong.

 

[whirlwind]

The thing about how we see things in Revelation is that we should realize that if our way of interpreting a particular symbolism is not also the way it was used in the OT, then we are wrong.

What is the particular point you are referencing?



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[Vengle]

What is the particular point you are referencing?



.

Just a confirmation that I support what Whirlwind said for that clings to the way it is portrayed in the OT.

Whirlwind said, "The woman is the great city Babylon and that is idolatry, the idolatry of all religions."


I guess I did fall asleep before completing my thought clearly, didn't I.

Oh, you are Whirlwind!!! :lol:

 

[veteran]

They are not the same but they are the firstfruits.

True...many will be saved but they will not be the firstfruits.

The first reference to a group of 144,000 are those of the tribes of Israel per Rev.7. They are represented by the remnant of Israel which Paul taught in Romans 11:1-5 which God reserved unto Himself according to His chosen election. We can't change that in favor of men's doctrines that try to override that. Those do not represent Jews who refuse Christ, nor Gentiles. Rev.7:9 represent the saved of the Gentiles, and are called a "great multitude", too many to number. And that is also how Apostle Paul taught concerning the Body of Christ as one, even as our Lord Jesus also did with two groups in John 17 about those whom The Father gave Him from the foundation of the world, compared to those who come to Christ through "their word" (i.e., through their preaching of The Gospel). And both groups were to become one in Christ Jesus.

It is not changed...it is written:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The firstfruits are of the above...all, once they are in Christ, are One.

I'm not going to go deep into this here, but it's about the difference between those 'called' vs. those 'chosen', as our Lord Jesus did say many are called, but few chosen. It's about God's election He ordained from the foundation of the world to serve in The Gospel. The OT Patriarchs, prophets, and NT Apostles is who that's about, for they were 'sent', which is what the Greek for apostle means.

Many have problems understanding this matter of God's election of those He ordained from the foundation of the world. Per John 17, those He gave to our Lord Jesus, and our Lord Jesus 'sent' those into this world. And by 'their' preaching, all those who hear through them and believe on Christ Jesus are to become 'one' Body in Christ, as firstfruits along with them. But for those 'called' only, that is yet to be confirmed for many in this last generation that will go through great tribulation to know whether or not they become apostates.

 

[whirlwind]

The first reference to a group of 144,000 are those of the tribes of Israel per Rev.7. They are represented by the remnant of Israel which Paul taught in Romans 11:1-5 which God reserved unto Himself according to His chosen election. We can't change that in favor of men's doctrines that try to override that. Those do not represent Jews who refuse Christ, nor Gentiles. Rev.7:9 represent the saved of the Gentiles, and are called a "great multitude", too many to number. And that is also how Apostle Paul taught concerning the Body of Christ as one, even as our Lord Jesus also did with two groups in John 17 about those whom The Father gave Him from the foundation of the world, compared to those who come to Christ through "their word" (i.e., through their preaching of The Gospel). And both groups were to become one in Christ Jesus.



I'm not going to go deep into this here, but it's about the difference between those 'called' vs. those 'chosen', as our Lord Jesus did say many are called, but few chosen. It's about God's election He ordained from the foundation of the world to serve in The Gospel. The OT Patriarchs, prophets, and NT Apostles is who that's about, for they were 'sent', which is what the Greek for apostle means.

Many have problems understanding this matter of God's election of those He ordained from the foundation of the world. Per John 17, those He gave to our Lord Jesus, and our Lord Jesus 'sent' those into this world. And by 'their' preaching, all those who hear through them and believe on Christ Jesus are to become 'one' Body in Christ, as firstfruits along with them. But for those 'called' only, that is yet to be confirmed for many in this last generation that will go through great tribulation to know whether or not they become apostates.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


The first group of 144,000 are of the tribes of Israel. They are the wife from the first earth age. The second group is...the virgin bride, redeemed from mankind...Gentile. They are the firstfruits while the others were already His.

I like your reference to the called and the chosen. My understanding is both, the called and the chosen, will be tested during the tribulation. The difference is the chosen few are the manchild.


Revelation 12:4-6 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


The woman/wife produces the man child (the chosen few). Christ dwells in them, teaches them, speaks through them, walks in them so...they are spiritually "caught up unto God and to His throne," while walking the earth. They are translated, as was Enoch. They feed the woman/wife the testimony of Christ which is...spiritual understanding of the written word.



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[Vengle]

Whirlwind,

No offense intended, but what you fail to see is that the only difference between the 144,000 of Rev. 7 and of Rev. 14 is that at Rev. 7 they are yet being selected, whereas at Rev. 14 they have already been selected and are now standing and ruling with Christ as denoted by their being atop that mountain with him.

It is the exact same group of 144,000.

Do yourself a favor and allow yourself to question that two group of 144,000 concept and feel uncertain about until you understand, because when we proceed on to build a host of other ideas upon a faulty foundation it only makes getting at and repairing any foundation errors all the more difficult.

 

[brionne]

I am perplexed to see so few are willing to speak to the symbology of verse Rev 7:1 and yet purport to understand the prophecy.

This is why Christianity will be in darkness when he comes.

Many do not understand the language of God.

Insight

I dont think Vengle has noticed that the 12 tribes listed in Revelation 7 do not correspond with fleshly isreal.

In Ge 49:2-28 the 12 sons of Jacob are listed as:
Reuben
Simeon,
Levi,
Judah,
Zbeulun,
Issachar,
Dan,
Gad,
Asher,
Naphtali,
Joseph,
Benjamin

But in Revelation 7, they are listed as:
Judah
Reu′ben
Gad
Ash′er
Naph′ta‧li
Ma‧nas′seh ?????
Sim′e‧on
Le′vi
Is′sa‧char
Zeb′u‧lun
Joseph
Benjamin
So we have the addition of Manasseh and the exclusion of Dan in Revelation. So these are NOT the 12 tribes as the 12 tribes existed throughout Israels history.

 

[Insight]

I dont think Vengle has noticed that the 12 tribes listed in Revelation 7 do not correspond with fleshly isreal.

In Ge 49:2-28 the 12 sons of Jacob are listed as:
Reuben
Simeon,
Levi,
Judah,
Zbeulun,
Issachar,
Dan,
Gad,
Asher,
Naphtali,
Joseph,
Benjamin

But in Revelation 7, they are listed as:
Judah
Reu′ben
Gad
Ash′er
Naph′ta‧li
Ma‧nas′seh ?????
Sim′e‧on
Le′vi
Is′sa‧char
Zeb′u‧lun
Joseph
Benjamin
So we have the addition of Manasseh and the exclusion of Dan in Revelation. So these are NOT the 12 tribes as the 12 tribes existed throughout Israels history.

I love this lesson.

Have you thought why Dan is excluded?

 

[brionne]

I love this lesson.

Have you thought why Dan is excluded?

...or why manassah is included?

I dont think the answer is relevant in the book of Revelation. It should be taken as evidence that the 144.000 are not literal isrealites from each of the tribes

We should be able to deduct that Revelation 7 is not speaking about natural isreal but rather a spiritual isreal....such as the annointed members of Christs chosen ones. His 12 apostles represented the first of the chosen ones. Jesus himself said at Matthew 22:14 “For there are many invited, but few chosen.
he also indicated that there would be two different sheepfolds...one was a 'little flock' and the other were called the 'other sheep'

at Luke 12:32 Jesus said to the 'little flock' “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom
And about those of the other sheep he said at John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd
Now if these ones are a differnt group to those who are 'chosen' for the 'kingdom'...then they must have a different hope. And we can glean from Jesus sermon on the mount exactly where their hope lies: Matthew 5:5 “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth


Personally, I see revelation 7 as showing those two groups of christians in their relative places. The 'little flock' of 144,000 in heaven with Christ as the chosen ones who will rule as kings and priests over the people of earth. And the 'great crowd' are those who inherit everlasting life on earth whom Jesus called the 'other sheep' who were to inherit the earth.

what do you think?

 

[Vengle]

I agree with Pegg.

We could spend much time speculating on that difference many different ways.

I have combed for the answer to that curiosity for many years and still cannot do anything but speculate concerning it.

It does not surprise me to see Manasseh there as he was Joseph's true firstborn son. And we know that Joseph was to be given a double portion.

But as to why Dan is missing ?

Wasn't it Dan that refused to humble himself and go up to the passover festival one year? It seems that the tribes of Dan and Manasseh and I forget the other tribe or two tribes, were upset concerning an invitation of again I forget who to come attend the passover. The other two or three tribes relented and did attend the passover but only Dan went through with not attending.

Is that what you have in mind Insight?

Or was that even Dan that did that? I am going to have to dig back into that.

By the way Pegg, I see that twelve tribe Israel of Revelation 7 as all men irrespective of nationality who have even a miniscule of faith in God world-wide.

And I see that the 144,000 as the 144,000 best picks, the cream of the crop, men of faith's finest, to rule with Christ over that millennium.

The rest of those of that wide-range faith nation are set back in the furnace of the great tribulation for a spell of further refining and those that do not burn up come out as the great crowd.

You see, I believe our loving Father is not about trying to destroy but to salvage. And the great tribulation is not about destroying but about shaking absolutely all that are possible loose from this world and to God in faith before Armageddon destroys all who oppose.

 

[Insight]

I agree with Pegg.

We could spend much time speculating on that difference many different ways.

I have combed for the answer to that curiosity for many years and still cannot do anything but speculate concerning it.

It does not surprise me to see Manasseh there as he was Joseph's true firstborn son. And we know that Joseph was to be given a double portion.

But as to why Dan is missing ?

Wasn't it Dan that refused to humble himself and go up to the passover festival one year? It seems that the tribes of Dan and Manasseh and I forget the other tribe or two tribes, were upset concerning an invitation of again I forget who to come attend the passover. The other two or three tribes relented and did attend the passover but only Dan went through with not attending.

Is that what you have in mind Insight?

Or was that even Dan that did that? I am going to have to dig back into that.

By the way Pegg, I see that twelve tribe Israel of Revelation 7 as all men irrespective of nationality who have even a miniscule of faith in God world-wide.

And I see that the 144,000 as the 144,000 best picks, the cream of the crop, men of faith's finest, to rule with Christ over that millennium.

The rest of those of that wide-range faith nation are set back in the furnace of the great tribulation for a spell of further refining and those that do not burn up come out as the great crowd.

You see, I believe our loving Father is not about trying to destroy but to salvage. And the great tribulation is not about destroying but about shaking absolutely all that are possible loose from this world and to God in faith before Armageddon destroys all who oppose.

Pegg / Vengle

Peg, you see the Mind of Yahweh like very few in this forum, all the "would be" Christians would do very well to heed your posts!

A spiritual riddle?

In the breastplate, the beryl stood for Dan; in The Apocalypse it stands for Levi?

But why?

Dan means judge, and Levi denotes joining.

So we know that in the fulfillment of these things the nations will be humbled and subdued by the Judgments of Christ, and then will be joined to him in fellowship.

Maybe one might ask why the tribe of Dan lost its ability to judge?

Insight

 

[brionne]

By the way Pegg, I see that twelve tribe Israel of Revelation 7 as all men irrespective of nationality who have even a miniscule of faith in God world-wide.

And I see that the 144,000 as the 144,000 best picks, the cream of the crop, men of faith's finest, to rule with Christ over that millennium.

The rest of those of that wide-range faith nation are set back in the furnace of the great tribulation for a spell of further refining and those that do not burn up come out as the great crowd.

You see, I believe our loving Father is not about trying to destroy but to salvage. And the great tribulation is not about destroying but about shaking absolutely all that are possible loose from this world and to God in faith before Armageddon destroys all who oppose.

I'm sorry, i think I got you mixed up with the OP and Veteren who both seem to think that the 144,000 are natural isreal...jews

I agree with you that the 144,000 will be chosen from all nations of people...except that women are also among them because they too were present at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the 120 disciples gathered in the upper room. Spirit annointed christians are those who are born from 'spirit and water' as Jesus explained at John 3:5 "...Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

 

[Insight]

I'm sorry, i think I got you mixed up with the OP and Veteren who both seem to think that the 144,000 are natural isreal...jews

I agree with you that the 144,000 will be chosen from all nations of people...except that women are also among them because they too were present at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the 120 disciples gathered in the upper room. Spirit annointed christians are those who are born from 'spirit and water' as Jesus explained at John 3:5 "...Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

144,000 = Spiritual Israel after the promise of spiritual Isaac

 

[brionne]

Pegg / Vengle

Peg, you see the Mind of Yahweh like very few in this forum, all the "would be" Christians would do very well to heed your posts!

A spiritual riddle?

In the breastplate, the beryl stood for Dan; in The Apocalypse it stands for Levi?

But why?

Dan means judge, and Levi denotes joining.

So we know that in the fulfillment of these things the nations will be humbled and subdued by the Judgments of Christ, and then will be joined to him in fellowship.

Maybe one might ask why the tribe of Dan lost its ability to judge?

Insight

thank you for the kind words. I only understand Gods word how I have been taught it, so i thank my bible teachers for their wisdom and spiritual knowledge.

What scriptures do you use for the breastplate and its stones?

 

[Vengle]

Just for the record,

I was miserably wrong in my wretched recall that it was Dan who had stubbornly refused the passover one year, LOL.

It was four tribes, Ephraim, Manasseh, Asher, and Zebulun.

Ephraim was the one that did not humble itself.

2 Chronicles 30:10-11
I don't know how it relates to this discussion, if at all.

Hey, I tried.


I like that observation of the riddle there Insight.

That sounds reasonable.

 

[brionne]

144,000 = Spiritual Israel after the promise of spiritual Isaac

yep, thats it.. Isaacs birth was not in the manner of flesh, it was in the manner of spirit because he came as a promise by God that the barren woman would conceive.

For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh (natural born isrealites) are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise (Gods promise to Sarah to conceive a child) are counted as the seed."

So God does not need to use natural born Jews/Isrealites to fill the heavenly kingdom with heirs... he will choose those who put faith in him

hence why Paul goes onto state in Galatians 4:31 Wherefore, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl (hagar), but of the free woman (sarah)

 

[Insight]

What scriptures do you use for the breastplate and its stones?

Hi Pegg,

The Sardius was the first stone on the breastplate and how fitting a symbol is it? The Hebrew is odem and is similar to Adam relating to the flesh. It is reddish in colour and represents our beginning in the flesh. It stood for the tribe of Judah (See Exod 28:17 & Num. 2:3).

Now you may like to explore what the last stone on the breastplate represented to see the great lesson hidden there Rev 21:20

A study of the stones is simply breathtaking and should one venture into the record you will very quickly be enlightened to the great theme of the Scriptures.

This study can move you to tears when set against the life of Jesus Christ.

Insight

p.s Maybe I should share these studies one day soon.

It appears we are all making mistakes today. I must have rocks in my head (pardon the pun)

The reference to Dan is Exod 28:20 & Num 1:12

So God does not need to use natural born Jews/Isrealites to fill the heavenly kingdom with heirs... he will choose those who put faith in him

Pegg,

I almost let this pass by without consideration.

You dont mean to say that Yahweh has finished with natrual Israel?

Just checking.

Insight