Revelation 7

[Vengle]

I almost let this pass by without consideration.

You dont mean to say that Yahweh has finished with natrual Israel?

Just checking.

Insight

I will will answer.

Yes, he most definitely has.

He uses a remnant out of them just as he does all nations but he does not use those nations per say.

That nation pictured Christ's kingdom.

It already exists and it sure is not that nation we see in the mid-east.

By the time that nation was changed to anything near usable by God it would not be the same nation at all.

You look at the dieing flesh if you want to. That is all you are seeing of any nation on this earth.

Just because race origin is mentioned as a nation coming in does not in any way mean those nations are being saved in their entirety. Only a remnant.

And it is no different for that carnal nation called Israel.

Ungodliness has already been turned away from Jacob.

 

[Insight]

I will will answer.

Yes, he most definitely has.

He uses a remnant out of them just as he does all nations but he does not use those nations per say.

That nation pictured Christ's kingdom.

It already exists and it sure is not that nation we see in the mid-east.

By the time that nation was changed to anything near usable by God it would not be the same nation at all.

You look at the dieing flesh if you want to. That is all you are seeing of any nation on this earth.

Just because race origin is mentioned as a nation coming in does not in any way mean those nations are being saved in their entirety. Only a remnant.

And it is no different for that carnal nation called Israel.

Ungodliness has already been turned away from Jacob.

Would you be open to a deeper understanding of God's purpose with Israel today, or have you made up your mind?

Insight

 

[brionne]

Hi Pegg,

The Sardius was the first stone on the breastplate and how fitting a symbol is it? The Hebrew is odem and is similar to Adam relating to the flesh. It is reddish in colour and represents our beginning in the flesh. It stood for the tribe of Judah (See Exod 28:17 & Num. 2:3).

Now you may like to explore what the last stone on the breastplate represented to see the great lesson hidden there Rev 21:20

A study of the stones is simply breathtaking and should one venture into the record you will very quickly be enlightened to the great theme of the Scriptures.

This study can move you to tears when set against the life of Jesus Christ.

Insight

p.s Maybe I should share these studies one day soon.

It appears we are all making mistakes today. I must have rocks in my head (pardon the pun)

The reference to Dan is Exod 28:20 & Num 1:12



Pegg,

I almost let this pass by without consideration.

You dont mean to say that Yahweh has finished with natrual Israel?

Just checking.

Insight

cheers for that, that is an interesting subject. God did use things as symbols of something spiritual.. Paul said the physical things of the temple and priesthood arrangement were a physical representation of the things in the heavens.


with regard to natural isreal today, being born a jew does not automatically qualify one for a spot in Gods heavenly kingdom. That is what Paul was really getting at in Galatians. Being born of fleshly isreal does not make one a member of the promised seed. He spoke of Ishmael as being of Abrahams flesh, but Ishmael was not the one for whom the seed was meant. And thats why he said not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.”
Ishmael sprang from Isreal, but he was not a true Isrealite. But that does not mean that a jew cannot become an heir with Christ... many jews already accepted Christ and are with Christ in heaven right now. So im certainly not saying that jews cannot become members with Christ. I dont believe that the nation of Isreal today is going to be the 144,000 either.... that opportunity was opened up to people of any nation.

 

[Insight]

Hi Pegg and maybe Vengle in the background.

A lovely evening to discuss Israel?

cheers for that, that is an interesting subject. God did use things as symbols of something spiritual.. Paul said the physical things of the temple and priesthood arrangement were a physical representation of the things in the heavens.


with regard to natural isreal, any one of them can become spiritual isreal any time they choose... but they have to choose it. Being born a jew does not automatically qualify one for a spot in Gods heavenly kingdom. That is what Paul was really getting at in Galatians. Being born of fleshly isreal does not make one a member of the promised seed. He spoke of Ishmael as being of Abrahams flesh, but Ishmael was not the one for whom the seed was meant. And thats why he said not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.”
Ishmael sprang from Isreal, but he was not a true Isrealite. But that does not mean that a jew cannot become an heir with Christ... many jews already accepted Christ and are with Christ in heaven right now. So im certainly not saying that jews cannot become members with Christ.

I agree with all you have written.

My question was more gaining your understanding on how God views natural Israel today and the plans He has for them in the future.

Insight

 

[brionne]

Hi Pegg and maybe Vengle in the background.

A lovely evening to discuss Israel?

I agree with all you have written.

My question was more gaining your understanding on how God views natural Israel today and the plans He has for them in the future.

Insight

i personally believe that natural Israel today are viewed like every other person on earth... they individually have the opportunity to come to God through Christ just like all of us do.

The days of partiality are over. God has turned his attention to 'people' from all nations. We are standing before him as individuals, not as a collective and for that reason i dont believe there one nation whom he favors.

 

[Insight]

I believe in this to be true

they individually have the opportunity to come to God through Christ just like all of us do.

Although this I believe needs further consideration.

i personally believe that natural Israel today are viewed like every other person on earth

There are some lovely unfulfilled prophecies concerning natural Israel that are yet to be accomplished. Rather than railroading this thread it may be worthwhile considering some of them.

I am happy to discuss (no pressure)

Insight

 

[brionne]

I believe in this to be true



Although this I believe needs further consideration.



There are some lovely unfulfilled prophecies concerning natural Israel that are yet to be accomplished. Rather than railroading this thread it may be worthwhile considering some of them.

I am happy to discuss (no pressure)

Insight

sure thing, im always up for an open discussion


let me know what forum you put it in.

 

[Vengle]

Would you be open to a deeper understanding of God's purpose with Israel today, or have you made up your mind?

Insight

As I said, Carnal man's efforts are not in any way going to be used by God and that is all you have with modern natural Israel. They are no different than the United States claiming to be a specially blessed nation of God formed on Christian principles.

The proof is in the fruits of both of them.

Matthew 7:18 "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

The only God either of them really have is the god of fortresses, (military might).

Their trust is in the arm of flesh.

Modern Israel is more like Ephraim with his trust in the nations.

But though we have most likely heard ten thousand times before what you are going to tell us, just tell us about the prophecy you have in your mind and what you think it means and let us comment on it.

 

[Insight]

What you have been told?

I wouldnt want to repeat that which you have already rejected?

Insight

 

[Vengle]

What you have been told?

I wouldnt want to repeat that which you have already rejected?

Insight

How do you know we might not see something different this time?

I said, "most likely have heard it .... before".

Surprise us! Maybe you will say just a little something different.

In so far as what I have been told, wow!!!

We hear so much of it is hard to pick a place to begin.

One person on a thread here somewhere even went so far as to say that Old Law was going to come back.

Others say it never went away.

A few lay out the OT prophecies and proceed to explain them by means of a view that is stuck in the flesh.

I mean, what do you want me to say?

 

[Prentis]

I will will answer.

Yes, he most definitely has.

He uses a remnant out of them just as he does all nations but he does not use those nations per say.

That nation pictured Christ's kingdom.

It already exists and it sure is not that nation we see in the mid-east.

By the time that nation was changed to anything near usable by God it would not be the same nation at all.

You look at the dieing flesh if you want to. That is all you are seeing of any nation on this earth.

Just because race origin is mentioned as a nation coming in does not in any way mean those nations are being saved in their entirety. Only a remnant.

And it is no different for that carnal nation called Israel.

Ungodliness has already been turned away from Jacob.

I agree with your point, a (physical) Jew is no different from any other man.

I would say one thing to this though. My understanding of what Paul says in Romans is that indeed, there will be a time where the religious Jews, those who read the Torah, will see the light. That is, when we shine it bright! And when this happens, when the time is come, some will hate, and some will have their eyes opened.

Thus it will be fulfilled that "[the Lord] will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation; [the Lord] will move them to anger by a foolish nation."

 

[Insight]

How do you know we might not see something different this time?

I said, "most likely have heard it .... before".

Surprise us! Maybe you will say just a little something different.

In so far as what I have been told, wow!!!

We hear so much of it is hard to pick a place to begin.

One person on a thread here somewhere even went so far as to say that Old Law was going to come back.

Others say it never went away.

A few lay out the OT prophecies and proceed to explain them by means of a view that is stuck in the flesh.

I mean, what do you want me to say?

I hope so - I'm feeling a little pressure now Vengle

I agree with your point, a (physical) Jew is no different from any other man.

Does the above point contradict the below one? I am not having a "go" just clarifying.

I would say one thing to this though. My understanding of what Paul says in Romans is that indeed, there will be a time where the religious Jews, those who read the Torah, will see the light. That is, when we shine it bright! And when this happens, when the time is come, some will hate, and some will have their eyes opened.

Thus it will be fulfilled that "[the Lord] will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation; [the Lord] will move them to anger by a foolish nation."

 

[Vengle]

If you want to discuss Romans chapter 11 let us take it one verse at a time.

Let's check the Greek Grammar and Exegesis and make sure what that verse says.

And let's be clear on the definitions of all key words.

Then let's draw on the context.

That probably ought to be done first anyway because as long as you believe Paul sees those OT prophecies the way you think he does, you sure won't listen to anything we say above Paul.

That is the problem with this stuff, people get locked into what they believe with multiple padlocks.

They resist the removal of one because of the others.

They are convinced they ought to be there.

Let me restate that last line.

They are convinced one padlock belongs because of the others. And it is near impossible by human effort to remove them all at one time.

 

[Insight]

Lets begin.

Would you like to start a new thread?

 

[Prentis]

Does the above point contradict the below one? I am not having a "go" just clarifying.

Oh no! That is not what I meant. I was merely adding to what was being said... Bringing another angle, if you will!

If you want to discuss Romans chapter 11 let us take it one verse at a time.

Let's check the Greek Grammar and Exegesis and make sure what that verse says.

And let's be clear on the definitions of all key words.

Then let's draw on the context.

That probably ought to be done first anyway because as long as you believe Paul sees those OT prophecies the way you think he does, you sure won't listen to anything we say above Paul.

That is the problem with this stuff, people get locked into what they believe with multiple padlocks.

They resist the removal of one because of the others.

They are convinced they ought to be there.

Let me restate that last line.

They are convinced one padlock belongs because of the others. And it is near impossible by human effort to remove them all at one time.

Is that adressed to me, or Insight?

If me, I'm very willing to see what you would have to say. Go right ahead!

 

[Insight]

Prentis,

It was addressed to me however it appears Vengle has run off for the moment.

I am hoping he will start a new thread.

Insight


p.s I might add I would value yours and others contribution.

 

[Vengle]

Lets begin.

Would you like to start a new thread?

If you would like to discuss it here it is related to the topic. Perhaps we should let the host of this thread have a say in that though.

Before we begin I just want to say, you said or quoted, "Thus it will be fulfilled that "[the Lord] will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation; [the Lord] will move them to anger by a foolish nation."

That has been being done as Romans chapter 10 shows, right then and there and in every generation since.

I have just today found one mistake I was making in my understanding that perhaps complicated my helping others to see the whole picture.

The problem is in failing to see that the two groups we see in Revelation 7 are also in every generation. In every generation there are the elect (the Saints) whom the holy spirit directly calls and there are also those who will not be co-rulers with Christ, but instead subjects of that kingdom.

Paul's grooming the Romans to preach more zealously to the Jews was not to only sound the trumpet of God for those elect to come in, but also to excite as many of the non-elect blind ones to jealousy and spur them to think.

I have been guilty in the past of thinking everyone was elect in all of those churches. I was wrong.

But my finding out I was wrong has given me even a clearer picture of what Paul said in Romans 11 and it has further confirmed what I had come to believe, rather than frustrated it.

Many years ago I used to believe the flesh and blood Israel was God's special people. I did not stop believing that through anyone's external persuasion. I ceased to believe that during many months and hours of personal study in my Bible and much begging of the holy spirit to help me see, not what I wanted to see, but, what God wanted me to see.

The future tense used in that verse you quoted is not Paul using the future tense. It is the OT prophecy using the future tense. It began being fulfilled there with Paul.

"Thus it will be fulfilled that "[the Lord] will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation; [the Lord] will move them to anger by a foolish nation."

 

[Vengle]

That is worth repeating:

The future tense used in that verse you quoted is not Paul using the future tense. It is the OT prophecy using the future tense. It began being fulfilled there with Paul.

Romans 10:19 "Thus it will be fulfilled that "[the Lord] will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation; [the Lord] will move them to anger by a foolish nation."

 

[Prentis]

I don't disagree with that. But when it comes to great depth, walking in the Spirit and being as Christ, I do think some will be awakened when we move into this.

When Paul wrote this, he did consider Israel at the moment cast away, but said it would not be forever. That doesn't mean none will be his now, he does as he wishes! And obviously, at the time some already were his, like Paul himself!

It has already been started, but I think it will be fulfilled when again the church awakens.

[sup]11[/sup] I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. [sup]12[/sup] Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
[sup]13[/sup] For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, [sup]14[/sup] if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. [sup]15[/sup] For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

 

[whirlwind]

Whirlwind,

No offense intended, but what you fail to see is that the only difference between the 144,000 of Rev. 7 and of Rev. 14 is that at Rev. 7 they are yet being selected, whereas at Rev. 14 they have already been selected and are now standing and ruling with Christ as denoted by their being atop that mountain with him.

It is the exact same group of 144,000.

Do yourself a favor and allow yourself to question that two group of 144,000 concept and feel uncertain about until you understand, because when we proceed on to build a host of other ideas upon a faulty foundation it only makes getting at and repairing any foundation errors all the more difficult.

The mount of Olives is...the nation of olive trees, His nation of believers.

The mount Sion is...the nation of the called ones, the tribes of the children of Israel. They are called as they are the wife, His servants and they are apart from the whole of the church, or, all of the olive trees. They are apart for they are sealed with truth and will not fall. However, part of the olive trees do fall to deception for the mount of Olives cleaves in half. [Zech.14]

Who stands on mount Sion or...who stands on the nation of the called ones? The chosen ones, the firstfruits.

Revelation 7:1-4 2 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

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Revelation 14:1-4 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
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The tribes sing the Song of Moses. The virgins sing a new song only they can sing. The tribes are sealed....the virgins have His Father's name written in their foreheads. Are some of those of the tribes included in the other group singing the new song? I don't know but I do know...there are two different groups.



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