Revelation of the saint Yuhanna[pbuh]

[Yusef]

If you don't believe your own words why should others believe them?
And is it better to rely on other people's sources than what one knows as truth in their own soul?

There comes a point when you know what you know is truth,
even when everything ever written tells you that your wrong.
You can either rely on other people's "sources"
or you can rely on your own experience.

Not everyone has the same experience, therefore all sources also come from other's individual experiences.
Why should their experiences be more true than your own.

You are your own source.
And you allow other people to be your source and your truth.
But they are not you.

You have to vet yourself. You have to test yourself.
You have to be willing to criticise yourself.

Other people's sources are no more or less reliable than your own.

1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.



What is magic?

Dan 5:11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers ;
Dan 5:12 Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar: now let Daniel be called, and he will shew the interpretation.

Was Daniel a magician? Did he use magic?

Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
Dan 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.
Dan 2:23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king's matter.

God is greater then magic.

your turn :)
HUGS

I posted quoting of a series of our sources,
Then you posted quoting of a series of your sources.

Well,
Which parts of each others deny/against/versus Which parts of each others!!!?

I see both confirm each other!

 

[Yusef]

The message of God does not require decoding.

So are you waiting for a real dragon and two real beasts and serpent etc!??

Either Christianity is true and Islam is false....

Bravo

or
Islam is true and Christianity is false.

Nope!
IF Islam us true, then Christianity is true too.
Look! Christianity! NOT Paulity!

For me as Islam denies that Jesus was crucified and the Bible and historians agree that he was.
That means Islam is false.

For us as worshippers of Paul agree that prophet Jesus[pbuh] is god, That means we Shi'a Muslims are the real followers of Jesus[pbuh]
Source: return back to the post no. 13

So you need to follow Jesus if you want to serve God.

Toyota:)[to you too]

 

[Windmill Charge]

IF Islam us true, then Christianity is true too.
Look! Christianity! NOT Paulity!

Jesus said, 'I Am the Way, the Life and the Truth. No one comes to the Father but by Me.'
Islam does not believe this. That salvation is only through faith in Jesus, the Son of God.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Christianity believes that (Allah) God, created for himself a human body in which to bring His message to the world.

No Ziggy, "Allah" and "God" (YHWH of the Bible) are NOT the same being. That's a direct violation of "no other Gods before me".

Jesus is THE Prophet in the Christian religion,

No, per Scripture Jesus is the Son of God and the only name given to man from Heaven by which Salvation can be attained.

From here we see two branches, Isaac and Ishmael.
We follow the family tree of Isaac, but what of Ishmael's branch?

Yeah I believe they are grafted together at some point.

The 2 doctrines are not only alien but adversarially opposed. There is no fellowship between light and dark.

 

[Ziggy]

No Ziggy, "Allah" and "God" (YHWH of the Bible) are NOT the same being. That's a direct violation of "no other Gods before me".


No, per Scripture Jesus is the Son of God and the only name given to man from Heaven by which Salvation can be attained.



The 2 doctrines are not only alien but adversarially opposed. There is no fellowship between light and dark.

Why can't Allah be Jehovah?
It's not another God before or after, but perhaps the same?

I don't know anything about Islam..
I was trying to put it in some perspective.

Why can't the two be the same?
What are the differences between them?
Thank You
Hugs

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Why can't Allah be Jehovah?
It's not another God before or after, but perhaps the same?

I don't know anything about Islam..
I was trying to put it in some perspective.

"Allah" basically means "The moon- god"- its not a proper name or noun in that sense. Arabs also attribute it to Jehovah" in relation to pre-Islamic times but that's back engineering it.

The god Islam acknowledged is the "moon god". This is why they face Mecca and the crescent moon is the symbol of him.

From a Christian perspective, to call "Jehovah" "Allah" would carry equal weight with calling "Lucifer" God.

 

[Ziggy]

You know Egypt and Rome.. they have this thing about sun gods.
You say, Islam acknowledges a moon god.

So that made me think of the sun being darkened and the moon turning to blood..

Which kind of makes sense if you look at it from a diety? perspective.

Just thinking
Hugs

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

We all believe in Abraham and Isaac and Jacob?
We are brothers and sisters according to the common knowledge that there is One God, One Allah.
What is the wedge between Christians and Muslims?

Let me give you the cliff note version hitting only the highest points

It has to do with Abraham and God's promise.

When God said he would give him a son, Abraham misinterpreted and followed law/tradition and had a son with his wife's concubine. (Abraham nor Ishmael was punished and God did regard Ishmael as a legitimate son which is why he told Abraham to send him away and provide for them)

God meant Sara and when they had a son, "he" was the heir of the promise (Isaac). (per God)

That's the wedge. Ishmael and his descendants/followers are NOT biblical heirs to Abrahams promise or god's blessing.

 

[Ziggy]

Let me give you the cliff note version hitting only the highest points

It has to do with Abraham and God's promise.

When God said he would give him a son, Abraham misinterpreted and followed law/tradition and had a son with his wife's concubine. (Abraham nor Ishmael was punished and God did regard Ishmael as a legitimate son which is why he told Abraham to send him away and provide for them)

God meant Sara and when they had a son, "he" was the heir of the promise (Isaac). (per God)

That's the wedge. Ishmael and his descendants/followers are NOT biblical heirs to Abrahams promise or god's blessing.

I believe the Bible is the family tree for Israel.
Somewhere along the line Ishmael was cut off.
God promised Abraham that Ishmael would become a great nation also.

Gen 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Gen 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
Gen 17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

I understand the everlasting covenant was established with Isaac. I understand that the promise of the Messiah would come through his seed.

Even Ishmael and all that pertained to him were circumcised the same day Abraham circumcised himself.

Where did Ishmael go?
Thank You
Hugs

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Where did Ishmael go?

That's a bit of a question but basically into the region of Egypt and fathered several Arab tribes.
There are many convoluted variations as to exactly who, what, when and where.

 

[Ziggy]

That's a bit of a question but basically into the region of Egypt and fathered several Arab tribes.
There are many convoluted variations as to exactly who, what, when and where.

Gen 25:12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
Gen 25:13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
Gen 25:14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
Gen 25:15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
Gen 25:16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.
Gen 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
Gen 25:18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.

Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.


Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

I can follow my lineage as far back as the 1600's. English, some French...
Everyone can go back to Noah and his 3 sons.
I believe I would be from Japheth's line because they headed to northern Europe.

In between Japheth and the 1600's, I have no idea if I have any relation to Jews or Arabs, or any other nations for that matter.
At this point in history, I believe the bloodlines are so intertwined, that to try to untangle them would be impossible.

I guess the bottom line or ultimate question would be,

WHY CAN'T PEOPLE JUST GET ALONG!?

Ishmael was never brought under the law the Israelites were given.
Does that mean they are Gentiles?

so frustrating.. always a reason to argue about anything always.
Why are we like that?
EGO

I'm just rambling..
Thank You
Hugs

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Ishmael was never brought under the law the Israelites were given.
Does that mean they are Gentiles?

Yes (by the understood use and context of the word back then)

But understand this also, in usage, "gentile" specifically referred to a non Jew ( by the definition of a citizen of Judea who were highly mongrelized by that time) so even the other 10 tribes of Israel were "Gentiles" as well.

 

[farouk]

Gen 25:12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
Gen 25:13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
Gen 25:14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
Gen 25:15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
Gen 25:16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.
Gen 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
Gen 25:18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.

Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.


Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

I can follow my lineage as far back as the 1600's. English, some French...
Everyone can go back to Noah and his 3 sons.
I believe I would be from Japheth's line because they headed to northern Europe.

In between Japheth and the 1600's, I have no idea if I have any relation to Jews or Arabs, or any other nations for that matter.
At this point in history, I believe the bloodlines are so intertwined, that to try to untangle them would be impossible.

I guess the bottom line or ultimate question would be,

WHY CAN'T PEOPLE JUST GET ALONG!?

Ishmael was never brought under the law the Israelites were given.
Does that mean they are Gentiles?

so frustrating.. always a reason to argue about anything always.
Why are we like that?
EGO

I'm just rambling..
Thank You
Hugs

@Ziggy In the end, in this church age especially, it's faith that is the key, rather than bloodlines, isn't it? Hebrews 11: 'By faith...by faith...by faith...'

I think of the Moabites for example in the OT: Eglon, King of Moab was not a nice man, to put it mildly...on the other hand, Ruth became a Godly woman and even has a book of the Bible named for her...

 

[Ziggy]

@Ziggy In the end, in this church age especially, it's faith that is the key, rather than bloodlines, isn't it? Hebrews 11: 'By faith...by faith...by faith...'

I think of the Moabites for example in the OT: Eglon, King of Moab was not a nice man, to put it mildly...on the other hand, Ruth became a Godly woman and even has a book of the Bible named for her...

God is not a respector of persons.
I guess one could say, not a respector of nations or bloodlines.
I believe it's one on one, face to face, and extremely personal.

I just don't think we should hold back brotherly love because of one's nationality, or bloodline.
If Jesus was from the line of Ishmael.. (JUST SAYING)
And he came to save his brother Israel/Isaac..
Would we see Jesus diferently?
Would it matter what "tribe" God sent salvation from?

I think of Jonah going to Nineveh.
Jonah wasn't a Ninevite, He was an Israelite.
Jonah didn't like Ninevah because they had been at war.

You would think God would send a Ninevite Prophet to save Ninevah right?
Doesn't always work that way.
God does things his own way.

If we removed the names and the faces and just concentrated on the hearts, and how they felt, their works, what they did,
We probably have a better understanding than because he is a Jew or a Gentile.

I just look at things from different angles.
Hugs

 

[farouk]

God is not a respector of persons.
I guess one could say, not a respector of nations or bloodlines.
I believe it's one on one, face to face, and extremely personal.

I just don't think we should hold back brotherly love because of one's nationality, or bloodline.
If Jesus was from the line of Ishmael.. (JUST SAYING)
And he came to save his brother Israel/Isaac..
Would we see Jesus diferently?
Would it matter what "tribe" God sent salvation from?

I think of Jonah going to Nineveh.
Jonah wasn't a Ninevite, He was an Israelite.
Jonah didn't like Ninevah because they had been at war.

You would think God would send a Ninevite Prophet to save Ninevah right?
Doesn't always work that way.
God does things his own way.

If we removed the names and the faces and just concentrated on the hearts, and how they felt, their works, what they did,
We probably have a better understanding than because he is a Jew or a Gentile.

I just look at things from different angles.
Hugs

@Ziggy Hebrews describes wonderfully how the Lord Jesus fulfills Old Testament Scriptures. We are in the end left with the record of what is indeed revealed about Him, rather than with what might have been.