Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Well, I think I'll stick with the writings of Jesus in His Book.
It's the best selling Book of all time in the history of man ya know.
It comes highly recommended by the Father too!
Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2
- Thread starter Episkopos
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Well, I think I'll stick with the writings of Jesus in His Book.
It's the best selling Book of all time in the history of man ya know.
It comes highly recommended by the Father too!
Do we think there is no value in there being witnesses then? The bible doesn't seem to agree, as we are all to be witnesses of the truth and of God's grace and our living experience of Him, whether in writing or verbally. And the body of Christ is to build itself up in love...there's no reason why that can't sometimes be done in writing as well as face to face. The apostles obviously often taught the early church in writing, and thank God for it, so that later believers can also benefit from those letters down through time. And we are all here on the forum reading each other's writing, true?Well, I think I'll stick with the writings of Jesus in His Book.
It's the best selling Book of all time in the history of man ya know.
It comes highly recommended by the Father too!
But of course we need to test everything against the plumbline of the scriptures, because false teachers abound....people can be very wrong and misleading, and even if not mistaken in a major way, we keep in mind that all are imperfect vessels. I wouldn't recommend reading other witnesses for new believers without first having a good grasp of the bible tucked away in the heart. Our reliance needs to be on God, not on other witnesses and their writing.
What I've read so far of Jeanne Guyon's own writing doesn't seem new age to me. @Laurina, @Episkopos, @amigo de christo, @Dan Clarkston. When we hear accusations of others we need to keep in mind that people (especially religious) often will criticize, apply labels, and falsely accuse and regard with suspicion what they have no first hand understanding of. As Jesus is our prime example. But keep in mind that she was also a product of her time, place and personal experience etc.......as we all are without necessarily being "false" witnesses.
Here are some poems she wrote while imprisoned as a heretic in the most miserable conditions of that time and basically left to rot in filth and disease. A middle aged woman, who had been raised in luxury when young. I think these speak for themselves....the proof in the pudding. To me these poems demonstrate a soul wholly submitted to the Lord and blessed by Him, in a state of overcoming. But everyone can discern for themselves:
Poems Written In Prison
Prison Walls
Strong are the walls around me,
That hold me all the day;
But they who thus have bound me,
Cannot keep God away:
My very dungeon walls are dear,
Because the God I love is here.
They know, who thus oppress me,
'Tis hard to be alone;
But know not one can bless me,
Who comes through bars and stone;
He makes my dungeon's darkness bright,
And fills my bosom with delight.
Thy love, O God, restores me
From sighs and tears to praise;
And deep my soul adores thee,
Nor thinks of time or place;
I ask no more, in good or ill,
But union with Thy holy will.
'Tis that which makes my treasure,
'Tis that which brings me gain;
Converting woe to pleasure,
And reaping joy from pain:
O 'tis enough, whate'er befall,
To know that God is All in All.
The Entire Surrender
Peace has unveiled her smiling face,
And woos thy soul to her embrace;
Enjoyed with ease, if thou refrain,
From selfish love, else sought in vain;
She dwells with all who truth prefer,
But seeks not them, who seek not her.
Yield to the Lord with simple heart,
All that thou hast, and all thou art;
Renounce all strength but strength Divine,
And peace shall be for ever thine;
Behold the path that Jesus trod...
My path till I go home to God.
Love Constitutes My Crime
Love constitutes my Crime,
For this they keep me here,
Imprisoned thus so long a time
For Him I hold so dear;
And yet I am, as when I came,
The subject of this holy flame.
How can I better grow,
How from my own heart fly?
Those who imprison me should know
True love can never die:
Yea, tread and crush it with disdain,
And it will live and burn again.
And am I then to blame?
He's always in my sight;
And having once inspired the flame,
He always keeps it bright:
For this they spite me and reprove,
Because I cannot cease to love.
What power shall dim its ray?
Dropped burning from above!
Eternal life shall ne'er decay;
God is the life of love;
And when its source of life is o'er,
And only then, twill shine no more.
The Light Above Us
There is a light in yonder skies,
A light unseen by outward eyes;
But bright and clear to inward sense,
It shines, the star of Providence.
The radiance of the central throne,
It comes from God and God alone;
The ray that never yet grew pale,
The star that "Shines within the veil."
And faith, unchecked by earthly fears,
Shall lift its eyes, though filled with tears,
And while around It is dark as night,
Untired, shall mark that heavenly light.
In vain they smite me, men but do
What God permits with different view;
To outward sight they wield the rod,
But faith proclaims it all of God.
Unmoved then, let me keep my way,
Supported by that cheering ray,
Which shining distant, renders clear
The clouds and darkness gathering near.
A Little Bird Am I
A little bird I am
Shut from the fields of air;
And in my cage I sit and sing
To Him who placed me there;
Well pleased a prisoner to be,
Because, my God it pleases Thee.
Nought have I else to do,
I sing the whole day long;
And He whom most I love to please,
Doth listen to my song;
He caught and bound my wandering wing,
But still He bends to hear me sing.
Thou hast an ear to hear,
A heart to love and bless;
And though my notes were e'er so crude,
Thou wouldst not hear the less;
Because Thou knowest as they fall,
That love, sweet love, inspires them all.
My cage confines me round,
Abroad I cannot flee;
But though my wing is closely bound,
My heart's at liberty.
My prison walls cannot control
The flight, the freedom of the soul.
Oh! it is good to soar
These bolts and bars above,
To Him whose purpose I adore,
Whose providence I love;
And in Thy mighty will to find
The joy, the freedom of the mind.
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I watched this just now. I think I understand the difference in your explanation of holiness and righteousness and the lower walk vs the higher walk.
My questions are
Can you stop sinning in lower righteousness?
Do early church fathers (1st-3rd) centuries talk about higher and lower walk or righteousness and holiness similarly?
That's great sister. Without knowing this distinction we run the risk of knowing neither and even transgressing both.
No. One can be weaned gradually from sinful behaviour but never be fully freed from sin. The righteous sin...Only the saint walks without sin in resurrection life.
There is a lot of emphasis on holiness in the early church fathers. I don't think they needed to focus on the difference between holiness and righteousness so much in those days since they didn't have the powers of blindness over them as we do now. We have strayed FAR from the path of holiness....and for many, far from the path of righteousness. In this way we could be seen as having neither...neither hot (holy) nor cold (righteous).
Throughout history we see the confusion of the 2 arising with Augustine vs Pelagius...and Calvin and Arminius. Each arguing a holy standard AGAINST a righteous standard. So we have gone backward over time.
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Yes. A gift of grace...power from heaven to be translated into the kingdom realm...to walk as Jesus walked in an eternal kind of life.
We seek God's face for the higher walk...asking, seeking, knocking...seeking first the kingdom and His righteousness (in holiness).
A holy walk is one that is in 2 dimensions at once. The heavenly dimension illuminating the daily walk...walking in an eternal light by the power of grace. God said....My grace is sufficient for you. Even the smallest walk in grace overcomes all sin. The challenge is to remain humble and God-fearing through all this. Let not pride be lifted up in the soul as the Spirit takes a person to walk in high places in Christ.
So you are going about daily life, just with a supernatural power, right?
Or are you literally in the Kingdom?
She was a Quietism believer. Catholic or Protestant it did not matter for her. Longing to God can't be judged but Quietism is a choice killing your basic human needs as dedication to God.
My husband and I have been on a journey. We have rejected the churches, rejected a lot of false teaching, and want to be sinless and perfect.
Part of me struggles, wishing this could be achieved just by our efforts. Perhaps we do need to seek God for the next stage of our Christian lives. I will be paying attention for what may help us in your teaching.
Yes, but usually someone who walks in the Spirit is very busy with ministry of some sort.
I'm not presently walking at that level. I have been learning righteousness for the past few decades. I am doing now what I couldn't do before...gathering the dew of the morning until the rain falls.
Bless you both in the Lord. My ministry involves saving the souls of those who are born of the Spirit...encouraging these to ADD humility and fear of the Lord...basically learning righteousness...to SUPPORT in character what God is giving in grace gifting. Unless we return righteousness to God we are trying to build with unrighteousness..unless we are actually walking in the Spirit, of course.
As Paul says...whether we are present (with the Lord) or absent (in the lower walk) we do all to at least be acceptable to Him. IOW...if we can't walk in holiness, AT LEAST let us walk in righteousness...making a profit for God with the money-changers (the righteous) if not with the full stature of Christ in holiness. :) <><
It's the difference between walking in the Spirit and not walking in the Spirit.....if you walk in the Spirit you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. And it costs to get there......as the bible says it is through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom of God. I find it helpful and much less confusing to stick to biblical terminology. Different people may use their own words to describe something, but we need to be able to see it in scripture....the plumbline of God's word, and that way too He gets the glory because it is nobody's invention but His.
Thanks brother...I did manage to find it on-line and have started reading it.
Someone who actually understands and has experienced what the bible is talking about will be able to use other words. It is the indoctrinated ones who can only respond to verses learned by rote...like a Pavlov's dog sort of thing. As soon as you take the indoctrinated one outside the realm of bible-speak...these become lost and confused, not seeing the parallel or the instruction in truth and reality.
As for walking in the Spirit...that is a lot more rare than people may think. What is more common is to be led by the Spirit at various times. Long before someone is caught up into the kingdom walk, there are times of touches from God...as samples of His grace. The worst thing a person can do is then to justify themselves by these encounters with God. Otherwise why would those who say Lord Lord and had done miraculous things still be rejected as not knowing the Lord?
We will be judged against our standard of judging ourselves and others. If we think we are saints, when we still walk in our own imaginations...there is the wrath of God to come. If we claim nothing and leave room for truth and holiness we don't yet know....then there is hope for us.
Yes, we may witness of our experience in our own words, and that is what most do, but teaching I believe is another thing. Those who teach, are hopefully teaching God's word, not their own word. Anyone may "use" their own descriptive terminology to help their own or someone else's understanding, but that is not what we are to rely on and stand on.....people need to be able to relate what is being taught with scripture in order to confirm or test what is being taught. The only solid ground we have to walk on is God's word. I can't stand on what anyone says unless it is confirmed by the word of God.
It may be indoctrination and rote to some, but it is not indoctrination and rote when the Lord is speaking to us through the scriptures and giving us understanding of it by His Spirit who is our Teacher. The entrance of the word gives light....it is alive and active. And I believe we do need to be speaking the same language, the language that God speaks.
I agree that it is far too rare. The church is not being taught or challenged enough to grow and get hold of everything the Lord has accomplished and made possible. And since it is costly, not everyone is willing....think that is just a plain truth. David needed to pray for a willing heart. Yes, we need to measure ourselves honestly by the word of God, not trying to gloss over or justify ourselves.....looking in the mirror and being honest about where we fall short, and then seeking the Lord for whatever or however we still lack.
I don't entirely disagree, but I believe God will judge each soul justly......every believers' situation and battle is not the same. Some even die before having a chance to grow much (eg, we know the thief on the cross was not subject to wrath). Think it's going too far to claim nothing.....otherwise we have nothing to be grateful for and I believe the Lord would have us grateful. Being grateful for what we have been given doesn't preclude us reaching and seeking for what we still don't have.
Most people read the bible without any depth of understanding, or ANY understanding at all. Using modern parallels can be very helpful if the person using them DOES UNDERSTAND. That's the difference. While you might cite the bible all day long...that doesn't mean you understand anything. It just means you are repeating what you have learned from men, or what your intellect prefers.
But real teachers can use real examples. An example of this is my using the law of flight overcoming the law of gravity....being the same nature as the law of life in Christ overcoming the law of sin and death...
This is helpful for people who don't understand Paul's liberal use of law to mean many different things.
As someone who actually knows what the bible is speaking of...I can use other examples. But let not many be teachers.
Again, any Protestant or the odd Catholic reading the bible will use their freedom of thought to interpret whatever they prefer into the text. The bible does NOT get the final say...God does. Only the Spirit knows the truth. And very few people have anything but a little taste of that.
Repentance first...doing the same thing with more feeling won't help.
Being grateful for something and naming and claiming something based on that something is VERY different, unless one lives for the ego and by the ego. Then, these may amount to the same thing.
Most people read the bible without any depth of understanding, or ANY understanding at all. Using modern parallels can be very helpful if the person using them DOES UNDERSTAND. That's the difference. While you might cite the bible all day long...that doesn't mean you understand anything. It just means you are repeating what you have learned from men, or what your intellect prefers.
But real teachers can use real examples. An example of this is my using the law of flight overcoming the law of gravity....being the same nature as the law of life in Christ overcoming the law of sin and death...
This is helpful for people who don't understand Paul's liberal use of law to mean many different things.
As someone who actually knows what the bible is speaking of...I can use other examples. But let not many be teachers.
Again, any Protestant or the odd Catholic reading the bible will use their freedom of thought to interpret whatever they prefer into the text. The bible does NOT get the final say...God does. Only the Spirit knows the truth. And very few people have anything but a little taste of that.
Repentance first...doing the same thing with more feeling won't help.
Being grateful for something and naming and claiming something based on that something is VERY different, unless one lives for the ego and by the ego. Then, these may amount to the same thing.
I believe the glory is all God's, not ours....there is very good reason why we will lay our crowns at His feet. We are HIS workmanship and what do we ever have that we didn't RECEIVE from Him? Therefore, ask, seek and knock. He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete/perfect/finish it. Oh taste and see that the Lord is good..........I believe this is to enCOURAGE us, because it takes courage to let go of self.
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