With some people...it's all about getting what you want...religion style. The religious privilege status spills over pills over any kind of communication.
Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2
- Thread starter Episkopos
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bdavidc
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- Mar 31, 2025
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@Episkopos, this is not a minor disagreement over terminology. You are teaching false doctrine about the very basis of justification, and Scripture directly contradicts you.
You said, “It is NOT the death of Christ that justifies us.” Romans 5:9 says the exact opposite: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Verse 10 continues, “when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.” You do not get to tell people Christ’s death does not justify when Scripture says we are “justified by his blood” and “reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”
Paul also says, “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins” (Ephesians 1:7). Peter says Christ “bare our sins in his own body on the tree” (1 Peter 2:24). Paul summarizes the gospel by saying, “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3). The cross is not primarily about teaching us how to kill our outer nature. Christ died as the sacrifice for our sins.
You have also said that we are saved “by grace through faithfulness as well as faith.” Again, that is not what Scripture says. “For by grace are ye saved through faith...Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Romans 4:5 is even more direct: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Faithfulness and obedience matter in the Christian life, but they are the fruit of salvation, not an additional basis for justification. When you add our faithfulness to faith as part of how we are saved, you are adding human performance to the finished work of Christ.
Your treatment of 2 Corinthians 5:21 is just as serious. The text says, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” The context identifies God as the One reconciling us to Himself through Christ. You cannot rewrite that into Christ being made sin “by us” or change “that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” into something more compatible with your system. That is not what the passage says.
You keep trying to move justification away from what Christ accomplished for the sinner and toward what happens in the believer through obedience, crucifixion of the flesh, faithfulness, and a supposed higher spiritual walk. That is exactly where your teaching goes wrong. Sanctification is biblical. Putting sin to death is biblical. Following Christ in obedience is biblical. None of those things becomes the ground upon which God justifies the ungodly.
Paul warned about those who “pervert the gospel of Christ” and said that anyone preaching another gospel is under condemnation (Galatians 1:7-9). That warning should be taken seriously. I am not saying this because I dislike your theology. I am saying it because you are publicly contradicting clear passages about Christ’s blood, His death for our sins, and justification by faith apart from works.
Stop forcing Scripture into your system. Let the text say what it says.
Christ died for our sins. We are justified by His blood. God justifies the ungodly who believes. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by our works, faithfulness, or spiritual attainment.
Anything that moves the basis of justification away from Christ’s finished work and places any part of it on human performance is false teaching.
You said, “It is NOT the death of Christ that justifies us.” Romans 5:9 says the exact opposite: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Verse 10 continues, “when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.” You do not get to tell people Christ’s death does not justify when Scripture says we are “justified by his blood” and “reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”
Paul also says, “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins” (Ephesians 1:7). Peter says Christ “bare our sins in his own body on the tree” (1 Peter 2:24). Paul summarizes the gospel by saying, “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3). The cross is not primarily about teaching us how to kill our outer nature. Christ died as the sacrifice for our sins.
You have also said that we are saved “by grace through faithfulness as well as faith.” Again, that is not what Scripture says. “For by grace are ye saved through faith...Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Romans 4:5 is even more direct: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Faithfulness and obedience matter in the Christian life, but they are the fruit of salvation, not an additional basis for justification. When you add our faithfulness to faith as part of how we are saved, you are adding human performance to the finished work of Christ.
Your treatment of 2 Corinthians 5:21 is just as serious. The text says, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” The context identifies God as the One reconciling us to Himself through Christ. You cannot rewrite that into Christ being made sin “by us” or change “that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” into something more compatible with your system. That is not what the passage says.
You keep trying to move justification away from what Christ accomplished for the sinner and toward what happens in the believer through obedience, crucifixion of the flesh, faithfulness, and a supposed higher spiritual walk. That is exactly where your teaching goes wrong. Sanctification is biblical. Putting sin to death is biblical. Following Christ in obedience is biblical. None of those things becomes the ground upon which God justifies the ungodly.
Paul warned about those who “pervert the gospel of Christ” and said that anyone preaching another gospel is under condemnation (Galatians 1:7-9). That warning should be taken seriously. I am not saying this because I dislike your theology. I am saying it because you are publicly contradicting clear passages about Christ’s blood, His death for our sins, and justification by faith apart from works.
Stop forcing Scripture into your system. Let the text say what it says.
Christ died for our sins. We are justified by His blood. God justifies the ungodly who believes. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by our works, faithfulness, or spiritual attainment.
Anything that moves the basis of justification away from Christ’s finished work and places any part of it on human performance is false teaching.
It is righteousness UNTO holiness.....and I don't consider that either is climbed into by human means.
We have been given a clear and simple picture of having to go through the wilderness and die to our old man before entering the Promised Land so to speak, not the other way around. Trying to put the cart before the horse is out of God's order....it's out of His wisdom and way. Jesus was offered a kingdom by Satan in a way that would avoid the cross (death) and He refused it, instead obeying the will of the Father. God's way is not man's (pagan) ways.
And your teaching IS unorthodox obviously, (not the holiness part so much in principle, but the other things for sure) and much more suited to the Unorthodox forum.
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
We certainly know your ears are good. You can hear a whistle (claiming modestly, of course, not to be a whistle then wiping its‘ mouth and claiming: no one has caught me or can prove any wrong in me!) from a mile away.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Maybe in your mind it may tel you, but you are wrong.
Do you not know who the he is who made Jesus to be our sin? Do you thinkk it is someone other than God the Father?
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Personal pronouns refer to people.
So tell me if this is wrong.
For God made Jesus to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we believers would be made the righteousness of God in Jesus.
Now tell me where there is a mistranslation and why.
I have no idea what you are saying here. Could you say this a different way?
Much love!
Last edited:
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
Sorry Epi.......but see here the passage below? This is the way of the cross...wilderness, sufferings/tribulations. It is through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom of God. I've been so struck recently noticing how much the bible speaks on this, the theme of suffering. I mean I've read it all before, but for some reason hadn't noticed just how prevalent it is in the scriptures. God has to deal with our flesh first and like Paul there is always the need for thorns in the flesh at times, as God is looking out for our soul. Not good to bypass this process of the cross. We need to submit to it. Yes, we are to put on Christ, and I'm sure most of us do in some measure, to some degree or depth and at various times, according to our growth. Of course we are to increase. And at some point some will become "you who are spiritual."
Heb 12:4-11
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
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