With some people...it's all about getting what you want...religion style. The religious privilege status spills over pills over any kind of communication.
Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2
- Thread starter Episkopos
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bdavidc
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- Mar 31, 2025
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@Episkopos, this is not a minor disagreement over terminology. You are teaching false doctrine about the very basis of justification, and Scripture directly contradicts you.
You said, “It is NOT the death of Christ that justifies us.” Romans 5:9 says the exact opposite: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Verse 10 continues, “when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.” You do not get to tell people Christ’s death does not justify when Scripture says we are “justified by his blood” and “reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”
Paul also says, “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins” (Ephesians 1:7). Peter says Christ “bare our sins in his own body on the tree” (1 Peter 2:24). Paul summarizes the gospel by saying, “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3). The cross is not primarily about teaching us how to kill our outer nature. Christ died as the sacrifice for our sins.
You have also said that we are saved “by grace through faithfulness as well as faith.” Again, that is not what Scripture says. “For by grace are ye saved through faith...Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Romans 4:5 is even more direct: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Faithfulness and obedience matter in the Christian life, but they are the fruit of salvation, not an additional basis for justification. When you add our faithfulness to faith as part of how we are saved, you are adding human performance to the finished work of Christ.
Your treatment of 2 Corinthians 5:21 is just as serious. The text says, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” The context identifies God as the One reconciling us to Himself through Christ. You cannot rewrite that into Christ being made sin “by us” or change “that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” into something more compatible with your system. That is not what the passage says.
You keep trying to move justification away from what Christ accomplished for the sinner and toward what happens in the believer through obedience, crucifixion of the flesh, faithfulness, and a supposed higher spiritual walk. That is exactly where your teaching goes wrong. Sanctification is biblical. Putting sin to death is biblical. Following Christ in obedience is biblical. None of those things becomes the ground upon which God justifies the ungodly.
Paul warned about those who “pervert the gospel of Christ” and said that anyone preaching another gospel is under condemnation (Galatians 1:7-9). That warning should be taken seriously. I am not saying this because I dislike your theology. I am saying it because you are publicly contradicting clear passages about Christ’s blood, His death for our sins, and justification by faith apart from works.
Stop forcing Scripture into your system. Let the text say what it says.
Christ died for our sins. We are justified by His blood. God justifies the ungodly who believes. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by our works, faithfulness, or spiritual attainment.
Anything that moves the basis of justification away from Christ’s finished work and places any part of it on human performance is false teaching.
You said, “It is NOT the death of Christ that justifies us.” Romans 5:9 says the exact opposite: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Verse 10 continues, “when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.” You do not get to tell people Christ’s death does not justify when Scripture says we are “justified by his blood” and “reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”
Paul also says, “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins” (Ephesians 1:7). Peter says Christ “bare our sins in his own body on the tree” (1 Peter 2:24). Paul summarizes the gospel by saying, “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3). The cross is not primarily about teaching us how to kill our outer nature. Christ died as the sacrifice for our sins.
You have also said that we are saved “by grace through faithfulness as well as faith.” Again, that is not what Scripture says. “For by grace are ye saved through faith...Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Romans 4:5 is even more direct: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Faithfulness and obedience matter in the Christian life, but they are the fruit of salvation, not an additional basis for justification. When you add our faithfulness to faith as part of how we are saved, you are adding human performance to the finished work of Christ.
Your treatment of 2 Corinthians 5:21 is just as serious. The text says, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” The context identifies God as the One reconciling us to Himself through Christ. You cannot rewrite that into Christ being made sin “by us” or change “that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” into something more compatible with your system. That is not what the passage says.
You keep trying to move justification away from what Christ accomplished for the sinner and toward what happens in the believer through obedience, crucifixion of the flesh, faithfulness, and a supposed higher spiritual walk. That is exactly where your teaching goes wrong. Sanctification is biblical. Putting sin to death is biblical. Following Christ in obedience is biblical. None of those things becomes the ground upon which God justifies the ungodly.
Paul warned about those who “pervert the gospel of Christ” and said that anyone preaching another gospel is under condemnation (Galatians 1:7-9). That warning should be taken seriously. I am not saying this because I dislike your theology. I am saying it because you are publicly contradicting clear passages about Christ’s blood, His death for our sins, and justification by faith apart from works.
Stop forcing Scripture into your system. Let the text say what it says.
Christ died for our sins. We are justified by His blood. God justifies the ungodly who believes. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by our works, faithfulness, or spiritual attainment.
Anything that moves the basis of justification away from Christ’s finished work and places any part of it on human performance is false teaching.
It is righteousness UNTO holiness.....and I don't consider that either is climbed into by human means.
We have been given a clear and simple picture of having to go through the wilderness and die to our old man before entering the Promised Land so to speak, not the other way around. Trying to put the cart before the horse is out of God's order....it's out of His wisdom and way. Jesus was offered a kingdom by Satan in a way that would avoid the cross (death) and He refused it, instead obeying the will of the Father. God's way is not man's (pagan) ways.
And your teaching IS unorthodox obviously, (not the holiness part so much in principle, but the other things for sure) and much more suited to the Unorthodox forum.
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
We certainly know your ears are good. You can hear a whistle (claiming modestly, of course, not to be a whistle then wiping its‘ mouth and claiming: no one has caught me or can prove any wrong in me!) from a mile away.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Maybe in your mind it may tel you, but you are wrong.
Do you not know who the he is who made Jesus to be our sin? Do you thinkk it is someone other than God the Father?
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Personal pronouns refer to people.
So tell me if this is wrong.
For God made Jesus to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we believers would be made the righteousness of God in Jesus.
Now tell me where there is a mistranslation and why.
I have no idea what you are saying here. Could you say this a different way?
Much love!
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Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
Sorry Epi.......but see here the passage below? This is the way of the cross...wilderness, sufferings/tribulations. It is through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom of God. I've been so struck recently noticing how much the bible speaks on this, the theme of suffering. I mean I've read it all before, but for some reason hadn't noticed just how prevalent it is in the scriptures. God has to deal with our flesh first and like Paul there is always the need for thorns in the flesh at times, as God is looking out for our soul. Not good to bypass this process of the cross. We need to submit to it. Yes, we are to put on Christ, and I'm sure most of us do in some measure, to some degree or depth and at various times, according to our growth. Of course we are to increase. And at some point some will become "you who are spiritual."
Heb 12:4-11
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
I am pointing out false doctrine. Some people here live in an echo chamber where they think they are the orthodox ones....whereas the opposite is true.
Here you show a lack of understanding of the gospel. the life is in the blood...not the death.
When I posted....that if Jesus be not raised then you are still dead in your sins...people who are bible illiterate think that was MY saying and not Pauls'.
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17
Justification is from LIFE not death...
If you read the bible as a whole you will see that we are justified by the LIFE of Christ not the death. I don't think people here have reading skills but I will post a verse
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:8
You are cherry picking parts of verses...
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
What saves us...His death or His life...according to the bible?????
That word is not forgiveness...but freedom....aphesis. Look it up'
You are making SMALL points and ignoring the whole weight of the gospel. The bible supports what I say and you say I'm the heretic. You need to be de-programmed.
Yes...but that in itself doesn't save us...as Paul says. It is the justification of life. Why do you embrace death and shun Christ's life is BEYOND ME. Especially as the bible puts all the emphasis on eternal life...not the transition phase of death.
I want to talk to an honest person...
Some people here have a HARD time with the truth...but it was prophesied in these times that few if any will be able to endure sound doctrine. And here it is.
Why troll my threads if you want to rant and ignore what the bible says?
Why troll my threads if you want to rant and ignore what the bible says?
There is a HUGE misunderstanding among the unlearned here (and elsewhere) concerning what is meant by being justified by the blood of Christ...or washing our garments in His blood. Many here follow a death religion as opposed to having a LIFE from God. Why does no one seek God anymore? Well, people think that the life of Christ is not important...no they want a dead body. They want a dead Christ. They want to feed on a corpse.
But Jesus IS ALIVE. He is RISEN....The blood of Christ is the LIFE of Christ. We partake of His LIFE for justification. We enter into His LIFE by the Spirit. His holiness is found in His life...not His death. Jesus was only dead for 3 days...and people want to live their lives in THAT phase...the dead part. Why not join Christ in His life? He offers us life more abundantly. Does He offer us His death more abundantly?
Eating His flesh...means DOING what He says. Drinking His blood means to enter into Him and partake of His life. We are not to feed on a dead body.
That is what is taught in the bible. And that is what gives us victory over sin, the world and the devil. We reign in Life...not death. Death is a transitional phase. But unless it leads to life...it remains dead.
But Jesus IS ALIVE. He is RISEN....The blood of Christ is the LIFE of Christ. We partake of His LIFE for justification. We enter into His LIFE by the Spirit. His holiness is found in His life...not His death. Jesus was only dead for 3 days...and people want to live their lives in THAT phase...the dead part. Why not join Christ in His life? He offers us life more abundantly. Does He offer us His death more abundantly?
Eating His flesh...means DOING what He says. Drinking His blood means to enter into Him and partake of His life. We are not to feed on a dead body.
That is what is taught in the bible. And that is what gives us victory over sin, the world and the devil. We reign in Life...not death. Death is a transitional phase. But unless it leads to life...it remains dead.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. Romans 4:25
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who
Romans 8:28-34
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1st Corinthian 6:11
but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Romans 4:23-25
So that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. Galatians 2:16
Do you see that...RAISED for our justification? Is that the death of Jesus or the resurrection life of Jesus given to us by grace through faith?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
It goes full circle.
Does faith in Yeshua save us? Does repentance save us? Does Baptism save us? Does the Bread and Wine Ritual save us? Does obedience save us? Does helping those in need save us? Take out one see what happens.
Forgiveness, Redemption, Substitution, Justification, Grace, Propitiation, Adoption, Salvation, Reconciliation, Sanctification......Non of this would happen without the sacrifice that Yeshua made on the cross.
Did Yeshua have to resurrect for us to be saved? The scriptures do not say so. His resurrection gave confidence and hope. It is the assurance that He will resurrect us that matters.
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Praise Yeshua for His sacrifice. Hebrews 10:10
And the new covenant is not based just on a better sacrifice that leaves us dead in our sins. The WHOLE gospel centers on Jesus' resurrection...not His death.
So you are fully missing what the gospel is about..and the New Covenant. You are being satisfied with an improvement of the Old Covenant sacrificial system....that never gave people life.
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit (life) be rather glorious? 2 Cor. 3:7-8
You are still trying to formulate a religion that leaves an actual eternal life out of the equation. It's just dead religion.
“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” - Proverbs 14:12
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2 cor. 3:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises Heb 8:6
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Heb 10:20 (not a dead way)
What will Jesus (Who is alive) say to those who built their hopes on a dead Christ?
Can't believe someone would pit the death of Christ against His resurrection. And call His death nothing but an "improvement" on the old sacrificial system...?.. The new covenant is ratified by His blood. But I consider this to be just another manufactured argument for the purpose of deflection and distraction.
The point is that we must also pass through His death....be conformed to it.....that is the preparation for resurrection life. God's way. And it is kind of a concurrent thing:
2Co 4:8-11
We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
Can't have one without the other, they go together like a horse and carriage.
The "friend" who got ejected from the wedding feast because he wasn't wearing the right garment, I think it doesn't necessarily mean it had to be the end for him.....think maybe he just needed to go back to where he was and start over as it were and submit to the Lord dealing with his flesh. Believe that is why he was called "friend" I think....always had wondered about that.
Yesterday morning for the first time I actually saw and felt that the Lord's discipline in my life, my personal sufferings, are His LOVE for me, His CARE and keeping of my soul.....and I was being filled with the feeling of His love and care. Before that I always experienced suffering to be punitive and vengeful, and a sign of rejection....that is how it always felt to me and made it that much difficult to bear. Several months ago the Holy Spirit had spoken to me very clearly and unmistakably and said I was afraid of suffering. I was surprised, because I had thought it was fear of other things holding me back......the Lord always knows and sees things we don't. Anyhow we are helpless to deal with these obstacles, whatever they might be with any individual, without the Lord's help. We need to seek His help with them...what is impossible without Him is possible with Him. And these things always do look impossible. I am very encouraged to know He is on the case in my instance.
That's what you are doing. I'm saying that death has been swallowed up by life. And that life is better than death...and you have a conniption.
That's you twisting my words as usual in a serpentine kind of way. WITHOUT the resurrection of Christ then Jesus's death is only an improvement on the old system based on death.
Honest people see how you look to condemn through dishonesty...like your friend Behold does... Birds of a feather mock together.
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