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Rewards in Heaven?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by David323, Mar 17, 2007.

  1. David323

    David323 New Member

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    I have heard once saved we will be rewarded for our good works. I understand what that might be on earth but what kind of rewards would that mean in Heaven? Would those rewards be reduced by sins commited after being saved? Would we be rewarded for anything good done before being saved? I have read most of the Bible but I'm unclear on this.
     
  2. kendal

    kendal New Member

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    The humbler you become in Christ, the closer the connection you have with Him, the higher you will be in the kingdom of heaven. Heaven isn't looking for pomp and self-exultation, it is looking for the meek and lowly character of our Redeemer.God bless
     
  3. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    I would suggest that this is not quite accurate, the truth may be bound up in the word 'perfect' or 'perfection'. Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.Is this a reasonable request? Or are we lacking in our word skills, depending upon Webster to define our words, rather than the Lord?AND YET, NO DOUBT, WE READ OF REWARD AND THE LOOSING OF IT.
     
  4. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Our good works are the thread in our white robes, not many good deed, miniskirt, many good deed, flowing robe... I will look up the verse, but maybe ssomeone know it...til then. Also during the milennial there will be rulers and teachers.
     
  5. blakey

    blakey New Member

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    We are not saved by works, but by the grace of God. Jesus told us to repent and follow him, try to live a christ-like life, but you must accept the Lord your God as your personal lord and saviour.God Bless
     
  6. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Yes David323, you can lose your reward. Read Ph'p 3. And in Rev. we find it is the overcomers who have crowns.Reward is never equated to Salvation, there is nothing we can do to earn Salvation, it is of God. But Reward is likened to a prize or a crown which can be won or lost. Again brings us back to the word perfect, which never means to get better and better, or to not fall short, but to continue on to the end. Reward is for those who continue on to the end, who endure as it were, wherein, the apostle, at the end of his life, was permitted to use the very same word the Lord used on the tree when He declared 'It is finished'.I don[t know of any degrees of sin, or degrees of reward, it is just, do we continue on until the end, do we reach the end, do we touch the mark. And this race is different than man's race (reward is likened to a race in Scripture), in this race you can get disqualified by not staying in the lines, but in this race one is rewarded for stopping to pick someone up along the way. Be we are warned too, that we are to cast aside every weight that so easily besets us. What this weight is is in dispute, however I believe Paul tells us what these weights are very clearly, why, in order to obtain to those great heights revealed in Ephesians, even Paul, a Jew, had to lay aside all that he counted as gain during the Acts, namely, his Jewishness. And it is the speaking to these different callings, or administrations (Biblically called dispensations or stewardships) which cause much confusion. Ph'p 3 tells this with some strength, likewise, Col.2 makes known that even what God deemed true for a previous dispensation was counted as the same as man's inventions in the new administration.Israel has a reward, those overcomers throughout the Bible along with those graphed into Israel during the Acts are counted with those rewarded as overcomers, and lastly it is revealed that there is a company who have a reward in heavenly places. These spheres of blessings are all linked to the words 'adoption', 'hope', and 'calling'.Php 3:11 if by any means I may attain unto the resurrection (exanastasis) from the dead. We miss this in English, but the Greek bears out the interpretation of attaining "unto the out resurrection out from among the dead ones".
     
  7. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Matthew 16:24-28Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Reward here is in the sense of "render to." The Greek here is apodidomi and can be found in Strong's #G0591. Heaven itself is the reward - that fact that our name will be found in the Book of Life and we will not be blotted out. That's the biggest reward - to walk with the Father all of your spiritual life. It won't be like here on Earth where we're concerned with having it all. What bet alluded to is correct though. Revelation 19:8 (Speaking of the Bride of Christ.)And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. The word white here is a little off. The Greek is lampros - that alone should give you a clue to the root of the word. However, this is the first clue to what bets spoke about. Jesus speaks to the church of Laodecia here but it's a warning to us all. This was one of the churches that was not found favorable in the sight of the Lord: Revelation 3:16-18I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. There's your second clue. This isn't the clothing of this world - this is that white garment that we'll have in the spiritual world. There is a much better reference that I need to find because it directly references the length. Either bet or I will find it for you and post it here.
     
  8. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    I get confused when people say Christ taught that people have the hope of being in heavenly places. Perhaps I am not following. I don't think Christ ever taught that in His earthly ministry. It certainly isn't an OT kingdom teaching. And in Acts, we find them teaching the same kingdom promises that Christ taught, namely the OT kingdom promise in the earth.While Peter says their reward is held in store for them in heaven, then yes, that is where their reward is, it is with Christ, and He will bring it with Him when He comes to the earth, as Rev. and others reveal. Being with Christ in heaven is quite different than what the OT teaches, and what the promises of the father could hold as truth.Throughout the OT, the kingdom promised is one of earth, and one in resurrection. In the book of Hebrews, we read an account that is presented in such a matter of fact way, and addressed to the Hebrew people, that Abraham's descendants must have had teachings and training in what Abraham desired, namely a country that is heavenly, which is New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven to the earth seems to indicate that the Hebrews have more common knowledge than non Hebrews would be aware of. I do not see Christ teaching that the Jews have any calling beyond the hope of the promises of the OT. There are no kingdom teachings that reach as high as the heavens until after Acts has concluded Israel in blindness and hardness of heart. Then it is given for the apostle to make know what is the, RV reading, dispensation of the mystery; AV reads, fellowship of the mystery.I see this problem allot. Do you all not see people saying they believe they are going to heaven, but then turn right around and place themselves on earth as Israelites, or as Israelite priests? Most of these people are clearly not even Jews, but the say they are Jews, or some Hebrew tribe or something.Either way, it is the Lord's decision, all we can do is honour that which the Lord has made. If He has made some meet to inherit the earth, and others meet to inherit the heavenly Jerusalem, and also that the heavenly places be inhabited also by an adoption of His choosing, all we can do is try to rightly divide this word of truth which we hold so dear, allowing for both the heaven and the earth to be inhabited as the Lord has defined them.Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: Eph 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, Eph 1:8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, Eph 1:9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him Eph 1:10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his willEph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, Eph 3:15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,* ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5)The Kingdom* ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26)The Bride* ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3)The Body
     
  9. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Well since we're going to play the specific word game now... I define heaven as it is Biblically defined - where God's throne is. It appears as such in both the OT and NT. Isaiah 66:1 and Matthew 5:34-35 are excellent reference points for that. I like to think of heaven as a different dimension - that's the best analogy we have in our vocabulary. God and his angels are all around us - witness the stories of Jacob and Elijah where he was able to peel back that layer for them to see. It happens again in the OT when Paul was caught up to the third heaven. Getting back to what I mean though is found in the last verses of Ezekiel. Chapters 40 on cover the millenium and the final verse leaves us with this: Ezekiel 48:35It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there. YHVH Shammah is the name. He dwells there.
    I do not see Christ teaching that the Jews have any calling beyond the hope of the promises of the OT. There are no kingdom teachings that reach as high as the heavens until after Acts has concluded Israel in blindness and hardness of heart. Then it is given for the apostle to make know what is the, RV reading, dispensation of the mystery; AV reads, fellowship of the mystery.
    Hebrews 13:8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. I John 1:18-19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, When God wrote that OT through these prophets and men of God he did so with Christ already there. When God created this world, Christ was there.
    I see this problem allot. Do you all not see people saying they believe they are going to heaven, but then turn right around and place themselves on earth as Israelites, or as Israelite priests? Most of these people are clearly not even Jews, but the say they are Jews, or some Hebrew tribe or something.
    That's almost an apples to oranges comparison. Salvation is open to all. We are very ignorant of our past - history is molded to make the Israelites some small little tribe and it's part of the corruption of this world. God doesn't tell lies and when he said he'd make Abraham's seed as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand in the seashore He did it. 600,000 fighting men (and fighting men alone) crossed in the Exodus - clearly women and children would have been there as well and they were not numbered. Where did all these people go? The Bible doesn't lie. Science says Israel was small - someone's not telling the truth and it ain't God.
     
  10. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Word games?I believe the Bible is full of words, and that we should study them. I also believe that God has chosen His words and purified them to the extent that if some might be found damaged in one place, the other places will clarify the situation for all those who prayerfully desire truth. Can we not study them without it being something else? Surely none of us have learned all that is written or received all that the Lord has to reveal, moreover, we need to look at all the words, how they are used, and who they were written to. There are some words written after Acts that say the words must be rightly divided before we can have truth. This is written to believers.Now, Christ did use the word heaven, I would never dispute this, but did He teach anything about going to heaven when you are resurrected? Did He? Or did He teach His Israelite disciples to pray that things be done on earth? Did Christ teach anything that is not in the OT, such as going to heaven?Meanwhile, we know that that city comes down from heaven to the earth, right? So, is the heavenly city of Rev. and Ez. the same as far above all heavens?Heaven is not a city, and far above all heavens is higher still. And just because the Lord did not choose to reveal that some are blessed in heavenly places until after Acts does not void what is written. The Lord went much further than that even, and the apostle goes on to tell us that it is this mystery which he is sent to reveal to all the nations which completes the word of God. Of course, the apostle is inspired, and does elaborate on exactly what this position is, calling it the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, saying it was 'hid from ages (of time) and from generations (of men) but (emphatically) now made known' (after Israel goes into blindness at Acts 28:25-28).Again, if we stick to God's definitions, we find that some are indeed blessed in heavenly places, but not only so, they are seen seated with Christ there. And then there is the heavenly city, and those blessed therein, while yet another company is blessed on the earth.The only time we find anyone blessed with Christ 'in tois epouraniois' in the heavenly places, is in the letter written after Acts, while Paul is in prison, but this time Paul is not a prisoner for the hope of Israel, he is a prisoner of the Lord Christ Jesus for the hope of you gentiles.Now unless heaven and far above all heavens is the same as a city which comes to the earth, then they are different. Does anyone deny that it is written that some are blessed in the earth in resurrection? or in the heavenly city in resurrection, or in heavenly places in resurrection? Are not each of these spheres of blessing given in specific details, and not only so, but to specific peoples are they not written to?Do we have any instructions to mix these differences together, or do we honour what God has made separate? What do we do?Paul said in Colossians 1:25 that God chose him to be the vessel by which He would fulfill (Greek pleroo, "complete") the Word of God. That's what he did - with the revelation of the mystery [secret] given to him, God had done just that. Colossians is the sister letter to the Ephesians, which introduces a newly created body which is blessed in the heavenly places. Don't take my word for it, search and see.
    Salvation is open to all.
    Exactly, but the Bible does not reveal that all are blessed in the same sphere of blessing does it? In fact, while we are looking at words the Holy Spirit teacheth, what kind of church is revealed after Acts? Is it a woman, a wife, a bride, a she, a her, or a woman of any kind? or, is it 'one new man', and a perfect (full grown) anēr (Eph. 4:13). What does, Biblically, anēr mean? * ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5)The Kingdom* ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26)The Bride* ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3)The Body
     
  11. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Surely you know that as a follow of Christ the OT and NT go hand in hand? One book does not teach against the other and both teach the same message if you look at the words. Christ was around when God wrote the OT, afterall. The Bible tells us that. I guess I need you to elaborate a bit here on what you are saying. Quite frankly, and with all due proper respect, you make statements in a very lengthy and roundabout manner and you admittedly lose me a bit in this. I'm assuming from what you're saying that you believe in a difference of "rewards" for different races (ie: the Israelites associated with the OT and gentile Christians moreso with the NT)? Heaven is not a city, but the Bible says the name of that city will be roughly "God (YHVH) dwells there." We know from several verses that heaven is where God's throne is. I'll let everyone do the logic to complete what God has told us.
     
  12. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Yes, I was thinking on how I might break some of this down. I agree that God does not teach against His own teachings, yet we do read that God does reveal different instructions to different people at different times, all in accord with His divine mercies and grace. See Heb 1:1; Eph 1:5, Eph 1:9, Eph 1:11, &c. &c.I am sorry that I cannot get this shorter, there is nothing more I can leave out ~ but here goes nthing ~Adoption from the Greek means, “to place as a son”. It appears there are three different aspects of adoption. All I ask is that you search and see.THIS NEXT PART IS OF THE MOST UTMOST IMPORT ~ In the days of Christ, a will, where an adoption would be made legal, could neither be added to nor subtracted from once it was made. It was of no private affair, but openly public and binding forever. This has been thoroughly proven by the excavations of the area.The three aspects are the Israelites, those of the promise from Abraham’s seed, and those of the Church. Israel, to the exclusion of everyone else has the adoption. But, we are told those of Galatia have the adoption, then we are further told in Ephesians, those of the mystery whose calling is in heavenly places; that they have the adoption.Three aspects. The seed of Israel, the seed of promise, and the church. We shall have to prove this, of course. Why would we need to? Because, it appears that each of these three have different blessings. They do not all stand before the same glory. They do not all have the same hope. Now, when we say that we “hope” to go to the big game next year, well, that is not the way the word hope is used in the Bible. In the Bible, when the word “hope” is used, it is always a hope for something known and understood as promised and sure, looking forward to the day the promise is received.Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;Here, it is not to spiritual people, nor the church, but the flesh kinsman of Israel. Israel was the firstborn of all the nations [Gen10] even though there were 70 other nations who pre-existed Israel. So, this is one aspect of blessing. Their hope, their glory is to become priestly kings. Below a “figure of speech” is used. For there will not be kings and priests, as it should be rendered “priestly kings”.Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.At the second coming they shall look upon whom they had pierced, while they now await the time when His feet shall touch the Mt of Olives [Zec].Paul will tell the Israelites (and us by our reading) his ministry is going out to the gentiles:Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:The heathen are the nations and gentiles. He is sent to preach to these. Here we have it, Peter preaching to the Jews, and Paul to the nations. These are not Israel according to the flesh, they are gentiles.Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.Paul isn’t excluding any of Israel who believed, for he later reveals that these gentiles were used to provoke Israel, and when they believed they too became incorporated into the New Covenant.Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.“There”, as used above, is a place. There, in this place, there is neither Jew nor Greek… I ask you read the verse again with this Greek understanding.Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.Both Jew and Gentile, have a promise by walking by faith.Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven…Paul will remind these of the Galatians of the law: that an ordinary man cannot alter a will, and of how much more may we expect that God shall not add or subtract from it. This is very different than the will of today, which may be altered at any time.Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.No slave was ever permitted to utter the word Abba, Father. So these Gentiles are appointed heir by promise. They could realize this promise and hope by faith.Paul preached to each group. To the first born Israel, first. The OT Israelites have angels beneath them. They are told the saints shall judge angels [Cor]. A kingdom of Priests, destined to be above angels. Those in Ephesians are even above power, principalities, might, dominions, thrones, but angels are not mentioned. Different aspects of blessings. The epistle that is teaming with angels is the epistle to the Hebrews. The angelic ministry is never offered to the nations of Gentiles and heathen. From Abraham to the Acts of the Apostils there is angel ministry and angel intervention.Now we have two callings, Israel and her adoption of the firstborn of nations on the earth, and to those of both Jew and Gentile who have excersized the same faith as their father Abraham, who look for a heavenly aspect of that particular promise. But we have a third aspect of promise in adoption; another calling which is a bit higher still. And this calling is the church in the epistle of the Ephesians, which differs completely to the calling and to the promise and hope.Ephesians reveals the promise Paul received in Act 26:16, of that which the Lord would "appear unto" him.Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:We are told in Mathew’s Gospel that the meek shall inherit the earth. These cannot be the same as those who will sit down at the right hand of God. So this is a new aspect of blessings. These have “all spiritual blessings”, and they are “in heavenly” places.Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:This is the only group of people who were chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world. We have in other places from the foundation, or since the foundation; but only here do we have a people chosen in Him before the foundation. We are told that He loved His children before the foundation of the world, but only in this “church” age grouping were “chosen” in Him from “before the foundation of the world”.Paul had a two-fold ministry. First he ministered as a free man, from place to place, then he called the attention to the believers of Ephesus that they should see his face no more, that he was entering into a ministry which was associated with bonds. He received, in Rome, a revelation concerning the present period; where Israel is still called Lo Ami, not my people. We are told the Gentiles were only graphed into the olive tree contrary to nature [Rom 11:24]. We have in Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.In this new calling, the Jew is a welcomed believer, but now is the church age. The keys to the kingdom of heaven were given to the Jews, not the church. But, why would I say such a thing? Lets look and see.Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.Christ sought to bring all the Houses into the New Covenant, and was sent specifically to His own kindred in the flesh. They rejected Him, and the disciples were sent out, then we come to Paul.Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,In the doctrine, Eph 1-3, he is the prisoner of the Christ Jesus, and in practice, Eph 4-6, he is the prisoner of the Lord.Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.In the doctrine, it’s a building. In the practice, it’s a body. And in both cases they are fitly joined, or framed, together.We shall want to look at three types of documents. First is the Father’s Will, then the document a slave received when he was set free, [and we’ve been set free by the blood of Christ]. The third document is the earnest of the inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. These three documents are set forth in the three verses below.Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.He has chosen and made acceptable these Gentile and Jew; if they will, to the praise of the glory of His Grace.Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,Because they trusted when they heard the word of truth, they are thereby sealed with the Spirit of Promise, which is the earnest. Again, to the Praise of His Glory. And Paul loved them for their Faith in the LORD Christ Jesus. Paul will move forward and pray for their understanding of what is the “hope” of His calling, which are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in this grouping.Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: [for the acknowledgement of Him]Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,It is not enough to know of the promise, but the promise must be afterwards acknowledged. Knowing this, that there is no greater place occupied in Heaven than that which is occupied by His Son in Glory.Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)Notice that there are no angels mentioned here, they are in Col’s, but only to be cast aside. Christ was raised, not only above angels, but above all principality and powers... Where is the church in all this, to whom it is the high calling of this dispensation? Lets us see.Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;We can see that the Gentile church age has been made acceptable to a predestined “higher calling” to show His mercies and His grace, and made this group to sit together in “the heavenly places”.Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.Lets look at this pile up of words. Exceeding, riches, grace, kindness. Exceeding is the word hyperbole, which means exaggeration, then he says riches, and then he says grace, and then he says kindness, which is the most holy word of all. When the time comes, those who believe and acknowledge by faith will be home. You will be home friend. In the highest calling, home.Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:This is the most extraordinary use of this word in scripture. Every other use of this word “gift” is of a man bringing a gift to God. But here it is God bringing a gift to man. God brings an oblation to the people. A very specific people where Christ may echo “blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” [John 20:29] .1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.Reflecting:Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.And reinforced:1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.Even the angels could not look into these high places of promise.This brings us back to v2 in Eph, where we have this promise going to these Gentile nations that in times past walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, if they believe and have faith..When we get to v 14, we notice the difference between this dispensation of grace, and “times past” when they were separate from Israel who were under the law:Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;Just before this, Paul reminds the nations in vs. 11 of how far removed they were from God AT THAT TIME, with the circumcision, and all the embodiment of the Israelites with their veils and coverings and rituals, and then the Jews maintaining this. He begins with the words “but now”, indicating the difference between that covenant which God had established with Abraham and his seed and that which the nations had never received from God.Today, in the here and the now, Israel is not the people of God, for they are Lo Ami, but God went further and said and I am not your God! Likewise the Gentiles have no covenant with God. Remember, Christ came for Israel, and they did not. The Holy Spirit was then sent, and again rejected, bring us into this period of Grace. Now we all have access. The middle wall has been broken down. In chapter 3:12 it says we have more than just access, it says we have “boldness and access”. In my view, I see this as having even more access than the Hebrews. Only one of them, once a year was ever allowed beyond the veils and curtains and into the Holy of Holies, and always covered with their white robe, all veiled symbols suggesting their separateness. All representations describe how far one is removed from Holiness. Think of the Serephim with their four wings to cover themselves. It reminds me of how humble we must be to receive Him in His stooping down to our level, using little words that we can understand; such as arm, eyes, and ears. We should remember how we stoop down with our children and lower ourselves to their level so they may grow in understanding in what we are trying to help them with, talking our baby talk. God is just doing the same thing when He is speaking with us. He is using words that we use. Words that we can understand. [but that is another study]God has given three separate groups, each their own hope and calling. Each their own blessings and glory, has broken down that middle wall of partition and broken the enmity between Jew and Gentile. Has provided yet future earthly, as well as heavenly, blessings. Some shall be priests, some will inherit the earth, and some will have a heavenly calling. There is the calling of Israel in the OT. Then the calling of the Church of God [called-out assembly] between Acts 2 and Acts 28:28. And the calling of the Church of the Mystery. To put this another way would be: some inherit the earth, some the heavenly city, and some far above all. The word ''calling'' is a correct and scriptural word used by the Spirit of God to make known these dispensational truths whereby we may know of our peculiar hope:Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.The calling “waxed gross” the hearts of the Jews when God used the Gentiles to make them jealous and thereby emulate the faith of the Gentiles and be converted [Acts 28:27].With this enlightened understanding, we may be able “to keep” the unity of the Spirit. For the one body shall not fail to stand in heavenly places with the unity of the Spirit.Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. --- 1Co 15:41 ---All I ask, is that you search and see.
     
  13. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    There was the sphyrophenician, the Cainanitish woman who received no answer from our blessed Lord and Savior when she called Him son of David, but when she called Him Lord Lord, her faith would't let Him go and He healed her child, but reminded her, calling her a dog, she was only getting the crumbs off Israel's table. According to the promises made to Abraham, if a gentile were kind to Israel they prospered, they got some crumbs, but they didn't share in Israel's hope, not unless they became a Jew, taking on the full burden of the law. So she, the Cainanitish woman, shall have life there is no doubt, but not in the kingdom, but in the earth, in paradise. The kingdom is Israel's prerogative. Then there was the centurion who wanted his son healed, and Christ said He'd never seen faith like that in Israel. Summing up, it can be said of the flesh, that of all the believers in the earth, it was Israel who were the chosen people and to whom go the covenant of the kingdom, and the promise of the fathers.We have a chosen people today too, in Ephesians, chosen. But this body of believers aren't chosen according to the flesh. No racial or national distinction, in those chosen as members of the church which is His body. The Jew isn't any better than the gentile and the gentile isn't any better than the Jew or the rest of them and so on. But up until Peter went down to the house of Cornelius the only thing a gentile could get was only crumbs, and this is where things changed a little bit. No longer did Cornelius have to be content with any crumbs, evidenced that he had entered into the kingdom promise because he received the gifts. And that made them guests at Israel's table, not the dog under the table, but a guest with Israel still first, and not a member of the family, and this is where we should have to prove it.Paul is speakingRom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.Paul is plainly saying here, that the gentiles are partakers of Israel's spiritual things, and as such need to minister to Israel in their carnal things, This letter is right at the close of the Acts period, and Paul makes is plain gentiles are made partakers of Israel's spiritual things. Saving time, if you read Rom10-11 carefully you will see Paul gives a clear picture of the position of the gentiles, quoting Scripture after Scripture, even clear back in Duet. Where Moses said His people would be moved to jealousy by a people that's not a people. And Paul is showing why these gentiles are being allowed to share at Israel's table. And that is to provoke Israel to take up their work that they were called for, that is to bear fruit. When we come to the end of Acts we see it provoked them to anger and failure. Paul quotes the foretold blessing which Israel was supposed to take up, which was never a secret:Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.And Paul makes a conclusion:Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.Now then, the point to make here, is if the church of the mystery started back in Acts, in ch10, or 13 or somewhere, then they are blessed with Abraham, are they not? According to this Scripture?...Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.Talking to the gentiles:Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.If the gentile man here in the Acts is in Christ, he is blessed with Abraham, we just read that, Israel is where the gentile gets his blessings from. That is the position of the gentile believer after Acts 10.Now after Acts 28. 28, the doctrinal position of the gentile believer is no longer with faithful Abraham, but where?Eph 1:1 ...to the faithful in Christ Jesus:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:There it is, in Christ, and not Israel's spiritual blessing, but every blessing that is spiritual in the heavens above all heavens (en tois epouraniois in Christoi), the Greek reads. So here then, is an entirely new sphere of blessing being made known for the first time in all of the Bible.In Romans we saw the prepatory outworking, where we died buried and raised with, but when we get to Ephesians we are quickened, seated and partakers of a new creation, and too, we are hid in Christ with God, even manifested with Him in Glory in Col.&c. So the position of every believer is in Christ, but the dispensational position determines whether a gentile is in the new earth, or with faithful Abraham in the New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven to the earth, or blessed in the heavenly places far above all.That just gives us a little picture there of the Acts and the gentile believers who were never allowed to go past the middle wall of partition. When walking with Peter, Cornelius would have to stop at that wall, hear what he could hear, and then wait to hear the speaker after the Jews first had heard. That is when the kingdom was in view for the hope of Israel during the period we call the Acts.But now is the mystery given after Israel rejected Paul's teachings, Paul spending a whole day preaching to them in Rome for 'the hope of Israel'. It was then, and not before, that the HS had Paul tell them then in Act 28:28 'Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it'.But if you ask most ministers what is the mystery in the prison epistles, they will tell you it is that the gentiles could receive the word of God as well as Israel. But we can see that there is more to it than that can't we? So what i wanted to get at, was that thru Acts 10 to Acts 28 there was nothing unkown happening, no secret company of believers or any new calling revealed. Paul was quoting OT prophesy to Israel and explaining it to the gentile, how God would use those gentiles to provoke Israel with, and that Israel was to be a blessing to them. We find they are blessed, not in heavenly places, but with faithful Abraham. The mystery, or secret as the word actually is, was not made known until after the Acts, and that my friends is where we come in, where we need to look if we want to know what is the hope of our calling to them that believe.Can you put yourself in Paul's place for a moment, how he would have to say, now look, I'm sorry but everything I've told you has changed. God is going to use me to tell you all from the dungeon of prison that He has had a secret kept hid from ages of time and from generations of men that gentiles would be partakers of His body and have their blessings far above all, not on the earth and not with faithful Abraham.Well, we read that all who are in Asia did foresake him, that only Luke was with him. And what were they to do if they didn't receive this word from God? Well, we can see how the churches are split, to this day even, most will not even consider that nowhere in Scripture is a Jew said to go to heaven, and that this mystery really concerns a gentile church chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.Paul writes in Eph. 2 that this church body he is revealing as 'the mystery' and as 'His body, is built upon, or on top of, the apostles and the prophets, and we can see this plainly ~Rom 16:25 'Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began'.Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,It is all written as plain as day, and yet, I can hardly find a person who will even consider it. Paul says they have to pray for understanding that it wasn't known, it was a secret 'hid in God'. But they set up, doing their own thing, fighting and fighting over their own words, trying to hold onto the Acts and the kingdom hope which was so clearly set aside when Israel was took her place amidst the nations as Lo-ammi, or, not my people and I will not be your God Hos 1-3.And we are not left to guess about when this time is, for Christ tells the Hebrews in Mat 23:39, "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."And what will that be like when He receives them again?Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
     
  14. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    There was a time before the time of Genesis... it was the time in which Satan had been the angel who guarded the throne, one of the Zoon. He was the number 1 angel in heaven and a faithful servant of God... He rebelled by desiring to sit upon the seat or throne of mercy. During the falling away, the rebellion , he took with him 1/3 of the stars or angels, the creations, the Eloheem of God. II Peter gives a description of what God did to the earth at the time. Its a short book easy to read to whole thing, so...you willl notice that all the birds and fish were killed. This is time between Genesis 1: 1 and Genesis 1:2....God refurbished the earth...and created a new thing adam... men and He put into this flesh living souls....Where did these souls come from? Nowhere will you find in the Word that God created the souls ..He just put them into the flesh He created...He had created the spiritual bodies of all creation long ago... they were the Eloheem those with Him...those that He spoke to and said "let us create man in OUR image"...This is the teaching of the AGES of the Earth. This is the explantion of the 3 heavens also, there was and will be a new heaven and a new earth each time. So were are now in the second age.It is said in the Word that it is appointed unto men one time to be born and one time to die. This is the solution God created to give the souls that had followed Satan in the rebellion a chance to repent of their sin of rebellion... Why would He do that? He loves all his creation and did not want to destroy them...Why am I telling all this in this thread... this is the only difference that God sees in regard to reward. There were three catagories of the Eloheem during the rebellion ...those who rebelled, those who fought against the rebellion and those who did nothing , just waited to see who should win in the end...Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed the in the belly I knew thee..The first age is where Jeremiah was known by God... Jeremiah had been one who fought for God against Satan. God knew He could depend on Jeremiah.So there are others that God could count on... Moshe, Mary, Noah, David, .. These are the few who lived in each generation and carried out the important things God needed done. The are those who obey no matter what... whether or not it makes sense, whether or not it is popular, whether or not it could get them in trouble with the populaiton of the earth. These are the elect.During the end of days these elect are the one who will stand in Jerusalem and speak allow the Holy Spirit to speak through them to the world. The will not believe in their mind that Satan is the antichrist or do the his work . They will be used by God to bring many to fall away from the antichrist.Now lets bring into play the last age of the earth the millenium, when Jesus will rule the earth with a rod of iron...When He come to the earth He will be bringing an army with Him Rev 14:1- these verses speak of the 144,000it says they are virgins ... this is not speaking of their physical state, but their spritual state. They are those who never worshipped Satan, in the first or second ages of the earth ... In fact they are of the Eloheem who fought against Satan.After the defeat of Satan and his being chained with his spirirt, the next thing that happens is the marriage supper of the Lamb. This is the time of celebration for the elect. The elect are those that will work for Jesus during the next 1000 years.. They are those who will govern and teach those who still have a mortal soul.Those whose eyes were never opened to the whole truth will be opened and a time of trial will be given at the end of this age... Satan will be loosed to tempt those...God only want those in eternity who have been tried and found faithful... He doesn't want to have another rebellion.He wants to give all a chance to repent. To be taught the truth without the interference of Satan. But he also want to be sure of them for the eternity and so he lets them be tempted one last time.The only difference in the way God treats , or rewards is in based on how we acted in the first earth age. And only through the end of the ages will there be a difference in that reward. After the 1000 year reign and the Great White Throne Judgement then all will have the same wonderful reward to love in peace and harmony with God in the way God chooses us to love Him forever and ever.the verse that talks of what we will take with us from this earth after we are gone is Rev. 19:8 . It is our good works.. this is not a reward, but, what we earn and can take away from this life... They become the white linen robes we wear. I will add this to this post as soon as I locate it. I thank my brother Swampfox for helping find it. But again this is not a reward, but what we earned.I know that to many this will sound like a fairly tale... thats okay ...If it doesn't sound that way to you, you may have ears to hear. You may have been one who didn't rebel, one who fought. One who God knew before your birth and is counting on you during the end of days.
     
  15. David323

    David323 New Member

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    I guess there is no simple answer. Since I consider myself a beginner Bible student, I find much of this confusing. My main interest is pleasing God. God wants us to do good works, so I will strive to do so. And yes I do know we are not saved by works. Being with the Lord will be reward enough, no matter where Heaven is. I do appreciate all the input.
     
  16. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Sorry to confuse you , but you are on the right track. You love God, love his love letter to you, THE WORD, if you would like to learn in an easy format at home try this site www.shepherdschapel.comThis site helped me to learn How to study ...They have daily study on TV and they go line by line through the whole book. I will be praying for you to please God and make Him happy. That is what we all are suppose to do and the fact that you want to do that pleases Him greatly.
     
  17. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I guess there is no simple answer. Since I consider myself a beginner Bible student, I find much of this confusing. My main interest is pleasing God. God wants us to do good works, so I will strive to do so. And yes I do know we are not saved by works. Being with the Lord will be reward enough, no matter where Heaven is. I do appreciate all the input.
    I realize those long-winded posts can be overwhelming sometime. Keep it simple and stay in the Word. I try to include Scriptural examples so you'll know where to go from there and explore on your own. Never take my word for granted, always seek the answer yourself. There's a thread on down in the forums about the verse that is in the center of the Bible, Psalms 118:8. Once again, God's letter to everyone tells you how it is. You've got the gist of it down. We all have to start somewhere. God bless!
     
  18. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Just a note, but I've cleaned up this thread in respect to the thread starter. If you want to argue about the merits or position of something else, start your own thread. Thanks.
     
  19. Shingy

    Shingy New Member

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    Heaven is the reward! What more can you want than immortality? And God sees no degree in sins. They are all equal in God's eyes. Shaving, wearing a shirt with more than one fabric, and murder are all punishable by death, so says God, but He doesn't want us to go to hell.
    28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die....32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.Ezekiel 18
    I'm not sure we'll have "brains" in heaven anyways.What if we remember earthly thoughts when we're in heaven? That could lead to sin.....
    He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” -Revelation 21:4"
     
  20. David323

    David323 New Member

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    I've understood how any sin is equally bad, but how exactly is shaving a sin? Also, I have just heard the more good deeds you do after being saved, the more reward you will receive in Heaven. Yes, just going to Heaven is all I need.
     
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