Robots and Will Worshipers

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Rudometkin

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Well, you certainly haven't gotten any less predictable.
Proverbs aren't a place to find your theology, but:

To humans belong the plans of the heart,
but from the Lord comes the proper answer of the tongue.

2 All a person’s ways seem pure to them,
but motives are weighed by the Lord.

3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do,
and he will establish your plans.
See the condition? Yes, we plan but if we don't commit it to God, our plans won't be the correct ones. Not only does this not suggest determinism, it suggests the opposite.

According to Renniks, there are certain areas in Scripture where we ought to not get our theology from. Scripture teaches otherwise.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Renniks ends by claiming that Proverbs suggests the opposite of Determinism is true, but by Renniks' own words, Proverbs isn't even a place to get your theology, so he makes no threat to Biblical Determinism there.

Proverbs is indeed a place to get your theology, and Renniks seems to ignore verse 9 which teaches that man's steps are directed by God. Therefore if we don't commit to God in our hearts nor our actions, Scripture is clear that such a case is from the Lord Himself, all in part of His own perfect plan. (Rom. 8:28)
 

Renniks

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Proverbs is indeed a place to get your theology, and Renniks seems to ignore verse 9 which teaches that man's steps are directed by God. Therefore if we don't commit to God in our hearts nor our actions, Scripture is clear that such a case is from the Lord Himself, all in part of His own perfect plan.
Perhaps you misunderstood.

Far from teaching that God controls everything, as some maintain, this verse contrasts what the Lord controls with what he chooses not to control. Humans can and do make their own plans, but the Lord directs how those plans get worked out. This does not imply that God meticulously controls everything humans do as they seek to live out their plans, only that he steers our paths in ways that best fit his purposes. God will use even wrong actions to bring about good, but that's not his desire. God's desire, as scripture tells us, is for us to be confirmed to Christ's image.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2

Obviously not everything is God's will.
 

Rudometkin

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And God creating somehow equals all controlling?

How does one arrive at that conclusion?

How one might arrive depends on where one currently stands.

Do you want to debate on whether or not God is in control of His own creative process?

From the first time God gave Adam responsibilitys, we see him given free will. He names the animals.God didn't choose the names for him.

Adam naming animals does not mean that God didn't control Adam in doing it.
 
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Rudometkin

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If I have dominion over something, that means I have multiple free choices about how to manage that thing. Where does scripture say God isn't all controlling? Pretty much everywhere. Every time man is given a command or repromanded for doing the wrong thing, or God says he has been disobeyed. God can't be disobeyed if he's controlling all the activities of everyone. For that matter, he can't be obeyed either. Because obedience suggests a choice.

Here's a teaching moment. This debate is about to go on a deeper level than you've taken it so far. We are going to distinguish metaphysical obedience from moral obedience, then I'm going to prove you wrong.

God is sometimes morally disobeyed yet He is always metaphysically obeyed. In other words, there is a difference between ontology and moral law. You seem to confuse the two. When you think 'ontology', think 'metaphysics' - it basically just refers to the most basic sense of things. Though Scripture teaches Determinism, you shouldn't even need to accept Determinism in order to understand the differences between these two concepts.

Daniel 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

This verse speaks of ontology. None can stay His hand. In other words, no one can disobey God's power. Therefore, when God causes a man to do something, it means the man metaphysically obeyed God, and it means you would be wrong if you claimed obedience requires a choice.

As a Christian, I assume you know that His moral law can be disobeyed, so I shouldn't need to establish that. We both agree sin exists.

Now all I need to do is show you atleast one case where God metaphysically caused men to morally disobey Him, and I will have proven you wrong, because this would mean that God can be disobeyed while controlling everything.

Scripture teaches that the Lord morally demanded men to not partake in acts such as the Crucifixion, yet the Crucifixion was metaphysically of His doing and will.

Exodus 20:13
Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Acts 4:27-28
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

There it is. If you are familiar enough with Scripture, you will see with these verses that God has determined by His will and caused by His power the Crucifixion - man's greatest act of evil in history.
 

Renniks

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How one might arrive depends on where one currently stands.

Do you want to debate on whether or not God is in control of His own creative process?



Adam naming animals does not mean that God didn't control Adam in doing it.
Lol, your God is a liar.

God creates ha-adam out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo), and thus man is created free.

When God takes man ha-adam and places him in the garden “to till and keep it,” he tells man, “you may freely eat of every tree of the garden but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die” (Genesis 2:15-17, RSV)
 

Renniks

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Here's a teaching moment. This debate is about to go on a deeper level than you've taken it so far. We are going to distinguish metaphysical obedience from moral obedience, then I'm going to prove you wrong.

God is sometimes morally disobeyed yet He is always metaphysically obeyed. In other words, there is a difference between ontology and moral law. You seem to confuse the two. When you think 'ontology', think 'metaphysics' - it basically just refers to the most basic sense of things. Though Scripture teaches Determinism, you shouldn't even need to accept Determinism in order to understand the differences between these two concepts.

Daniel 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

This verse speaks of ontology. None can stay His hand. In other words, no one can disobey God's power. Therefore, when God causes a man to do something, it means the man metaphysically obeyed God, and it means you would be wrong if you claimed obedience requires a choice.

As a Christian, I assume you know that His moral law can be disobeyed, so I shouldn't need to establish that. We both agree sin exists.

Now all I need to do is show you atleast one case where God metaphysically caused men to morally disobey Him, and I will have proven you wrong, because this would mean that God can be disobeyed while controlling everything.

Scripture teaches that the Lord morally demanded men to not partake in acts such as the Crucifixion, yet the Crucifixion was metaphysically of His doing and will.

Exodus 20:13
Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Acts 4:27-28
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

There it is. If you are familiar enough with Scripture, you will see with these verses that God has determined by His will and caused by His power the Crucifixion - man's greatest act of evil in history.
You are just trying to throw up a smoke screen to deny the obvious. Does God desire man's obedience in every situation?

Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord?”

God would never have had to implement sacrifices if men never disobeyed. Christ would not have had to become the sacrifice in that reality.

God had a plan, A solution for disobedient humanity. Nowhere does it say that disobedience was his doing. God brings about redemption using even mens sin, but that's not determinanism. God reacts to what he knows men will do.
 

Rudometkin

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Lol, your God is a liar.

Somebody is a liar. My God is Truth.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

God creates ha-adam out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo), and thus man is created free.

Are you sure it doesn't mean man is created under God?
 

Rudometkin

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You are just trying to throw up a smoke screen to deny the obvious.

No, I used Scripture to correct you. It is crucial to know the difference between smoke and substance.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 

Renniks

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No, I used Scripture to correct you. It is crucial to know the difference between smoke and substance.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Yet none of those verses support your theology.
 

Renniks

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Somebody is a liar. My God is Truth.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.



Are you sure it doesn't mean man is created under God?
you may freely eat of every tree of the garden but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,
Yes, a god that tells you not to do a thing, but causes you to do just that, is a liar.
 

Rudometkin

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Interesting perspective. Can God decide not to see some future events? I am hesitant to say either way myself. I don't see how God can not know everything in advance, seeing as time is something he created and there's no time in space, at least not in the same sense as time on earth. But on the other hand, being all-powerful, God would seem to be able to restrict his abilities to see all happenings at once. Which is why I am still stuck somewhere between Arminianism and Open Theism...

With being all powerful and all knowing, and not being able to deny Himself, God cannot restrict His own nature. Therefore, He must know everything past, present and future.
 

Rudometkin

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Perhaps you misunderstood.

Far from teaching that God controls everything, as some maintain, this verse contrasts what the Lord controls with what he chooses not to control. Humans can and do make their own plans, but the Lord directs how those plans get worked out. This does not imply that God meticulously controls everything humans do as they seek to live out their plans, only that he steers our paths in ways that best fit his purposes. God will use even wrong actions to bring about good, but that's not his desire. God's desire, as scripture tells us, is for us to be confirmed to Christ's image.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2

Obviously not everything is God's will.

I am especially cautious of your interpretations of Scripture, as with a little finesse, you admitted:

I can literally make the Bible say anything
 

Rudometkin

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Context, God must not deny his nature. Doesn't have anything to do with his knowledge of events.

Omniscience is God's nature.

1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.