Thank you for making your view more clear to me, but does this answer my question for you?
Robots and Will Worshipers
- Thread starter Rudometkin
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Thank you for making your view more clear to me, but does this answer my question for you?
Love the post @DNB ,
Free will is very dangerous but, like you I believe it is necessary so as to NOT mechanically Honor Him but to willingly, properly and genuinely love Him as our heavenly Father. He want's to be approached with humility of heart, our recognition of who He is, our gratitude, our worship...even though we in our tiny little minds cannot hardly conceive of His greatness!
As far as Calvinism and their TULIP doctrines, yes...they do have their certain verses they use and it DOES sound like we have no choice but then, there are so many more that outright tell us we DO have free will as well as all the implied verses. I simply cannot understand how a true Calvinist cannot ever look an un believer in the face and tell them that God loves them because they do not believe God loves all and Christ died for "all". Just steals hope and joy really.
God Bless
Sabertooth
Well-Known Member
- Sep 17, 2019
- 1,203
- 1,129
- 113
- 62
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
It means that He does not micro-manage us.
When you are Omni-[everything] you don't need to do so to stay in control of the Big Picture.
He can easily alter His actions in response to ours to get the end result that He wants.
Our mortality and the consequences of sin are both self-limiting.
So you believe He does not control everything, since if he does not micro-manage men, He does not control every aspect of their lives.
God is omnipotent. This means all powerful. Do you believe that man has any power of his own to even exist? Or is our existence contingent on God's power?
Behold
Well-Known Member
The force of Life, is Christ.
All life is upheld by the Power of Jesus, who is :" all things were made by Him"... Colossans 1:16, and Jesus the Creator of the World... John 1:10.
Life exists because God who IS Life, exists.
Truth exists for the same reason.
Jesus said of man....>"know you not that you are gods"?
And we are, but we are not the Creator, and we are not the Word.. We are "gods' in the sense of being made in the image of God.
So, within this, is God-Likeness, and freewill is a part of this God likeness that we possess.
Sabertooth
Well-Known Member
- Sep 17, 2019
- 1,203
- 1,129
- 113
- 62
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Is that all that you got from my post?
If you look closely at your TV or computer monitor, you can discern their pixels, but not their "big picture."
If you take a step back, you can see the "big picture," but become oblivious to its elements, the said pixels.
(Human eyeballs have limited resolution, too.)
Does your current paradigm allow for both truths simultaneously? (If not, this will remain a paradox to you.)
No, it is not everything I got from your post, but it is everything I needed from you to find your answer to my question. I'm using logic to help your post 'answer' my question.
What you write about your worldview is appreciated, because I might learn from it, and I can, in principle, go back and study it at any time.
As for your question regarding those simultaneous truths regarding the pixels, yes. But the small picture and the big picture don't contradict eachother. The small picture is a part of the big picture.
Free will and determinism do contradict eachother. If one is true, the other must be false.
Are you interested in perhaps eventually answering my other, most recent question?
My view requires that only God has free will. He says that He does what He pleases, no one can stop His hand, and there are none like Him.
If you mean that my view requires that man has free will, then please demonstrate how that is so. Otherwise it is just an assertion.
(Does God have primary and secondary reasons? or just ultimate reasons?)
If you think in principle, that a man's praise to God is feigned merely because God caused the man to praise Him, then you ought to be logically consistent and also think that the man's life is feigned merely because God caused the man to live. Then what will you have? You will be forced to either affirm that man's life is not genuine, and then you would need to question how God could save a man's life if the man's life is not genuine, or perhaps how He could accept a man's faith if the man is not a genuine man, and so on; or, discard the entire notion that man's praise is feigned merely because God caused it, altogether.
Instead of these things being labeled as feigned or manipulated just because God caused them to happen, these things should be labeled as genuine precisely because God caused them. To think otherwise is to subscribe to severely man-centered thinking, and to reject that God is the source of meaningfulness.
Hi Nancy, thank you very much!
Yes, I think that when the Calvinists so emphatically speak of the sovereignty of God, they overlook the significance of His ability to create beings in His own image - implying amongst many other things, man's innate sense of judgement and self-determination. Like you said (explicit and implicit verses), the most over-arching principle throughout the Bible, is God's demand of obedience, and what will ensue depending on man's reaction. This does not sound like a hypothetical or frivolous command on God's part, or some sadistic ploy to watch humans become frustrated in their efforts. But rather, an extremely serious exhortation for man to behave according to his God-given ability to do so, or suffer the consequences.
And, you're right, how does one resolve evangelization efforts if salvation is already pre-determined, and especially in regard to those who went to their death for it? And, as you said, how does one deal with an obstinate unbeliever, '...oh well, I guess that you're not one of the elect anyhow...'?
As you stated, love can only be authentic and meaningful, only if it is based on sincere and voluntary sentiments. Therefore, free-will is an extremely powerful and joyous gift, a true blessing from God - but again, power is a double-edged sword. In other words, if you want to enjoy eternal life and love in God's realm, then it demands that all who take part have free-will, ...but now, the trouble starts...
Sorry if I posted this to you already, and i pasting this from a previous discussion that I had on this same topic, but here is my understanding of the compatibility between what I believe to be the paradox of God's sovereignty, and man's free-will.
I believe that between God's sovereignty, foreknowledge and omniscience, he knows exactly who are his, or, who will do what, in any given circumstance, before the beginning of time. And thus, he has created the environment that is conducive to expose those, who by their own volition, will either accept or reject the Gospel of Christ, accordingly, whether they are aware of it or not.
God knows us better than we know ourselves, just as Jesus knew who would abandon him, despite the culprits declaring and insisting otherwise. This does not mean that anyone was forced, possessed, or wired to act in a particular manner. Wisdom just gives the possessor of it, that insight. Just as a parent knows their children, better than the kids know themselves. And therefore, they control the environment in order to bring out the best for them.
Sovereignty + Free Will.
Last edited:
Donald Trump, for example, the stupid monkey-idiot (just so you know where I stand), created a distinct dichotomy between people all over the world. When a man choses a wife, outside of pre-arranged circumstances, we assume that he has reasons for his decision. We all have met countless people throughout our lifetimes, some we like, some we love, some we tolerate, and some neither of any of the three for the worse.
Is all of this contrived, or are they deep and heartfelt emotions, substantiated with reason (ask anyone to justify their affections, and they will). Whatever God did in creating the universe and all that it contains, men clearly experience growth and maturity that is entirely contingent and consistent, with their environment and circumstances. There is somewhat of a pattern in the development of the character in all men, it is not arbitrary and outside of reason how a a particular child becomes the adult that they are. Life takes its course outside of the direct intervention of God, this is how He decided and architected the progression of human development to be.
Now, again, there are those who mature at different levels and rates as opposed to their peers. There is a predisposition involved, but not necessarily one towards salvation. God chose that there will be a diversity of characters in His Son's Kingdom.
Last edited:
Sorry, Behold. I cannot tell if that amounts to a logical 'yes' or 'no' to my question. I'll propose a logical conclusion against one of your own premises that uses another one of your premises, that you are welcome to deal with.
Christ has all power, therefore men have none. This means that men have no power to think on their own. They need God to provide their thoughts for them. Men do not have free will.
Yes, it seems to be such an elementary principle that this whole 'qualifying dispensation' that we are under (as far as I am concerned), is predicated on the necessity to weed out the sheep from the goats. And such an assessment must be based on a fair judgement - otherwise it's absolutely meaningless. As you said, the Calvinists have their Biblical grounds for their initial position, but it is not balanced with other undeniable Biblical precepts and implications, ...not to mention the self-evident aspect of human nature.
...round and round we go...
Thanks!
Behold
Well-Known Member
Im not certain why you would think that being a King, removes the will of the people to think.
You are trying way too hard to avoid what is obvious.
Listen, God did not create Robots.
For example, are you able to not agree with anything im saying, by choice?
And continue?
So, what is causing that?
= Freewill
See, you are created to have the ability to make DECISIONS, and this is not God causing your decisions.
That is you choosing.
That's "freewill".
I'm not certain why you reduced Christ's title to a mere "King" after I attacked freewill. Where did "all power" go from your writing? Also, it is not my position that people's wills have been removed. It is that people's wills continuously depend on God to exist, so God provides the state of existence that the will is in, at all times. In this view, man does not have a free will from God. God creates and controls man and man's mind for His purpose.
How are you defining "power"?
Really? How do you measure the amount of effort that someone puts in, and how do you know what they're putting their effort into, without them telling you? I'd like to know, because this would be a useful tool. Are you just guessing? But then why are you stating it like it's truth? Would that be fair of you? How hard is 'too' hard? Do you mean that people should try to avoid what you think is obvious, with minimal effort? How do you know I'm not putting in minimal effort to refute you? Please justify your statement, otherwise it is just an assertion, and I can easily make the same types of unjustified assertions against you:
You are trying too hard to avoid the obvious. That is why you wrote 250 words when I asked two simple questions, and I still don't have a clear answer from you.
Assertions are fun!
Where is God in your thinking?
Whereas I appeal to God's power for causation, you appeal to freewill for causation. But as you said earlier, Christ has all power. So where did Christ go in your thinking?
So, you avoid providing simple answers to my questions, and judging by your case above, you must believe that it is impossible for God to control two people to make them interact with eachother. Am I wrong?
Last edited:
Whetstone
Member
Yep, he very much did. Granted they are very complex and wondrous robots, but they are robots nonetheless.
It must please God to create this "game" and create so many of them and confine them to a planet and have them be totally dependent on various things. Perhaps he was just bored of the infinity of the universe and needed a kind of goldfish bowl of humans to watch and tend. Who knows?
It should be obvious to anyone that we are robots, constructs and that we are by no means in full control of our selves.
Want proof? Just go make a small cut in your skin, a paper cut maybe, doesn't matter. That done, now tell me how are you consciously healing yourself? How are you making your blood stop from leaking out and how are you manufacturing the special substance that knits your skin back together?
The truth is you have no idea. "You" are not doing it. Your robotic body is doing it and there's nothing you can consciously do to stop that healing process short of physically obstructing it and keeping the cut open. YOU are NOT in control. You are merely a passenger inside a robotic construct. So yes, God very much did create a planet of robots.
Worse still those robotic constructs are fickle, vulnerable, easily damaged, they get sick, they age and decay.
All of which is not to deny "God" but rather to realise that we must frame him/her/it in a different way to conventional wisdom.
Behold said:
This is a fallacy imo. The fact that your mind can not comprehend the infinite myriad of factors which are all impacting everything you do does not make your actions freewill. It's like saying a pair of dice have the freewill to roll which ever way they like. They can't. They roll ALWAYS according to the forces impacting on them. Humans and indeed everything else act according to the forces constantly acting upon them. You're on this forum and posting here because of such impacts. You have no choice. Even if you were to try to disprove that by logging onto say an Islamic forum you would be doing so as a direct result of this very conversation. Action reaction. Cause Effect.
Once an external entity sets in motion one or more forces on objects in a contained system it starts a chain of effects that are effectively perpetual. All the results occur according to the laws of physics and chemistry and all the rest and are utterly inevitable. If you jump up in the air it is inevitable that you will come back down. You have no free will in the matter. That you jumped in the first place was the result of a myriad of other contributing factors that occurred, some in your brain, some external to it.
That is why "God" knows all because everything is predetermined, he knows all the rules and forces in play and has a computational power that we can not fathom. From the very first moment of the universe, everything was predictable and known and hence has already happened. The past, present and future are all one. All laid out in front of God. He made it, set it in motion. It's a goldfish bowl.
Whetstone
Member
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
Jeremiah 29:11
"In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps."
Proverbs 16:9
"Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails."
Proverbs 19:21
Any way you cut it, the game is rigged, God is in total control, he holds all the cards and his will is going to prevail no matter what we think or want.
That is why in my honest opinion most Christians don't know how to pray and are engaging in what is almost blasphemy when they do so.
Because to accept that god is omniscient and omnipotent is to concede that nothing, absolutely nothing happens without both his knowledge and awareness and his say so / permission.
Thus to pray for your aunty Mabel who is dying of some terminal disease is to pray against the will of God. She is sick by God's knowledge and permission and if you think an all-loving God would engage in such things in order to either teach aunty Mabel or you a lesson then imho your mind is sick. No loving God would cause such harm to others just to teach people lessons any more than a loving parent would infect their own child with leukaemia because they disobeyed something they had ordered. So you have to concede either that either there is no all-powerful all-loving God or that it's all just part of some mega plan that we can not comprehend and must like it or lump it.
Thus praying for Aunty Mabel to get better is blasphemy because you are actively praying for God to stop his will, to change his plan, to do something that was not his will. You are saying "God I do not accept your will and I want it to be changed".
If we believe the conventional wisdom then the only way to pray is to say "God, I accept what has happened and whilst I do not understand it, and whilst it hurts me terribly, I pray that you will tell me what part I need to play in your will, in your plans".
Hence the Lord's Prayer
"Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven"
Also this is imo the reason that the Bible tells us not to busy ourselves acquiring riches and material things because none of that is part of God's plan (unless it specifically is) and inevitably anything you make, do or acquire will get undone when God's plan just rumbles relentlessly on.
Thus many people who have spent their lives building up businesses and a bed of financial security for themselves have just been totally wiped out and annihilated simply through God allowing a pandemic to happen and all of its outfall.
It's hard not to stray towards Nihilism TBH because nothing we do matters. God has all the power and control and is going to impose HIS will regardless of anything or anyone else. The game is rigged from the outset. It's like walking onto a football pitch knowing that God controls the ball and will determine the final score regardless. All rather pointless.
But it must in some way please God to run that game whilst being the all-controlling force. Like I said it must be like some kind of goldfish bowl or aquarium. Nothing any of us can do about it. Ours is not to question why. We are robots, pawns on the chess board. We have zero control, zero power, zero influence. We have no free will because the game is rigged from the outset. It's all quite bizarre really.
Jeremiah 29:11
"In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps."
Proverbs 16:9
"Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails."
Proverbs 19:21
Any way you cut it, the game is rigged, God is in total control, he holds all the cards and his will is going to prevail no matter what we think or want.
That is why in my honest opinion most Christians don't know how to pray and are engaging in what is almost blasphemy when they do so.
Because to accept that god is omniscient and omnipotent is to concede that nothing, absolutely nothing happens without both his knowledge and awareness and his say so / permission.
Thus to pray for your aunty Mabel who is dying of some terminal disease is to pray against the will of God. She is sick by God's knowledge and permission and if you think an all-loving God would engage in such things in order to either teach aunty Mabel or you a lesson then imho your mind is sick. No loving God would cause such harm to others just to teach people lessons any more than a loving parent would infect their own child with leukaemia because they disobeyed something they had ordered. So you have to concede either that either there is no all-powerful all-loving God or that it's all just part of some mega plan that we can not comprehend and must like it or lump it.
Thus praying for Aunty Mabel to get better is blasphemy because you are actively praying for God to stop his will, to change his plan, to do something that was not his will. You are saying "God I do not accept your will and I want it to be changed".
If we believe the conventional wisdom then the only way to pray is to say "God, I accept what has happened and whilst I do not understand it, and whilst it hurts me terribly, I pray that you will tell me what part I need to play in your will, in your plans".
Hence the Lord's Prayer
"Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven"
Also this is imo the reason that the Bible tells us not to busy ourselves acquiring riches and material things because none of that is part of God's plan (unless it specifically is) and inevitably anything you make, do or acquire will get undone when God's plan just rumbles relentlessly on.
Thus many people who have spent their lives building up businesses and a bed of financial security for themselves have just been totally wiped out and annihilated simply through God allowing a pandemic to happen and all of its outfall.
It's hard not to stray towards Nihilism TBH because nothing we do matters. God has all the power and control and is going to impose HIS will regardless of anything or anyone else. The game is rigged from the outset. It's like walking onto a football pitch knowing that God controls the ball and will determine the final score regardless. All rather pointless.
But it must in some way please God to run that game whilst being the all-controlling force. Like I said it must be like some kind of goldfish bowl or aquarium. Nothing any of us can do about it. Ours is not to question why. We are robots, pawns on the chess board. We have zero control, zero power, zero influence. We have no free will because the game is rigged from the outset. It's all quite bizarre really.
Thanks for joining, Whetstone.
If you prayed it, then it was God's will that you would pray it all along.
If you are going to think of praying for something as going against God's will, then it might benefit you to be logically consistent and also think that to pray for forgiveness of sins is also going against God's will, since you were willed to be a sinner. But then, do you not think you would be rejecting the Gospel?
Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Similar threads
