Robots and Will Worshipers

[Rudometkin]

Try reading Jeremiah 18, the potter and clay chapter.

There’s no individual persons on the potters wheel - it’s the nation of Israel...

You're missing the whole point. You've got man-centered theology. Where is God in your theology? Letting man take the wheel?

The Potter (God) doesn't form individual persons? Then who does? The clay forms itself? No. The Potter forms the clay. We are all clay. God is the Potter.

2Ti 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. (Job 14:4)

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)

God determines whether we are vessels of honor or dishonor. "Cleanse myself" is relative language. If I "cleanse myself", it is really God who worked in me.

It’s what we do that determines if we become vessels of honor or dishonor.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Romans 9:21)

You appear to say, "No! We take the potter's wheel for ourselves!"

I know the fact that it is our will that’s involved there, is very inconvenient to Calvinism and to the philosophy of fatalistic determinism known as reformed doctrine.

Our will is involved, but it is not any part of the driving force. God is the driving force.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) (Romans 9:11)

 

[farouk]

Prepare to meet a "sadistic monster".

Even you must believe God is the ultimate cause of all things. As, if He never created, nothing would have happened. Why don't you be consistent with your objections against God, and claim that Him creating people while knowing sin would occur, makes him a sadistic monster?

I don't call God the Father of lies, as He doesn't lie. For you, if God causes Satan to lie and calls Satan the father of lies, you are openly in disagreement with God. This shows your lack of reverence for Him.

He is the Righteous author of sin. So what? It is Good for him to cause anything for His Good purpose. He does what He wants. Good is defined by what He does.

You think God can do something to make Him a sinner. This is just silly, and shows your lack of reverence for Him. Who do you think holds God accountable? You seem to be trying to hold Him accountable.

@Rudometkin There is a lot of name-calling, isn't there? but it's undoubted that Scripture contains a lot of evidence for BOTH the sovereignty of God AND for the responsibility of man, (whether or not certain labels and historic terminology are used).

 

[farouk]

You're missing the whole point. You've got man-centered theology. Where is God in your theology? Letting man take the wheel?

The Potter (God) doesn't form individual persons? Then who does? The clay forms itself? No. The Potter forms the clay. We are all clay. God is the Potter.



Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. (Job 14:4)

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)

God determines whether we are vessels of honor or dishonor. "Cleanse myself" is relative language. If I "cleanse myself", it is really God who worked in me.



Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Romans 9:21)

You appear to say, "No! We take the potter's wheel for ourselves!"



Our will is involved, but it is not any part of the driving force. God is the driving force.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) (Romans 9:11)

@Rudometkin Yes, the potter/clay analogy is indeed Scriptural, isn't it? (Isaiah 64.8).

 

[Rudometkin]

Well…in a sense I can agree God causes men to make choices…
I would not have ever begun learning the obedience of trust if He had not opened my eyes to see that He existed. I would have gone on until death not believing He even existed. But when He healed my blindness, I could then make choices to go with trust or go with worry. I can now make those choices every day. Sometimes I slip in trust.

Is it you alone who chooses to have peace, or is it God who sends you a spirit of peace?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Is it you alone who chooses to have peace, or is it God who sends you a spirit of peace?

I did not choose to give me the Holy Spirit!

As for peace, I do often realize I’m worrying rather than trusting and I set my mind again to trust and peace returns.

 

[farouk]

Is it you alone who chooses to have peace, or is it God who sends you a spirit of peace?

@Rudometkin Oh I'm sure there overwhelming Scripture evidence for the second option there....

(Especially when one considers the strife and discontent of the human heart, naturally speaking...)

 

[Rudometkin]

I did not choose to give me the Holy Spirit!

As for peace, I do often realize I’m worrying rather than trusting and I set my mind again to trust and peace returns.

I can relate. There are times I also worry rather than trust. It is good to trust God. But it is God who works in me to trust Him. (Philippians 2:13)

I don't attribute my trust in him to be an action of some kind of "free will" that I am said to have. Do you?

 

[Rudometkin]

@Rudometkin Ephesians 1 also has a very strong sense of the sovereignty of God in His gracious purposes in Christ.

You are right. Thank you for getting me to read Ephesians again!

@Rudometkin PS: In the same vein, John chapter 6 has a strong sense of both the sovereignty of God and human responsibility.

Do any specific verses from John chapter 6 stand out to you?

@Rudometkin A Biblical discussion of the sovereignty of God can be very wholesome and timely...

I agree, that is why I am curious what convinced @stunnedbygrace my intentions were poor.

This is a debate thread after all.

 

[Rudometkin]

@Rudometkin

Great post!

It's all of Him, right?

"When this passing world is done
When has sunk yon glaring sun
When I stand with Christ on high
Looking o'er life's history
Then Lord shall I fully know
Not till then how much I owe

When I stand before the throne
Dressed in beauty not my own
When I see thee as thou are
Love thee with unsinning heart
Then Lord shall I fully know
Not till then how much I owe

When the praise of heaven I hear
Loud as thunders to the ear
Loud as many waters noise
Sweets as harps melodious voice
Then Lord shall I fully know
Not till then how much I owe

E'en on earth as through a glass
Darkly let thy glory pass
Make forgiveness feel so sweet
Make thy Spirit's help so meet
E'en on earth Lord make me know
Something of how much I owe."

Robert Murray M'Cheyne

Right! This post has me wondering. Do we have a thread for biblical poems yet?

 

[Rudometkin]

Yes there is a reason I see it that way.

Great! Would you mind sharing the reason with me?

I don't consider my intentions for this thread to be poor.

 

[farouk]

Right! This post has me wondering. Do we have a thread for biblical poems yet?

@Rudometkin Well, the Psalms are often poetic in form...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I can relate. There are times I also worry rather than trust. It is good to trust God. But it is God who works in me to trust Him. (Philippians 2:13)

I don't attribute my trust in him to be an action of some kind of "free will" that I am said to have. Do you?

im less rigid than you. When I stumble in trust, it was myself who stumbled, God didn’t push me. And on the one hand, He knows how weak I am and He knows all the areas in which He is renewing my mind and He is merciful, patient and forgiving with me. On the other hand, He has given me a lot of understanding and He asks more of me because of that. And I can hold all of that in my mind, together, and not have a cow over any part of it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Great! Would you mind sharing the reason with me?

I don't consider my intentions for this thread to be poor.

No, I don’t want to share that right now.

 

[Rudometkin]

im less rigid than you. When I stumble in trust, it was myself who stumbled, God didn’t push me. And on the one hand, He knows how weak I am and He knows all the areas in which He is renewing my mind and He is merciful, patient and forgiving with me. On the other hand, He has given me a lot of understanding and He asks more of me because of that. And I can hold all of that in my mind, together, and not have a cow over any part of it.

I'm genuinely curious... What if you believed it is God who ultimately causes you to stumble for good purpose? Would you accept that and worship Him for it?

This reminds me of the Scriptures with different perspectives on the same event, which show that God caused Satan to provoke David.

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (2 Samuel 24:1)

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (1 Chronicles 21:1)

God moved David to number Israel by causing Satan to provoke him. This idea of God using evil spirits for His own Good purpose is not foreign to the Bible (1 Kings 22:23).

David could've said, "God didn't push me, Satan did." Whatever language is used, God was Rightously behind it, causing Satan to provoke him. I believe David was later humbled, wasn't he? I see God working all things for His purpose to be Glorified. I don't see any supposed "Free Will" in David stumbling.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)

 

[Rudometkin]

@Rudometkin There is a lot of name-calling, isn't there? but it's undoubted that Scripture contains a lot of evidence for BOTH the sovereignty of God AND for the responsibility of man, (whether or not certain labels and historic terminology are used).

Yes, there was a lot of name-calling there.

I am happy that man is held responsible. Because if we weren't, we would not need Jesus. I enjoy my relationship with Jesus.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm genuinely curious... What if you believed it is God who ultimately causes you to stumble for good purpose? Would you accept that and worship Him for it?

I don’t think God causes men to stumble in trust. I do think satan can ask permission to sift them and I do think God gives him permission and knows IF they will stumble or not and I do think He will ultimately work even their stumbles to their good and grow them.

it’s like when dad taught me to ride a bike. I took a bad spill first time out and was angry that he promised he wouldn’t let go but then let go! and I got my knee banged up and decided I wasn’t going to learn to ride a bike. I was too scared to try again. But after a few days I wanted to try again and I listened to what I had done wrong, made him promise to not let go again, then ended up agreeing he could let me go. Did my dad CAUSE me to fall on purpose? Did he shove me over?

 

[farouk]

Yes, there was a lot of name-calling there.

I am happy that man is held responsible. Because if we weren't, we would not need Jesus. I enjoy my relationship with Jesus.

@Rudometkin It's interesting that in John 6 for example we see evidence of both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility in one verse, 37: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

 

[farouk]

What if you believed it is God who ultimately causes you to stumble for good purpose?

@Rudometkin I think of Job: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him". True trust means allowing God to use apparently bad things that happen for His ultimate purpose and glory.

 

[Triumph1300]

Hmm...is man able to truly have free will to obey or not when the human heart is the most deceitful of all things and desperately wicked?

The lord created and gave to man the gift of free will. He could easily have made us like robots programed to do His every bidding, but he didn't, because He made us for the purpose of relationship and Love, both of which are only possible in world where we have to power to choose.

 

[Timtofly]

Oh good grief I just realized this thread is from 2020. Talking to my foolish SELF!! LOL.
I'm not going to bother with anymore pages. It was started in the wrong spirit for sure.
Sorry for unintentionally bringing it to the front.

It was already posted on a few days ago.