Romans 6:9-11

[Alethos]

What was crucified on the tree?

The Apostle Peter told us that the Lord Jesus "bare our sins in his body on the tree". This symbolically takes us back to the Law where a scapegoat (animal) represented the bearing away of the sins of the Israelites that were ceremonially laid upon him, to a land not inhabited (Lev. 16:21).

Jesus Christ has done this for us in that our sins can now be forgiven. But to do so, Jesus had to be identified with us, and so become representative of us. For this reason Jesus was of our nature, we have seen such expressions of Jesus "this body of sin" (Rom. 6:6), being "made sin" (2 Cor. 5:21), "made a curse" (Gal. 3:13).

Therefore figuratively speaking he "bare our sins in his body", he "bare our iniquities", and he "bare the sin of many" (Isa. 53:11).

I strongly suggest you resist all temptation to ignore these vital expressions found in the Son of Man. For within them is found life and peace; your very existence depends on the atoning work of Jesus Christ.

Jesus being manifested in our nature one identical with those he came to serve; the declared in his life the spiritual mechanics of putting to death the lusts of the flesh (crucified) in order that the divine attributes might be revealed within. So we read that Christ "put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, and that in consequence of having put it away, when he comes a second time it will be "without sin unto salvation" (Heb 9:26-28).

I ask you a question one which “may” help you better understand this work on the cross.

Could it possibly be said that our actual personal transgressions were put away 2000 years ago?

You may like to think upon this and meditate deeply upon its meaning. The expression put away sin by the sacrifice of himself” can only refer to sin in relation to himself at that time represented in his body, in putting off the "body of sin" the body he was burdened with during all the “days of his flesh” Heb 5:7. Human nature is described as “sin's flesh”, and it was this flesh which was crucified on the cross, and after resurrection the Lord was clothed with divine nature (1 Pet. 1:4). It is with great immeasurable joy that these negative expressions can never be applied to him. He is forever the manifestation of Glory and by this very Glory God has called us through His son 1 Peter 5:10 and given us life.

This could not have taken place without a representative sacrifice, as the shepherd of the sheep, God had revealed to all humanity the seeming anomaly that since the advent of sin, the way to life is through death. Such is the great wisdom which is so sadly lost on this world that God would be victorious in and through His Beloved Son.

What Christ did, believers must attempt. Paul taught that "he died unto sin once" (Rom. 6:10); and in context with that statement, he exhorts "likewise reckon ye yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom 6: 11). The principles of the sacrifice of Christ should be manifest in action, and not merely proclaimed by doctrine.

Amen

 

[Foreigner]

Did Jesus benefit from his own death?

Yes or no will suffice.

-- Yes. He fulfilled His Father's will.

He did not need to die for His sins because he didn't have any.

 

[Alethos]

-- Yes. He fulfilled His Father's will.

He did not need to die for His sins because he didn't have any.

Yes i agree, but what of his sin nature? I see no acknoweldgement above of the atoning work done in his nature. Rom 6:9,10,11 & 2 Cor 5:21

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him (Jesus), that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

"That the body of sin"

This term is symbolic of the flesh we all share...it is also defined as the "the old man". These terms refer to our natural body’s in which the power of sin resides; its like a dormant force ready to be awaken through lust and temptation.

If you go over the Col. 2:11 we find a similar phrase which teaches we must deny, despoil, or "put off" the "body of the flesh" (the RV and others eliminate the words "of the sins"). This is done when we make our emotions fall under the will of God.

You will see here a contrast between "the body of sin" compared to the "doing of sins".

“The body of sin” describes the condition of our mortality, for we all are "conceived in sin" Psa. 51:5, we had not choice in the nature of our birth and we learn over time the sentiments of the flesh are communicated in our nature, so that when we sin it is felt in the body!

Jesus Christ possessed this same body of "sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3), being "made sin for us" (2 Cor. 5:21), that he might "condemn sin in the flesh" (i.e. he understood mortality in himself). We are told Jesus "planted" (see Rom 6:5!!) his "old man" (mortal nature) in death, so must we. This is done ceremonially through baptism; and ultimately in a change of our nature to immortality, when mortality ("our old man", the "body of sin" etc) will no longer exist in us.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

quote name='Foreigner' timestamp='1305557710' post='111079']
I don't get a lot of time online during my busy day.

Is there perhaps a Reader's Digest Condensed Version of what you are trying to say.

I have no desire to read multiple paragraphs just to see if I MIGHT be interested in what is being said.
[/quote]

Foreigner,
After six days of silence I can only assume you are not willing to enter these Scriptures (Rom 6:9,10,11). Psa 119:130

Unfortunately you are not alone in this forum as many others dare not go here. Maybe the doctrine is too strong, maybe these a hard sayings? Whatever it maybe I pray many you will at least search them out privately, and may the Father open your heart to thiese wonderful truth's.

Our Master was "tempted" in all points yet foundd without sin. Heb 4:15 in crucified in the weakness of sinful flesh that you Foreigner may have life and have it more abundantly.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Rom 6:6 We know that our old self (man) was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

"The Body of Sin"

This body is one which his prone to sin as we have established in Christ himself (Rom 8:3 & 2 Cor 5:21) The physical body, which is prone to sin had been destroyed for Christ...we await the change.

The Greek Word "Soma" (body) may also be translated "slave"...for instance while we dwell in the earthly body we are a slave to it we have no rights of our own Rom 7:25 speaks of Pauls frustration while wrestling with the law of sin in his members. Paul acknowledges his mere "body" is like a slave which can be bought and sold.

Jesus in his own body has done away with...or "rendered the flesh powerless" Gr "katargeo" = to make inactive. Unlike Jesus we are not called to literally destroy this body of sin but to emulate Jesus Gal 5:24.

Because of Jesus we are no longer slaves to sin...which in many ways Jesus being mortal was a slave to the effects of sin, for he too was under the condemnation of death..but now no longer..he lives for God.

His example of crucifying the lusts and passions of the flesh is work however we will never be asked to destroy this in our own bodies..that work has been done.

Alethos

 

[Episkopos]

Rom 6:6 We know that our old self (man) was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

"The Body of Sin"

This body is one which his prone to sin as we have established in Christ himself (Rom 8:3 & 2 Cor 5:21) The physical body, which is prone to sin had been destroyed for Christ...we await the change.

The Greek Word "Soma" (body) may also be translated "slave"...for instance while we dwell in the earthly body we are a slave to it we have no rights of our own Rom 7:25 speaks of Pauls frustration while wrestling with the law of sin in his members. Paul acknowledges his mere "body" is like a slave which can be bought and sold.

Jesus in his own body has done away with...or "rendered the flesh powerless" Gr "katargeo" = to make inactive. Unlike Jesus we are not called to literally destroy this body of sin but to emulate Jesus Gal 5:24.

Because of Jesus we are no longer slaves to sin...which in many ways Jesus being mortal was a slave to the effects of sin, for he too was under the condemnation of death..but now no longer..he lives for God.

His example of crucifying the lusts and passions of the flesh is work however we will never be asked to destroy this in our own bodies..that work has been done.

Alethos

I think I see where Truth is going with this. He is drawing us to the truth of Jesus' actual humanity and need to follow Jesus both in His death AND resurrection in order to partake of the fulness of the grace that is offered to us.



Here is my understanding on the matter...

The flesh nature (old man) is not the flesh itself, but an operating system that is devoid of any other power but itself. This power must die. The old nature is already condemned. But did Jesus have this old nature within Him? A human body is distict from a nature that animates it. The body itself is weak...but the Adamic nature is evil itself. Was Jesus born with the old Adamic nature within Him?

The new nature in Christ is a new operating system in the Spirit that causes one to walk as Christ...AFTER the old operating system has been made innefectual. ( this is through an ongoing living sacrifice of a daily death)

Now Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are...yet without sin. The flesh is weak and craves things that must be overcome. But the sin nature wars against the Spirit. There is a distinction here I think. Was Jesus born with (what the Catholics call) "original sin" ?

I think not.

So was Jesus born with the old nature in Him as well as His divine nature? Or was He born with what we know as the "new" nature alone?

I hope you will understand what I'm trying to say here!

In other words Jesus was modeling and perfecting the creation of a NEW MAN through the divine nature. But Satan had NOTHING in Him unlike we ourselves.

The old nature is already connected to the devil. So could Jesus have been born with an "old man" to crucify?

 

[Episkopos]

I see that we take on the nature of our father. As Jesus said...you are of your father the devil. Jesus Christ kept pointing to His Father....the living God.

If Jesus was born with 2 natures then would He not have been a brat as a child...etc... that is, until He was old enough to sort out the different natures.

But this would have made Jesus a sinner as we are (or were).

So can we agree that Jesus was born with ONE nature (God's) but had still to contend with the weakness of the flesh?

Jesus overcame the temporal flesh and walked perfectly all His days. But did Jesus Christ have to overcome an inherited nature from Adam?

I don't think so!

We can only be born of one nature at a time. That is why Jesus didn't need to be born again...He was already born through the Spirit.

If we hold that Jesus has 2 natures in Him then when we receive Christ we are receiving a dual nature into an already fallen one we already possess. That would make 3 natures!

 

[Episkopos]

Did Jesus benefit from His own death?

Of course not! We are the beneficiaries of His sacrifice according to the will of God. We are also the beneficiaries of His resurrection, without which we would still be trapped as slaves to sin...His sacrifice notwithstanding!

 

[Alethos]

Did Jesus benefit from His own death?

Of course not! We are the beneficiaries of His sacrifice according to the will of God. We are also the beneficiaries of His resurrection, without which we would still be trapped as slaves to sin...His sacrifice notwithstanding!

Thanks Episkopos

Firstly I would say its rare to find a Christian who takes an interest in the atoning principles, well done...I fear for many here who do not understand "how" they are saved.

Did Christ benefit by his own blood?

The answer must be yes.

Christ himself is revealed as coming under the efficacy of his own death:

Heb 13:20 "The God of peace, who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT".

This is stated even clearer in Heb 9:12 "Neither by the blood of goats or calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us".

You will note the words “for us” are not in the original text.

"Neither by the blood of goats or calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption".

In Phil 2:8 we the same idea "He became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him." The lesson here is that Jesus Christ benefited by his own death (through obedience) was exalted by His Father having submitted freely to His Will.

In other words Jesus exalted position in the Heavens was a result of his own blood. The atoning principles prescribed by God effected his elevated position in the Heavens, without such "blood", "body" and "death" he could not be redeemed to His Father.

But more importantly it was "through" his blood he was highly exalted.

What is the meaning of all this?

Are we prepared to open our minds to the revelation in the “blood”, “body” and “Death” of the Lord Jesus Christ?

The Law was given as a shadow institution of the things to come, all of which was fulfilled in the life and death of Christ. For the Scripture tells us in Gal 4:4 that Jesus was born under the Law that he might fulfil its requirements, upholding the entire ordinance’s in and through his life and death. Also compare 2 Cor 5:19,20,21 Rom 8:3.

Jesus being born under the Law has dual application in that Jesus was redeemed as a man, he was also "redeemed" from the Law of Moses, and from the "curse" of that Law. Important to note the Law itself was not evil (it was holy, just and good Rom 7:12,13,14; however, the Law brought into focus and highlighted man's sin; so it came to stand, by metonymy, for sin, which God placed upon His son.

We stand in awe of the Master in this matter as all the men who went before him failed in this regard to uphold the requirements of the Law of Moses but also withstand the Law of Sin and Death within himself.

Alethos

 

[Episkopos]

Thanks Episkopos

Firstly I would say its rare to find a Christian who takes an interest in the atoning principles, well done...I fear for many here who do not understand "how" they are saved.

Did Christ benefit by his own blood?

The answer must be yes.

Christ himself is revealed as coming under the efficacy of his own death:

Heb 13:20 "The God of peace, who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT".

This is stated even clearer in Heb 9:12 "Neither by the blood of goats or calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us".

You will note the words “for us” are not in the original text.

"Neither by the blood of goats or calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption".

In Phil 2:8 we the same idea "He became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him." The lesson here is that Jesus Christ benefited by his own death (through obedience) was exalted by His Father having submitted freely to His Will.

In other words Jesus exalted position in the Heavens was a result of his own blood. The atoning principles prescribed by God effected his elevated position in the Heavens, without such "blood", "body" and "death" he could not be redeemed to His Father.

But more importantly it was "through" his blood he was highly exalted.

What is the meaning of all this?

Are we prepared to open our minds to the revelation in the “blood”, “body” and “Death” of the Lord Jesus Christ?

The Law was given as a shadow institution of the things to come, all of which was fulfilled in the life and death of Christ. For the Scripture tells us in Gal 4:4 that Jesus was born under the Law that he might fulfil its requirements, upholding the entire ordinance’s in and through his life and death. Also compare 2 Cor 5:19,20,21 Rom 8:3.

Jesus being born under the Law has dual application in that Jesus was redeemed as a man, he was also "redeemed" from the Law of Moses, and from the "curse" of that Law. Important to note the Law itself was not evil (it was holy, just and good Rom 7:12,13,14; however, the Law brought into focus and highlighted man's sin; so it came to stand, by metonymy, for sin, which God placed upon His son.

We stand in awe of the Master in this matter as all the men who went before him failed in this regard to uphold the requirements of the Law of Moses but also withstand the Law of Sin and Death within himself.

Alethos

An interesting point!

Yet Jesus "risked" all in abandoning His former high station only to receive the authority back again that He had previously laid down. Albeit now as the first born of a new creation that opens the possibility of bringing many sons to glory!.

It depends on one's viewpoint I think.

I think the "for us" is amply implied especially considering that there was nothing forcing Jesus to be born in the flesh. He came to save us. His name is more exalted now because of what He has done. But this is because it was done for others. He didn't have anything to prove or pay for unless we are talking of His vow to redeem mankind from the slavery to sin and death they were trapped in. He didn't need to redeem Himself. It was all glory for our Master!

So do you believe that Jesus was born with 2 natures as per my previous posts?

Did He carry the Adamic nature in His earthly body as well as His own divine nature?

 

[Alethos]

I think I see where Truth is going with this. He is drawing us to the truth of Jesus' actual humanity and need to follow Jesus both in His death AND resurrection in order to partake of the fulness of the grace that is offered to us.

Here is my understanding on the matter...

The flesh nature (old man) is not the flesh itself, but an operating system that is devoid of any other power but itself. This power must die. The old nature is already condemned. But did Jesus have this old nature within Him? A human body is distict from a nature that animates it. The body itself is weak...but the Adamic nature is evil itself. Was Jesus born with the old Adamic nature within Him?

The new nature in Christ is a new operating system in the Spirit that causes one to walk as Christ...AFTER the old operating system has been made innefectual. ( this is through an ongoing living sacrifice of a daily death)

Now Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are...yet without sin. The flesh is weak and craves things that must be overcome. But the sin nature wars against the Spirit. There is a distinction here I think. Was Jesus born with (what the Catholics call) "original sin" ?

I think not.

So was Jesus born with the old nature in Him as well as His divine nature? Or was He born with what we know as the "new" nature alone?

I hope you will understand what I'm trying to say here!

In other words Jesus was modeling and perfecting the creation of a NEW MAN through the divine nature. But Satan had NOTHING in Him unlike we ourselves.

The old nature is already connected to the devil. So could Jesus have been born with an "old man" to crucify?

Rom 8 presents only one fleshly nature and two ways (operation) of thinking.

1. One Flesh Nature -- Carnal mind

2. Spirit Mind (Externally sought)

Therefore we find Paul speak concerning the warring between the carnal mind (flesh) and the Spirit mind (Logos of God) in Rom 8.

Fleshly minded people manifest actions of the flesh however those who are Spirit minded manifest action from the Spirit. Enmity or hatred has been placed between these two ways of thinking as to keep them separate one from the other. It was this enmity or hatred, which Jesus did away in his body & mind. Eph 2:15-18 Heb 2:14,15 Heb 4:15 2 Cor 5:21 Rom 8:3 Rom 6:9,10,11 and so on....

The old man must be "renewed in knowledge" day by day (2 Cor. 4:16) else he will revert back to his carnal or animal way of thinking. One must feed upon the Spirit Word to develop this mind as did the Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 2:52) who dwelt in the flesh Gal 4:4 and was constantly reminded of the carnal thoughts within him. Luke 22:42 (my will = carnal mind one which desires to have its way with Christ)

The Flesh and Spirit both share a thought process. One is based on the sentiments of the flesh which Christ consistency crucified Gal 5:24 and the other reasons upon the divine mind based on principles from above Col 3:2.

The expression "to be spiritually minded" is another form of words to describe the process of God-manifestation. The characters and motivation of all men and women must be measured against the touchstone proverb: "as he thinketh in his heart, so is he" (Prov. 23:7) — or, as Rotherham renders it: "as he hath thought in his own mind, so is he".

There is only one flesh which is owned by sin; it’s here which sin and death reigns – Jesus was very sensitive to the evil desires within him and for that reason he did not see himself as “good” thou he was morally perfect! Mark 10:18 - Yahweh is the only source of inherent goodness...and Jesus understood that without his Fathers Word he would be a carnal thinking animal being without hope in this world. Jesus brought his mind into subjection to that revealed in the Spirit-Word, and direct his ways accordingly.

Only in this regard will the flesh be overcome -- the carnal mind, the "thinking of the flesh" endeavors to assert itself, it may be effectively crushed by the power of the Spirit-Word brought into action against such thoughts. Such an awareness of the reality of this struggle must continue with all who would gain the kingdom. Paul says, "the flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary, the one to the other" (Gal. 5:17). Such is the absolute reality of faith

In this we are presented with only ONE kind of flesh and ONE kind of Spirit Word and when together they are at war with each other.

This is the very “war” that Jesus in himself overcame in his body.

Speak again soon God Willing.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

An interesting point!

Yet Jesus "risked" all in abandoning His former high station only to receive the authority back again that He had previously laid down. Albeit now as the first born of a new creation that opens the possibility of bringing many sons to glory!.

It depends on one's viewpoint I think.

I think the "for us" is amply implied especially considering that there was nothing forcing Jesus to be born in the flesh. He came to save us. His name is more exalted now because of what He has done. But this is because it was done for others. He didn't have anything to prove or pay for unless we are talking of His vow to redeem mankind from the slavery to sin and death they were trapped in. He didn't need to redeem Himself. It was all glory for our Master!

So do you believe that Jesus was born with 2 natures as per my previous posts?

Did He carry the Adamic nature in His earthly body as well as His own divine nature?

I say this will all due respect but the scriptures are silent to the pre existence of Christ. I think this is why you would "need" to hold the understanding of two natures...which again are not spoken off on the Scriptures of Truth.

If you put your belief of Jesus being God to one side the Atonement will shines forth its light...otherwise its irreconcilable and its power is lost.

For how can God dwell in something made sin? 2 Cor 5:21.

He cannot...only his son was able to accomplish this work.

Alethos

ps I suggest you read and study Romans 8...everything is made clear here.

 

[Alethos]

Hi again Episkopos,
You may like to read my on going study of the atonement found at Sin & Death

Feel free to make comments as you please.

In the Masters Service

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Rom 6:1,2

"How shall we, that are dead to sin"

Its rather logical that in the death state a person can no longer be tempted to evil nor succumb to its demands. Sin can only take place in "living" flesh and nowhere else (certainly not angels!) Because Angels are not flesh and blood but living Spirit eternal, everlasting creatures they also cannot die nor are they under the sentence of death. So as we know the divine law placed upon man is “the wages of sin is death” Rom 6:23 and angels cannot die that also implies they cannot sin. Sin is ONLY found in human flesh as derived from a nature inherited by the original pair.

There is no foundation given among men nor prescribed in the Bible for angels sinning. Any scriptures one might use to support such doctrine is yet to search out this matter.

Angels are not under condemnation and do not have a law working in their members which is sin working, else all Angels would be able to sin and we would have chaos in Heaven as on Earth. The reward for the saints is not one of condemnation!!!

This is utter foolishness and unscriptual.

The fallen angel teaching is eronous to say the least, and those who perport its teaching do not at all understand the nature of man, or Christ...they certianly do not understand the Angelic Host.

Angels are NOT called upon to crucify lusts, and put them to death (Gal. 5:24). Angels cannot lust and again the source of lust if flesh (Rom 8:3)and Angels are spirit. Flesh is the sphere where Sin (i.e., the lusts of the flesh, Rom. 8:3) reigns supreme, but in Jesus we make our flesh the sphere of Righteousness (read Rom. 2:14-15; 8:13. 1 Pet 2:24). We are naturally found in a condition of being dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13; 1 Tim. 5:6) in which Sin is victorious; but in Christ we are called to be conformable unto his death (Phil. 3:10), by crucifying the lusts of the flesh that war against the demands of the Truth (Gal. 5:24; Rom. 8:13; Col. 3:5; Gal. 2:19-21), and living unto Christ (Col. 3:3; 2:20; 2Tim. 2:11).

Up next...How was sin humiliated in Jesus Christ?

 

[Alethos]

The Sin introduced by Adam, and found today in our nature is challenged, defeated and, ultimately (at some future time) be totally destroyed. This is the very determinate Will of God at the cost of His beloved Son (2 Cor 10:5). What God did in Jesus was provide a way to change our slavery and allegiance. We no longer serve sin which leads to permanent death Prov 21:16 but now we are called to serve Christ in the sphere of life, however in doing so we enter a fierce warfare which requires our every effort to successfully combat temptation and sin. The Greek is in the past tense: "who died unto sin" (RSV, NASB), and relates to a particular moment when the death to Sin was accomplished. Paul has the action of conversion and baptism in mind, as the next verse shows. But that death is only figurative; our corrupt nature, though challenged, is not eradicated, and too frequently we find ourselves in temptation. The final phase of our death to Sin awaits the day when our sin-nature will be replaced by spirit-nature, and no longer will Sin have any effect upon us whatsoever!!

The removal of our current flesh nature will result in us being perfect beings and in singleness of mind serve the Father in perfection of Holiness. The carnal mind will be removed and the hostility along with it. Meanwhile, since we still possess human nature, which constantly wars against the mind of the spirit (Rom 7:23), we must maintain an active opposition to the Sin "that dwelleth in us" (Rom 6:17).

"Live any longer therein?" Rom 6:2

Our life must reveal that we have changed masters from sin to Christ. We cannot be "double minded" (Jas. 1:8), with one foot in both camps. We cannot serve God and mammon (Mat. 6:24; Lk. 16:13). A profession of being Christ's requires that we abide within the sphere of his righteousness, and discard our former residence with Sin. This does not mean that we will not transgress, for the impact of the sin-nature still remains; but it does mean that confession of sin will be made by which a repudiation of the power of sin is expressed and thus, we no longer live (abide with) sin as a way of life.

 

[Episkopos]

Rom 8 presents only one fleshly nature and two ways (operation) of thinking.

1. One Flesh Nature -- Carnal mind

2. Spirit Mind (Externally sought)

Therefore we find Paul speak concerning the warring between the carnal mind (flesh) and the Spirit mind (Logos of God) in Rom 8.

Fleshly minded people manifest actions of the flesh however those who are Spirit minded manifest action from the Spirit. Enmity or hatred has been placed between these two ways of thinking as to keep them separate one from the other. It was this enmity or hatred, which Jesus did away in his body & mind. Eph 2:15-18 Heb 2:14,15 Heb 4:15 2 Cor 5:21 Rom 8:3 Rom 6:9,10,11 and so on....

The old man must be "renewed in knowledge" day by day (2 Cor. 4:16) else he will revert back to his carnal or animal way of thinking. One must feed upon the Spirit Word to develop this mind as did the Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 2:52) who dwelt in the flesh Gal 4:4 and was constantly reminded of the carnal thoughts within him. Luke 22:42 (my will = carnal mind one which desires to have its way with Christ)

The Flesh and Spirit both share a thought process. One is based on the sentiments of the flesh which Christ consistency crucified Gal 5:24 and the other reasons upon the divine mind based on principles from above Col 3:2.

The expression "to be spiritually minded" is another form of words to describe the process of God-manifestation. The characters and motivation of all men and women must be measured against the touchstone proverb: "as he thinketh in his heart, so is he" (Prov. 23:7) — or, as Rotherham renders it: "as he hath thought in his own mind, so is he".

There is only one flesh which is owned by sin; it’s here which sin and death reigns – Jesus was very sensitive to the evil desires within him and for that reason he did not see himself as “good” thou he was morally perfect! Mark 10:18 - Yahweh is the only source of inherent goodness...and Jesus understood that without his Fathers Word he would be a carnal thinking animal being without hope in this world. Jesus brought his mind into subjection to that revealed in the Spirit-Word, and direct his ways accordingly.

Only in this regard will the flesh be overcome -- the carnal mind, the "thinking of the flesh" endeavors to assert itself, it may be effectively crushed by the power of the Spirit-Word brought into action against such thoughts. Such an awareness of the reality of this struggle must continue with all who would gain the kingdom. Paul says, "the flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary, the one to the other" (Gal. 5:17). Such is the absolute reality of faith

In this we are presented with only ONE kind of flesh and ONE kind of Spirit Word and when together they are at war with each other.

This is the very “war” that Jesus in himself overcame in his body.

Speak again soon God Willing.

Alethos

Thanks for your response.

I must again draw a distiction here about the sin nature and the flesh itself. These are not the same.

The carnal mind is the mind that NEVER KNEW God. The carnal mind is alien to God. So how could Jesus fight the carnal nature within Himself?

The fact is that Jesus Christ fought the carnal nature on the outside...He Himself was unaffected by the effects of alienation from God WITHIN Himself. He suffered the contradiction of sinners on the outside. He Himself knew NO contradictions within Himself.

I feel in an effort to draw attention to the humanity of Jesus (which I commend!) you are going too far the other way in neglecting the divinity of Jesus Christ...which is necessary for Him to be a life giving Spirit. A mere man cannot overthrow the condition of all other men.

So Jesus is not of the order of Adam...but of God Himself...divine.

Jesus overcame the limitations of the flesh. He knew pain, loneliness, temptations etc...We not only experience these things in our mortal state but also a carnal mind (if we are not in the Spirit). Again we are NOT to overcome the sin nature. That is done at the cross. But we are to overcome in the flesh as Jesus has done.

But Jesus Christ was never divided within Himself. The only time He was abandoned by the Father was on the cross and this in ordere to pay for the sins of others!

I say this will all due respect but the scriptures are silent to the pre existence of Christ. I think this is why you would "need" to hold the understanding of two natures...which again are not spoken off on the Scriptures of Truth.

If you put your belief of Jesus being God to one side the Atonement will shines forth its light...otherwise its irreconcilable and its power is lost.

For how can God dwell in something made sin? 2 Cor 5:21.

He cannot...only his son was able to accomplish this work.

Alethos

ps I suggest you read and study Romans 8...everything is made clear here.

Romans 8 is not the history of the internal condition of Jesus Christ...but it is OUR own process of becoming like Christ.

We have a choice. if we have received of the new nature.

Do we surrender our lives daily and walk in the Spirit. Or do we do as other men and walk in our own power?

This most certainly was NOT the condition or race of Jesus. He was not running to attain to Himself.


Jesus Christ IS. Or as He says...Before Abraham WAS.... I AM!

What Jesus had to overcome was the LIMITATION impossed by being in a weak vessel such as our bodies are. He also suffered the lack of faith of those around Him.

He marvelled at the lack of faith in others. He did not suffer the same lack as they.

It pained Jesus to see the hatred the multitude had for Him. They hated Him. Yet they followed Him when it suited them. Such contradiction of sinners! Jesus Christ loved and loves. How can this indifference to love in others not cause great pain and anguish in He through whom all things were created?

 

[Episkopos]

The Sin introduced by Adam, and found today in our nature is challenged, defeated and, ultimately (at some future time) be totally destroyed. This is the very determinate Will of God at the cost of His beloved Son (2 Cor 10:5). What God did in Jesus was provide a way to change our slavery and allegiance. We no longer serve sin which leads to permanent death Prov 21:16 but now we are called to serve Christ in the sphere of life, however in doing so we enter a fierce warfare which requires our every effort to successfully combat temptation and sin. The Greek is in the past tense: "who died unto sin" (RSV, NASB), and relates to a particular moment when the death to Sin was accomplished. Paul has the action of conversion and baptism in mind, as the next verse shows. But that death is only figurative; our corrupt nature, though challenged, is not eradicated, and too frequently we find ourselves in temptation. The final phase of our death to Sin awaits the day when our sin-nature will be replaced by spirit-nature, and no longer will Sin have any effect upon us whatsoever!!

The removal of our current flesh nature will result in us being perfect beings and in singleness of mind serve the Father in perfection of Holiness. The carnal mind will be removed and the hostility along with it. Meanwhile, since we still possess human nature, which constantly wars against the mind of the spirit (Rom 7:23), we must maintain an active opposition to the Sin "that dwelleth in us" (Rom 6:17).

"Live any longer therein?" Rom 6:2

Our life must reveal that we have changed masters from sin to Christ. We cannot be "double minded" (Jas. 1:8), with one foot in both camps. We cannot serve God and mammon (Mat. 6:24; Lk. 16:13). A profession of being Christ's requires that we abide within the sphere of his righteousness, and discard our former residence with Sin. This does not mean that we will not transgress, for the impact of the sin-nature still remains; but it does mean that confession of sin will be made by which a repudiation of the power of sin is expressed and thus, we no longer live (abide with) sin as a way of life.

The victory over sin is not figurative. It is an experience of one whose flesh nature has been rendered inoperative through the removing of it's power through an experience of the cross.

Victory over sin is NOW.

Those who experience this death can experience the resurrection life of Christ here and now.

The experience of the cross is a total experience. One cannot be crucified a finger at a time. It is all or nothing with God.

So when we are dead to sin, we are alive to God. We then walk as He walked on the earth.

1 John 2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Jesus walked in the light of God on the earth. IF we walk in the light (not figurative light but power light) as HE is in the light...we have divine fellowship!!!

sadly there are not many who even believe in the power of the gospel anymore let alone the experience of it. So the walk of Christ is a very lonely one.

But then again, Jesus was very lonely too!


As Jesus Christ is, so are we in this world (1 John 4:17)

Maran Atha

 

[Alethos]

The victory over sin is not figurative. It is an experience of one whose flesh nature has been rendered inoperative through the removing of it's power through an experience of the cross.

Victory over sin is NOW.

Those who experience this death can experience the resurrection life of Christ here and now.

The experience of the cross is a total experience. One cannot be crucified a finger at a time. It is all or nothing with God.

So when we are dead to sin, we are alive to God. We then walk as He walked on the earth.

1 John 2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Jesus walked in the light of God on the earth. IF we walk in the light (not figurative light but power light) as HE is in the light...we have divine fellowship!!!

sadly there are not many who even believe in the power of the gospel anymore let alone the experience of it. So the walk of Christ is a very lonely one.

But then again, Jesus was very lonely too!


As Jesus Christ is, so are we in this world (1 John 4:17)

Maran Atha

You are referring to our position being placed "in" Christ by faith. Our final victory will be the removal of deaths dominion over us.

You say that you have vistory of sin now! true in part...and yet you will die!...Rom 6:23.

While we are held under Grace we are yet to the change as a result of that faith. 1 Cor 15:52

Alethos

"For I Am Carnal" (Rom 7:14)

It is a fallacy that we only die because of sin and not recognise that condemnation to death came from an inherited nature which Jesus and all men who are born of a woman share Gal 4:4. All people including Jesus were under the sentence of death.

The truth is that, since sin entered into the world, all Adam's progeny, including the Lord Jesus Christ, are born into a constitution of sin ( Rom 5:19). All are therefore born with a nature which is subject to death. 'This is a misfortune, not a crime". .

Christ, as bearer of our nature (Heb. 2:14,15,16,17) lived under the "dominion" of death during his mortal lifetime.

Firstly, the inevitability that we will commit sin, because of the weakness of the flesh; secondly, that, even if we could overcome the first difficulty, we would still be left with a nature "which is doomed to death" (Rom 7:24, Roth.). Note especially Paul's use of the present tense: "I am carnal..." (Gr. eimi, "I am" — Bull.). He does not say: "I was" (i.e., "before I came into the Truth"). From this point on to the end of the chapter, Paul speaks of his actual state at the time of writing. Of the word "carnal" (Gr. sarkinos) Vine says: "consisting of flesh; or, pertaining to the natural, transient life of the body". Hence, "I am fleshly" (Young's Lit., Diag.); "I am earthy" (TCNT), "I, however, am a creature of flesh" (Roth). This is clear. But perhaps Paul is saying more than this. Is he contrasting his own lowly, humiliated state with the godly origin and essential holiness of the law? Most versions suggest this, rendering the passage: "The law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual". It is obvious that he is confessing to having a natural state which was "dragging" him "down to death" (Rom 7:24). Only God could deliver him from this condition, so he "thanks God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Alethos

 

[Episkopos]

[sup]16[/sup]When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: [sup]17[/sup]That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.





[sup]Is. 53:5[/sup]But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Jesus did NOT bear his own sins or sin nature. He bore ours!

It is not Christian doctrine to suggest that Jesus bore His own sins or had a sin nature of His own to overcome.